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Try this one more time

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    And so, how do we educate the 47% that actually believes the politicians? Those Romney/Ryan supporters who actually vote against their own best interests because they can't stand the idea of someone they view as an "inferior" being smarter and more powerful then they!


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    That is a question I can't answer.If I could, I imagine i could pull down mid-six figures from one of the campaigns who would love to be able to do just that...be able to open minds to FACTS and not hyperbole, to be able to convince people that their ( or at least,most peoples) best intrest rests with a government that is more concerned with the average person than with the wealthy.
    How we get there...no clue.Good question though
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    GOD BLESS AMERICA. We could certainly try some of the ideas presented here to switch (or delay) our Elections, but I am not equipped with the proper knowledge to give an answer or suggestion. I do not know if we have time, or power, to circumvent 230 years of tradition. Even in a national emergency.

    When the right wing brags about their "2nd amendment rights" -- they just happen to FORGET that they are OUR rights, too. And many of us also have a few guns at our disposal, and keep them loaded & available. And they also forget that WE OUTNUMBER THEM in a huge majority. They would be ill-advised if they think we would just bend over & grab our ankles in any confrontation. Like all previous citizens of the United States, we are READY in any emergency to DEFEND our LIBERTY. We always thought we may have to defend ourselves against foreign enemies, saboteurs, terrorists, etc. We NEVER thought we would have to defend ourselves against our fellow citizens. But after watching the right wing & their Tea party rhetoric for the last 27 years, always increasing in radicalism & venom, it may become necessary to do the unthinkable. Just like the Civil War, brothers had to fight against brothers, & North against South, & families were often ripped apart by the struggle. In actual fact, like in most wars, the people were just being "pawns" for some larger silent entity, like the wealthy plantation owners -- who were afraid of losing their revenue from the free labor of their slaves. If the slaves were freed, there goes all their "easy profits."

    In the current struggle, the wealthy would be FREE to LOOT & ROB our Treasury at will, use it all for Wars to plunder & loot the oil & resources of the rest of the world, and if a few million of our young men & women lose their lives (God forbid a George Bush or Romney would end up wearing a soldier's uniform) - then they are expendable in the glorious quest for more money and world domination. (The GOP party -- stands for Gold, Oil, and Power). There is a youtube where Daddy Bush (Geo HW Bush) speaks about his desire for a New World Order, where he uses that phrase at least 4 times, in a favorable manner). If I can find it, I will post it here later tonight. The OIL business is hands & glove with the CIA, & you can see that with Daddy Bush (Prez # 41) & with a friend of his (George DeMohrenschildt, who was also CIA and OIL). Interestingly, Geo DeMohr was also a great friend of Lee Harvey Oswald, who is accused of murdering President JFK. Later, Geo DeMohr was supposed to testify before the Congress Assassination Committee, & that very day, Geo DeMohr was shot dead, & on a business card in his wallet it said "George Poppy Bush" --- the nickname of Prez Bush # 41). Also, in the CIA archives, they found a photograph which shows that Daddy Bush (CIA) was standing in front of the Texas Schoolbook Depository Bldg (from which JFK was shot) just MINUTES after the fatal shots were fired. (Nov 22, 1963).

    These facts are part of the history of the United States, where Republicans have used every tactic & opportunity to "rig" our elections --- (as in Geo W. Bush) in 2000 & 2004, & using the WaterGate approach with Dick Nixon, and with Ronnie Reagan giving secret arms to Iran, if they would hold our US hostages (embassy staff) a while longer, so Prez Carter would not get credit for getting them released. In the current cycle, they just tell LIES all the time, to confuse & upset the people, & try to Prevent the People from being able to Vote, due to false purges from the voting rolls. Not to forget the 2 assassinations that changed history (JFK in 1963) & in 1968 (his brother Robt F. Kennedy). Both had committed the unpardonable sin of being a very popular Democrat running for President, at a time when the GOP were committed to taking over the US govt to install the Birch agenda, which is pure fascism.

    SEE the FACE of the ENEMY --- it is a vicious machine, dedicated to the destruction of Democracy, intent on a dictatorship, of world conquest, they have no feelings for our history or our natural resources, they will DESPOIL and POLLUTE every inch of this country, with their "fracking" and "oil pipelines" & their ocean "oil spills" which they have never paid for or repaired any of the damage from any PREVIOUS oil spills, such as Exxon-Valdez in Alaska in 1989. (After 23 years, still a huge mess, destroying all wildlife). THIS ENEMY (the GOP) have no conscience, no remorse, no pity, they will DESTROY, POLLUTE, send our troops into horrible DANGER, wage unnecessary WARS // & MURDER good honest people who have not committed any crimes. While they steal & loot our Treasury, give criminal BONUS pay to the worst crooks on Wall Street, & THEN set up drug pimps & drug lords in foreign nations (in our name) WITH OUR TAX DOLLARS ---- while we are supposedly training Afghani's how to point & shoot a gun? Heck, we could send a few 8 yr old kids over there to train them how to do that. Especially to tell them to "point the gun at yourself, look down the barrel, & pull the trigger." That would increase efficiency at least 500%. That way, they would all be happy, going to see Allah, & getting their 60 virgins. (All in one shot). Saves a heckuva lot of bullets & all that extra training: ) : )
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    gymrat22 Wrote:
    ajmediator Wrote: Why does Piers Morgan suddenly sound like an aspirant to a position in the Fox Newsroom. In the middle of the Hospital(s) crises where sick people are being transported to facilities that have proper electricity Piers chose to hammer the spokesmen from the hospital about their generator's failure, rather than deal with the issue(s) at hand and that was that hospitals were doing their utmost to transport people to fully functioning facilities. Piers you did yourself no credit in your rant.
    Fox almost certainly pays better.That is pretty obvious. Other wise, how could they get people to work on air there? I'd be afraid one of my (liberal,all my friends are liberals) friends would be channel surfing and see me on Fox. Oh, the shame.Thats all i can think of. Are you sure you replied to the right thread? Not that we don't appreceiate responses,believe me, we like them like a starving man likes Popyes Chicken! But are you sure you're on the right thread?
    I was rather "exercised," to used Piers' phrasing by his consistently riding on this subject. No matter that there was a week to prepare, there was just no way to secure, correct, "beef up" systems like the electric systems, drainage, etc., and an overall aging infrastructure. Wasn't it President Obama who repeated many times that fixing infrastructures of various kinds is long overdue, necessary, and in addition create jobs, jobs, jobs.
    Piers, as I recall, in England there had been quite a few messes when public utilities were taken over by private companies a decade or more back! Sewers failed, flooding, etc. So that answers the privatization issue, just in case you don't remember, and just so you know that it is not the answer. Third, the hospitals, that he was particularly annoyed with, all had suffiecent systems, with no one, but more generators, dispersed over various structures or levels. It was not the generators that failed, but the location of the fuel pumps by the generators, which for safety reasons had to be located underground, and were encased in submarine like pods. However, come hell and salt water, and those pods were breached. For some things, it's neigh impossible to provide enough redundant backup systems. (Such as nuclear reactors_ three mile island, Fukishima Daichi plant in Japan, Chernobyl, and so on. I don't care if France hadn't had an accident, though they do have not just a better reactor, but a better way of dealing with fuel rods, by recycling almost all the materials, rather than transporting them--what an idea from the Bush era--to one place, from all over the country.) At any rate, really, Piers's indignation is misplaced. If he wants to blame anyone, then let him blame the Republicans, who religiously barred any work projects that aimed at the sorely needeed restructuring countrywide project.
    Piers has a wide outlook, and that is needed on CNN. It was time, as well as the GPS, with Fareed Zakaria, to realize that there is a world out there, and it's not just about the US.
    I certainly hope he is not leaning republican beccause of things like inheritance taxes in England, which are way too high and don't preserve national treasures. Mitt Romney's game is easy to see through: lie until you are in power, and then do what the heck you want. Oh, yes, and suddenly he will work across the isle. Why hadn' the Reps done this for two years, and only obstructed, despite the obvious distress and deeper and deeper problems? The answer is because there are such great money interests there that they can let most of hte public go down the drain, because they have more than enough to keep going, and then claim Obama's results, and his direction, as their own. Not that sane people would believe them.
    AND COME ON PIERS MORGAN, AND ALL AMERICANS! DO YOU REALLY WANT A BISHOP MORMON/PRIEST (EVEN IF NOT ACTIVE NOW) with a venture capitalist firm that ships jobs overseas at the drop of a hat or dismembers companies and lets people lose jobs, insurance, and pensions?
    TRULY? A BISHOP OF THE SECRETIVE VERY VERY WEALTHYT MORMON CHURCH, WITH ITS OWN VISION OF AMERICA AS THE SECOND JERUSALEM--BUT ONLY FOR SOME, I BET, AND FURTHER, A BISHOP SO SPIRITUAL THAT HE WON'T DISCLOSE APPROPRIATELY HIS OWN TAXES BUT DOES DEMAND IT FROM HIS RUNNING MATE SO THAT MAN WON'T EMBARRASS HIM. ALTHOUGH TO ME A NARROW LITTLE MIND LIKE PAUL RYAN IS ALREADY AN EMBARRASSMEnt.
    ROMNEY APPEARS LIKE A PRIEST, WITH HIS MINCING, MEASURED, LIMITED STRIDES, HIS TURNING FROM SIDE TO SIDE, LIKE A PENGUIN--SORRY PENGUINS--AND AS THOUGH HE WERE WEARING SOME PAINFUL HAIRSHIRT OR UNDERWEAR. I AM ALSO SORRY TO SAY, THAT WHILE ANNE LOVES HER FAMILY, HER CLASS, AND HER MORMON COMMUNITY, AND SOCIAL CIRCLES, THERE IS A CLAWS OUT PERSONALITY THAT IS REFLECTED BY THE THUGGISH SON THAT 'WANTED TO PUNCH' THE PRESIDENT OUT BECAUSE HE'D TOLD HIS FATHER DURING A DEBATE THAT WHAT HE'D SAID IS 'NOT TRUE.' THERE IS NO LIMIT IN WHAT THEY FEEL IS THEIR RIGHT, THEIR EXCEPTIONALISM.
    AND AS OR THE ELECTIONS, SOME SPECIAL MEASURES MUST BE TAKEN, OR THE BANDITS WILL TRY TO STEAL THIS ELECTION, TOO.
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    Gym, The ideas I tried to lay out are the foundation of what I believe. But I am not a fanatic. I realize that we have to work with what is there for us to work with and not some nebulous ideas that at the present time have no basis in reality. I am under no illusion that another 4 years of Obama are what the nation needs. But the Two Disasters opposing him would certainly bring on much suffering if they should win. So, once again, I find myself supporting the lesser of two evils as some have called it......As for the used folks out numbering the user....that's always been the case. I'm not a Marxist, but I think he had some penetrating ideas regarding this fact. For example, he said that if the workers ever united and stood up as one force the entire edifice of capitalism would collapse. That's why the government was intent on smashing the old Industrial Workers of the World union while allowing the AFL: to continue. The IWW was calling for one big union of all workers with a goal of ending capitalism, but the AFL , by fragmenting their organizing efforts and keeping various groups of workers separate from one another posed no threat to the capitalist system.......Okay. Back to the basement. I believe that in the beginning of this American experiment the Founders were not champions of universal voting rights.....I think I've read that they wanted to maintain the class system that favored the wealthy ( them ) by requiring that a person had to have a certain amount of property or money in order to vote. This excluded laborers, indentured servants, the wandering poor etc. Of course, they had not yet had a full experience of the Industrial Revolution and all the misery that caused. And there is no doubt that the system they devised is miles ahead of the one they over threw. Over time the system has evolved , after much struggle, into one in which almost everyone is entitled to vote......Attempts to torpedo this right are now under weigh in this year's election. The right wing has proved it is not interested in "democracy". It is only interested to maintaining and solidifying its strangle hold on the economy....... Thinking about this is working me up a bit. What I usually do when this happens is pour myself a little Johnnie Walker and put some Count Basie on the phonograph. The John Walker is off limits to me these days, but Basie remains a mainstay of my existence.......Onward
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    Gym, I left out part of what I wanted to say about organizing. There is no possibility of armed opposition to this government having any chance of success. The fire power and military organization in the hands of the government is just too over whelming. But, over time, educating workers to the idea of a general strike would be a huge step forward. Prior to US entry into WW1 there were various groups in the country preaching that the US should not become involved in that blood bath. Once we entered the war the government passed the Espionage Act which, among other things, made it illegal to preach the general strike. If I'm not mistaken that's still on the books althought there isn't much danger of it being preached now a days. The IWW started what was called The Free Speech Movement and continued to speak out against our involvement. The government went after the organization. People were given long prison sentences and the president of the union was driven into exile. The IWW never recovered. The reason the government wanted to destroy that union is because its main focus.....the goal it was working toward.... was the general strike.....a strike of all workers no matter what trade or type of labor they engaged in. The union was blunt about they're ultimate aim....the end of capitalism........In our own time we experienced an almost miraculous event in France in the 1960's. A strike by students at the Sorbonne gradually grew into a general strike by all workers.The entire nation ground to a halt. After a few weeks the communist labor unions ended the strike ( probably after secret negoriations with the DeGaulle government) by telling their members to return to work. After that the strike fizzled out. But afterwards DeGaulle said that his government was within days or maybe hours of collapsing..... That's the power that workers have when they are united....and that's the reason why the US government does everything in its power to insure that we remain fragmented. European workers are far ahead of us when it comes to knowing what they're up against. .....Back to Basie.
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    This has been a great discussion. (Thanks, Gymrat). To LEFT OF CENTER: You said that the Founders did not intend for this to be a "universal" democracy, That they did not intend for ALL of us to be able to Vote --- only the wealthy & landowners were allowed to vote in the early stages. Yes, that is correct, that only the wealthy landowners were allowed to vote in the early years, and NO WOMEN could vote (for another 144 years), and NO SLAVES could vote, and NO INDIANS could vote. Absolutely correct. But it was not that way due to the desire of the founders to keep all power within their own grasp, & deny it to all other people. There was a little question of LITERACY -- you could not allow the future continuity of this infant democracy to depend on illiterate & uneducated people to make those crucially important decisions. It is hard enough NOW with free education, & all TV media, to keep abreast of all the issues we have to vote upon --- much less in the dark ages the founders lived in. (Lanterns, horse & carriages, no radio or TV, no telephones) -- it was the Dark Ages, baby. Not too many people got a great education back then. All they had to know was milking cows, riding horses, pumping water, & shooting animals for food. Few people were literate enough to VOTE, much less run for office. So the Founding Fathers put into law that only those literate enough, could vote. Landowners who could read a deed. (And this excluded women at the time).

    LADIES: Think about THIS: The year my Grandma was born, WOMEN COULD NOT VOTE IN THE USA. It was NOT way back in the Dark Ages, but right here and now in the 20th century, that Women finally were given the right to Vote --- in 1920. And most of us do not realize that those women had to march & protest, & send letters to the President, begging for the right to be heard, While marching & protesting, they were spit upon, screamed at, threatened, & put into jail, where they were often starved of food, not given water to drink, & a few were even beaten and raped by the guards. ALL to win the freedom of women to VOTE, (which many women now do not even bother to show up at the polls). (sigh) PROGRESS.
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    Flame, Thanks for the info. Literacy is a good thing to have in an electorate. An understanding of the political and economic system and how it works is even better. Too bad we don't seem to have enough of that today...... Despite saying that and I won't beat this to death....but it was still the upper crust who made the rules.....and with human nature being what it is and with the best of intentions when the chips are down it's the folks on or near the bottom who take it in the teeth.
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    united,schmidt(once...I don't expect to hear from him until Wednesday.He is an Obama vol in Colorado,I imagine he's working 20 hour days right now),left of,flame and all others who have responded to this thread.Thank you.I mean that.
    We have wandered around a bit, maybe off the exact, original subject sometimes, but that is EXACTLY what I wanted...the serious members...taking apart a problem, finding other problems imeshed within....and advancing solutions and ideas.Be nice if congress could take a lesson from the pesants...maybe this time...BEFORE we show up at the gates with pitchforks.Or 106mm recoiless rifles.I jest! I jest! Don't panic.
    And it's true, I agree(or at least hope for) most of what has been shared on this thread.
    I will make one slight argument with you leftof, even though I like you and really enjoy the give and take
    "conversations" we get into...I think that if,and only IF it comes to this...the people CAN win an extended conflict with what populates the federal government now. See, in something like that, the will to win, the understanding and being comfortable with the thought that what we are doing is both necessary for our survival...and intense anger at the (small) part of the population( I defer to flame's very valid point:we outnumber the bastards) that kicked madness like this off,when there was no need,nothing to really be gained by it....just pure,unabashed greed... a lot of times that alone will carry the day.Believe it.The will to win...the thought that we are fighting for our homes our families and our WAY OF LIFE...that would put a lot of steel into a lot of backbones. Americans don't like being lied to, taken advantage of,and used. And we as a people don't particularly like seeing it done to others.
    Again..."those who do not study history,are doomed to repeat it" (author unknwn).Between 1770 and 1776, the King of England, argueably the most powerful man on the planet at that time...made a serious mistake in judgement, in that, he underestimiated the Americans. Oops. Then to make matters worse( at least for his dumb ass) England made the EXACT same mistake not 40 years later...in the war of 1812.Taking americans for granted "oh,they'll talk, argue, but they won't do much else".....has been known in the past to be hazaradous to ones health.Not to mention chances for a long and pain free life.
    Come the 1930's and another idiot makes the same mistake...only this time, the idiot brings a friend. 2's company and all that. So this evil little man named Hitler and his buddy Tojo, well, they decide to conquor the world. One minor miscalculation...the United States of America, well, it's part of the world. And 4 1/2 years later Germany and all her possesions and ALL of japan,lay in total ruin,and the two buddies were dead. Dreadful thing,piss off and then badly underestimate Americans. We are a different people...we just are.
    And we are by nature patient, longsuffering, and by nature,we are more optomistic than pessimistict.(I REALLY got to get this Fir Fox spell check fixed,I really do)
    Please understand this also.....we are NOWHERE near that points that I speak of, as we speak. And if ( as anyone with a brain hopes!!) Obama wins in 3 days...the chances,percentage wise,of this terrible war I lay out here actually occuring in our life times...falls to practically zero. So lets examine the chances, percentage wise, of this breaking out if (God Forbid,PLEASE!!) Mittens wins. With no real way to quantify this,I personally put the chances, in our life time( the next 30 years) at between 7-10%.And that,ladies and gentlepersons...is a W.A.G.( Wild Ass Guess)
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    Gym, We can agree to argue the point when the barricades are ready to be erected, but the struggle here would not be anything like the bolsheviks attacking the Winter Palace. Once that had been accomplished they were more of less home free. But we in the US would have to face numerous enclaves of Koch brother stooges from coat to coast who are loaded down with weaponry that would make our eyeballs pop. And so far we haven't even been able to get the feeble Occupy movement up and running. But these are arguments that have traditionally fractured movements on the left. So let's agree..... all you folks who agree that radical change is needed ( and you, Gym, seem to be agreeable) to keep our eye on immediate goals and thrash out serious problems as they arise down the road apiece. Thanks. Onward.
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    Leftofcenter Wrote: Gym, We can agree to argue the point when the barricades are ready to be erected, but the struggle here would not be anything like the bolsheviks attacking the Winter Palace. Once that had been accomplished they were more of less home free. But we in the US would have to face numerous enclaves of Koch brother stooges from coat to coast who are loaded down with weaponry that would make our eyeballs pop. And so far we haven't even been able to get the feeble Occupy movement up and running. But these are arguments that have traditionally fractured movements on the left. So let's agree..... all you folks who agree that radical change is needed ( and you, Gym, seem to be agreeable) to keep our eye on immediate goals and thrash out serious problems as they arise down the road apiece. Thanks. Onward.
    Agreed.We do need radical change...and they don't even own any barricades ,let alone putting them up. Radical change...in the fundemental way that OUR government interacts with US....not necessarily the other way around...is not up for debate.It MUST come...or we as a nation will lose relevance and standing and freedoms and.....the list goes on. And this thread could,COULD be a micro example of exactly how WE get this done.Long term. Like minded people, understanding the basic foundation issues( global warming, inequieties in the wage and employment sysyem, inequieties in the insurance, banking industries....coming together and hashing out different ideas and solutions. The travesty of "Citizens United".The continued attempts on the part of a minor few on the radical right who continue to demonize poverty,disability,sexual orientation, and that list runs for a ways. And combating all this...are us,working, thinking, putting ideas out, getting feedback...trying again. We CAN and MUST do this. The Pols won't.Not in the current enviroment.Lets do it for them. And that's not even tackling the overarching ,number one issue:Politics. The buying and selling of congressional seats to the highest bidder HAS to stop, or our system grinds to a halt. Almost did a few years back, directly linked to "letting the foxes regulate the hen house". OK? Leftof has the RIGHT idea.We have the means and motovation in THIS country without having to FIRST resort to pitchforks.(actually, I don't know anyone who even owns a pitchfork anymore.We used to, somebody stole it.Or I threw it away,I was only 10 yrs old...can't remember what happened to that damn thing)

    Good thread, again, thanks to all who have taken the time to read all these posts,and mull over in your minds the issues put forth here.And in other threads on this very important forum....and especially to all those who took the time out of a busy life to share opinions and thoughts with the rest of us.This is how,maybe, I hope... we can start to dig ourselves out of this pile of shit.....and if we're really good, we'll come out riding ponies.So heres to ponies!!