One of the key issues that the coronavirus pandemic underscores is that economic systems such as the patchwork mess called capitalism are completely incapable of dealing with the social, political and economic fallout. Stresses such as war, famine, disease etc are all potential causes of social unrest and then social upheaval. Economic theory is incapable of taking these things into consideration because economic theory or rather, economic theology, treats the transactions that occur within society as independent of society. Not only is this false, it is dangerously false.

Organization of society utilizing the tool called government must be considered from both the so-called 30,000 foot level and on the ground, close up. Economic theology does neither of these things. The false prophets of economic theology and their rabidly fervent laity refuse to acknowledge the complexity of interconnectedness.

In the end, far too many people pay the price except those who remain behind the screen poring over arcane texts and counting money while publishing bullshit about "socialism!, communism!"

progressiveconnie Wrote:

Science and all its creations benefited humanity in so many ways during the last 3 centuries.

The discovery of the benefits and variety of uses for fossil fuels saved the whales and also made life easer, safer and more pleasant for humanity and doubled the life span of our kind but these blessings came at a high price because the heat from these fossil fuels began accumulating in the atmosphere and heating up the earth and oceans to the point today all life on earth is threatened but science has begun creating new products like solar panels, wind turbines and water power to deal with the problem of over heating.

Plastics and toxic chemicals proved to be only a temporary blessing because plastics are not biodegradable so the planet has become overwhelmed with mountains and islands of plastic in the sea that is killing marine life all over the planet and the answer to this horrific tragedy is simple produce products that are biodegradable..

Toxic chemicals like Roundup are killing the bees, butterflies, birds and other pollinators and are also poisoning our food, water and soil and shredding the web of life so the people of the earth are now choosing organic approaches to this deadly problem.

Science also gave us the blessings of immunation to prevent childhood diseases and prevent other deadly health problems so fewer children died and people lived longer but the people of earth refused to control their birth rates and today 8 billion people live on our finite overheating, overpopulated planet with diminishing resources which can only result in chaos in human affairs.

The question is; "In the future will science prove to be a blessing or a curse for future generations?"

The answer to your question is “yes”. Humans, at least human societies as currently constructed do not live in awareness of connectivity nor in acknowledging the law of unintended consequences. This can be seen everywhere. Some countries do better than others but overall the grade is failing. Far too much is made of technology and power welders claiming that they can save the world. At the same time those power wielded do not want to change the system that has caused and exacerbated the problems as though more of the same will solve everything.

I give the system 50-100 years before collapse of the nation-state.

Dutch Wrote:

Lonely, I guess we both are right; Trump is absorbing the "characters" of both bad apples; It can't be any worse than that; the only difference with Putin and Hitler was, that Hitler indeed fought and conquered an big slice of the world, but Putin only got some small pieces by now. Also he's not gotten what Stalin had, like up to West Germany , which made up the Soviet Union of that time; which is gone now. Thus both Hitler and Putin "idea's" are embedded in Trumps head; it can't get any worse!!

Bolton in his book said that the guy is awful stupid and knows nothing; which is the pure truth.

Dutch Wrote:

Not all writers had any experience under Hitler or Stalin; there is an lot of difference in "ruling". Trump may be wants something like Putin, but actually follows in Hitlers footsteps. Communism is something else than Facism. Trump does not want "communism" since it means that you also have to give the lower classes food on the table as communism dictates, he rather gets "rid" of them.

Under Hitler you could make everyone your slave and work in the war industry; it was pure "facism"; "Deutschland Uber Alles". The only goal is/was "power" over the people and the "world" as Trump also does (I alone can do it; he thinks he can dictate the world), like any dictator, king, czar etc. Putin is not really expanding Russia right now, but Hitler did in an big way.

Careful, Dutch. Putin doesn’t want to expand Russia? He claims Belarus and the Ukraine are part of Russia. Putin is NOT a communist. He is a RW authoritarian. He also rails against Jews, gays, the decadent West. Under Stalin, who attempted to expand the USSR by invading Poland, the same conditions regarding work in the war industry and the Gulag after the war applied. Today Putin casts Russia as both the strong standard bearer of civilization notably focused against gays and their alleged domination of Western Europe and the U.S. while simultaneously claiming Russia is in danger and surrounded by enemies. He also has successfully cultivated ties with the Russian Orthodox Church thereby playing the God card.

Regarding expansion beyond Belarus and the Ukraine, Putin has dreams of “Eurasia”.

Trump favors dictators. While Trump may have read Mein Kamph his actions and belief structure more closely mirror the fascism of Putin, Duterte, Orban and Bolsonair.

Don’t get me wrong. Trump is a disgusting piece of trash who emulates the fascists of today. Putin is his main role model in today’s world.

Dutch Wrote:

lonely bird Wrote:

I do not disparage the courage of those wading ashore or dropping from the skies behind the lines.

That being said for too long we have been fed the agitprop that "WE" saved the world from Nazism. A little closer inspection is needed. The USSR, our so-called ally, had engaged in the destruction of eastern Europe hand-in-hand with Hitler until Hitler turned on Uncle Joe Stalin, the one-time informant for the Czarist secret police. When that happened Stalin looked to the west to ally himself with the enemies of Hitler. FDR counted on something which undercuts the mythology of "we saved the world from Nazism" and that something was the USSR hemorrhaging blood. And hemorrhage they did. To the tune of millions dead. The Eastern Front in Europe had already collapsed when we invaded on D-Day.

As for Trump? He does not want to be Hitler. He wants to be Putin. I suggest Timothy Snyder's "The Road to Unfreedom".

I don't agree with your last line; sorry Trump copies everything Hitler did; however for the "Jews" he selects other "victims".

Putin is an lot smarter than Hitler and knows how to play the game as an ex KGB member. Hitler was as Trump, loves big crowds, both never "studied" at school, but knew it all, likes to lie to the people about this country being "number one" just like Hitler saying : "Deutschland uber alles" ( I've not heard Putin say that) Also Hitler had an "vacation home" just like Trump. Thus if you compare Hitler with Trump; they are about 90% the same. By the way can you imagine Trump sitting "naked" on an white horse in the cold as Putin does.

Schmidt Wrote:

lonely bird -- I didn't read that book, but I did read his shorter "On Tyranny".

For those interested, here are two more extensive Amazon customer reviews of Snyder's "The Road to Unfreedom".

https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R2J0F3SL51BLQ1/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_viewpnt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0525574468#R2J0F3SL51BLQ1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R25RZL4V7DTZ9V/ref=cm_cr_getr_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0525574468

I am plowing through The Road to Unfreedom (about halfway though it right now). I also bought On Tyranny.

In its own way the politics of inevitability can be almost as bad as the politics of eternity. We must struggle against both.

I do not disparage the courage of those wading ashore or dropping from the skies behind the lines.

That being said for too long we have been fed the agitprop that "WE" saved the world from Nazism. A little closer inspection is needed. The USSR, our so-called ally, had engaged in the destruction of eastern Europe hand-in-hand with Hitler until Hitler turned on Uncle Joe Stalin, the one-time informant for the Czarist secret police. When that happened Stalin looked to the west to ally himself with the enemies of Hitler. FDR counted on something which undercuts the mythology of "we saved the world from Nazism" and that something was the USSR hemorrhaging blood. And hemorrhage they did. To the tune of millions dead. The Eastern Front in Europe had already collapsed when we invaded on D-Day.

As for Trump? He does not want to be Hitler. He wants to be Putin. I suggest Timothy Snyder's "The Road to Unfreedom".

bludog Wrote:

Up to 2012, Camden, New Jersey had one of the highest crime rates in the nation. And Camden police were deemed, by city government, to be terminally corrupt. They were regularly committing atrocities, filing false reports and planting fake evidence ... And getting away with it. The Camden police department was dissolved in 2012 and started over in 2013.

In 2013 with the opening of the new Camden Police Department, a transformative policy went into effect. Violence was to be a last resort when enforcing the law. Officers were trained in crisis de-escalation while the warrior-mentality was actively discouraged.

Police show up and acted friendly with residents at public social events and even ride Mr Softee trucks, mingling with customers. They knock on doors and introduce themselves. And they now march with residents at protests, instead of breaking them up. In addition, many more people of color than previously, were included in the Police Force to look more like many of the people for who they were responsible. As much as possible, Police became part of the community.

THE RESULT:

In the seven years since the New Police Department has been in existence, crime has gone down in Camden, NJ, by almost 50%.

cnn.com/2020/06/09/us/disband-police-ca...

The "decline" of this board is not surprising. I have been on Radiofreeliberal since it was created after the Ed Schultz Show Message Board shut down. It too has the same problem. There a few regulars who are there all of the time and then a group who wonder by once in a while. The same applies to hypercrites.com

The only boards that I know of that are long running and still have significant traffic are Democratic Underground and Liberalforum.org.

I think that these forums run in cycles. I was on a couple that folded up as well.

That being said there is nothing wrong with wanting more participants. I am not sure how to generate more traffic. I do appreciate that there is discussion of topics that are politically philosophical in nature here. There is none of that on some boards.

that guy in AZ Wrote:

Here's another song repeating:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp5JCrSXkJY

Here are the lyrics:

There's something happening here
But what it is ain't exactly clear
There's a man with a gun over there
Telling me I got to beware

I think it's time we stop
Children, what's that sound?
Everybody look - what's going down?

There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
Young people speaking' their minds
Getting so much resistance from behind

It's time we stop
Hey, what's that sound?
Everybody look - what's going down?

What a field day for the heat
A thousand people in the street
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly saying, "hooray for our side"

It's time we stop
Hey, what's that sound?
Everybody look - what's going down?

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
Step out of line, the man come and take you away

We better stop
Hey, what's that sound?
Everybody look - what's going down?

We better stop
Hey, what's that sound?
Everybody look - what's going down?

We better stop
Now, what's that sound?
Everybody look - what's going down?

We better stop
Children, what's that sound?
Everybody look - what's going down?

Now ...

Let's fast forward to today:

President Donald Trump threatened to deploy United States military unless states halt violent protests.

Trump said he was recommending that governors deploy the National Guard in sufficient numbers to “dominate the streets."

If governors fail to take action, Trump said he will deploy the United States military and “quickly solve the problem for them.”

https://azdailysun.com/news/national/trump-threatens-to-deploy-military-if-states-dont-crack-down-on-protests/article_4432a393-efc2-519f-8391-ea29f7143f36.html#utm_source=azdailysun.com&utm_campaign=%2Fnewsletter-templates%2Fbreaking&utm_medium=PostUp&utm_content=45a94b82f74e4877b12ff5f0b84f4d821d8882aa

Not surprisingly, there is also a 2020 version of this song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CPA-k_Ry2o

"For What It's Worth (Stop, Hey What's That Sound)" (often referred to as simply "For What It's Worth") is a song written by Stephen Stills. Performed by Buffalo Springfield, it was recorded on December 5, 1966, released as a single on Atco Records on December 23, 1966, and peaked at No. 7 on the Billboard Hot 100 chart in the spring of 1967.

It was later added to the March 1967 second pressing of their first album, Buffalo Springfield. The title was added after the song was written, and does not appear in the lyrics

Although "For What It's Worth" is often considered an anti-war song, Stephen Stills was inspired to write the song because of the Sunset Strip curfew riots in November 1966—a series of early counterculture-era clashes that took place between police and young people on the Sunset Strip in Hollywood, California, beginning in mid-1966, the same year Buffalo Springfield had become the house band at the Whisky a Go Go on the Sunset Strip.Local residents and businesses had become annoyed by how crowds of young people going to clubs and music venues along the Strip had caused late-night traffic congestion. In response, they lobbied the city to pass local ordinances stopping loitering, and enforced a strict curfew on the Strip after 10 p.m. The young music fans, however, felt the new laws infringed upon their civil rights.

On Saturday, November 12, 1966, fliers were distributed on the Sunset Strip inviting people to join demonstrations later that day. Several of Los Angeles' rock radio stations also announced a rally outside the Pandora's Box club on the corner of Sunset Boulevard and Crescent Heights. That evening, as many as 1,000 young demonstrators, including future celebrities such as Jack Nicholson and Peter Fonda (who was handcuffed by police) gathered to protest against the curfew's enforcement. Although the rallies began peacefully, trouble eventually broke out. The unrest continued the next night, and periodically throughout the rest of November and December, forcing some clubs to shut down within weeks. It was against the background of these civil disturbances that Stills recorded "For What It's Worth" on December 5, 1966.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_What_It%27s_Worth

If you are paying attention, you may remember that the riots in Newark started on July of 1967. The factors leading up to the riots are still in existence today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Newark_riots