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How many states will opt out of Medicaid expansion?

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    How many states do you think will opt out of the Medicaid expansion program?  According to Ezra Klein, Florida's Governor Rick Scott has already said Florida will not be participating.
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    I think that even in Florida the average voter has figured out what and who Rick Scott is!

    I doubt if he will be re-elected and I think the voters in all the states will demand participation in the Medicare program whether or not their right-wing nut case governors want to go along with it!
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    I agree with pgr.  Before the November election, several Governors will posture against it. However, as the people become more and more educated on the bill (as opposed to succumbing to the Fox News propaganda) then I think that every state will eventually participate.  It is too good of a deal not to.

    If Rick Scott holds to his vow to opt out of the Medicare extension, he will be booted out of office.  But that won't be the only reason. His popularity even before his stance on Obamacare was running very low. According to a June 2012 survey, only 31 percent approved of his performance as governor while 56 percent disapproved.

    The more he falls in the polls, the more Obama rises in the polls. Rick Scott will deliver Florida to Obama.



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    I don't know how many will opt out.  The constitution of the United States of America EXPRESSLY prohibits them from opting IN

    1:  No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
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    No one should underestimate the real angst and anger caused by the health care debacle. I think there will be as many as 15 states that will opt out. The resulting fiasco will, if we are lucky, bring about legislation that will actually be workable. Obama has made mistakes as any POTUS does---letting Pelosi and Reid highjack leadership of the bill has been his biggest 'aw shit' to date.
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    Nah, Obamacare may make the top 3 but his two biggest mistakes are deciding to escalate the war in Afghanistan, and out of control spending.

    Elected to end the wars, we could have, and SHOULD have been out of Afghanistan two years ago, at least!

    Saying he would cut the deficit then increasing the national debt by 50% and in only 3 1/2 years!.

    THOSE are his two biggest mistakes. 
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    I can agree about the war. It's un-winable as most of the ones we enter into are, needless, as they all are and a total waste of our money and the lives of those over there fighting it!

    I don't agre on the the national debt however. Obama should be spending even more massive amounts to get the economy moving again, not less. The national debt is nothing more than a Republican sponsored red herring, a total pile of BS! When we start taxing the rich they way we used to and still should be and the Republicans start supporting the country instead of trying to kill it to defeat Obama the national debt will fade away like the bad dream it is.

    We have far more to fear from the Republicans trying to stop citizens from legally voting, special interest groups being able to give unlimited funds to candidates and the conservative agenda in general than the national debt. In a few years it will take care of itself and once again be the non-issue it should be and is.
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    USG national debt is directly equal to world net-dollar savings.

    It's an account identity.

    Everybody learns this in national income accounting 101.

    Mainstream economists are like the Soviet scientists at Chernobyl.

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    Carlitos Wrote: USG national debt is directly equal to world net-dollar savings.

    It's an account identity.

    Everybody learns this in national income accounting 101.

    Mainstream economists are like the Soviet scientists at Chernobyl.




    True, but so what?  My bank & other accounts are just account entries too.  I am morally and legally bound to pay other "account Identities" I owe;  as they are bound to pay me when I am owed. This reminds me of an old tax evasion gambit popular in the mid 70's. You were to refuse to pay income taxes because your income wasn't in "real money"--it wasn't in gold or silver per Constitution. Judges who had a good sense of humor would tell the poor wretch that the government was happy to accept his 'play money' , but since it was worthless and thus no burden to the felon the judge felt duty bound to impose the maximum prison term established for the offense of tax evasion and to refer him for further prosecution for knowingly and fraudulently paying the IRS with money he knew be worthless.

    If we (USA) cannot or will not pay our just debts, to each other or other countries; if we continue to debase our currency, then we will all look back on the great recession and the great depression with fond memories. The results of that kind of catastrophe to the economy of the entire world could exceed our wildest imaginations.  Remember, the Dark Ages began as a consequence of the fall of the Western Roman Empire and that in an economy that was overwhelmingly rural and farm/barter based. In an economy built upon a framework of your 'account identities', the collapse of a major account inevitably induces a chain reaction of collapses of much, if not all, of the other accounts. Can you imagine the chaos of a rerun of splintered feudal fiefdoms complete with modern weapon systems?

    Oh Yeah;  Could I borrow a few billion from you?  I like the way you think about debt.    
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    If we (USA) cannot or will not pay our debts..."

    I think it's both.

    We "cannot" because we are way beyond broke, and it's getting worse every day. 

    We "will not" because we as a nation, and specifically our politicians are addicted to borrowing and spending.  Very few of our politicians think about anything other than themselves and their own jobs.  Future generations do not matter to them.

    Some people seem to believe that the way to get out of a hole is to dig a little deeper.  That we can spend our way out of debt. 

    I think the real world doesn't work that way.

    What happens when we run out of other peoples money?
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    USG debt is denominated in dollars.

    The USG is the sovereign issuer of the US dollar.

    Other peoples' money?

    All of these headline talking points you mentioned are a bunch of nonsense!

    Fiat currency is only a tax credit!

    THE FUNDS TO PAY OUR TAXES AND BUY GOVERNMENT SECURITIES COME FROM GOVERNMENT SPENDING!

    THE USG IS A CURRENCY ISSUER.

    How do you not get that?

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    pr Wrote: I can agree about the war. It's un-winable as most of the ones we enter into are, needless, as they all are and a total waste of our money and the lives of those over there fighting it!

    I don't agre on the the national debt however. Obama should be spending even more massive amounts to get the economy moving again, not less. The national debt is nothing more than a Republican sponsored red herring, a total pile of BS! When we start taxing the rich they way we used to and still should be and the Republicans start supporting the country instead of trying to kill it to defeat Obama the national debt will fade away like the bad dream it is.

    We have far more to fear from the Republicans trying to stop citizens from legally voting, special interest groups being able to give unlimited funds to candidates and the conservative agenda in general than the national debt. In a few years it will take care of itself and once again be the non-issue it should be and is.


    I agree, several of the wars we have gotten involved with have been unwinnable, however they have been so largely because they were run as political sideshows, complete with carnival barkers(cleverly disguised as politicians) trying to direct the shows.  War usually were fought with the intention of defeating and imposing your will on the loser, not on vague intentions to bring democracy to cultures that had no desire for such a confusing and disorderly form of government (Even though It has worked generally OK for much of the western world).  No, folks, I am not a war-loving reactionary plutocrat. I do try to see the world as it is; still hoping for better, and unsurprised at it not getting much better.

    What do we do when we take everything over some arbitrary point of 'rich' (like the proverbial person making $250,000/yr and that's not enough?  We do what is always done; we borrow until we can't borrow more; we then re-designate 'rich' to those making $50,000 or more per year.  Don't believe that?  The CBO stated that the middle-class 50k-120k per year taxpayers will pay between 60 and 70% of the increased revenue requirements of the Affordable Health Care Act--"ObamaCare".  So much for Obama's campaign promises of No new taxes for anyone making less than $250,000  per year (though later he used a $200,000 per year boundary marker for being 'rich').  Tax the really rich all you want, but don't think that will solve the problem. If you are going to be a liberal/progressive thinker and/or doer, you  need to have some answer to those kind of perceptions. Smug looks of superiority and self-righteous compassion will not keep liberals in control in a nation largely populated with devotees of 'common sense'.   Most of the voters accept as a foregone  conclusion that the nation is subject to the same economic 'rules' as their families.  That is the well from which  conservatives and many independent voters draw their water. We must convince them that what we know in our hearts is true; that Government isn't bound by the economic rules of ordinary citizens; that the government has the power, indeed the right and the duty to requisition and seize (tax) any portion of incomes they deem necessary to achieve the greater good as determined by the State. As citizens, we should be grateful to liberal/progressive leaders who struggle each day to get us all to cooperate willingly to contribute our 'fair share' to the welfare of all those who do not earn enough to be 'rich' . Only 50% of potential taxpayers actually have to pay federal income taxes today. That is a shameful statistic. Only those making over $250,000 per year (recent calls are to raise that to $1,000,000 have been floated by some of our liberal/progressive leaders) should have to pay. No one should be allowed to make more than that. If that isn't enough their other non-income assets such as second homes, large savings or retirement accounts and other unnecessary luxury baubles should be seized and sold. Argentina did that not too many years ago and they didn't disappear. Their Generals made good use of their new funds building up their military and security services to control the ungrateful population.

    PGR, you're right, we should awaken from the old bad dream and begin a new utopian dream of an empowered government unafraid to take what they need from anyone with an income or other assets.   
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    "Only 50% of potential taxpayers actually have to pay federal income taxes today.  That is a shameful statistic."

    Absolutely correct.

    How about General Electric making BILLIONS in profits and paying zero in federal taxes?

    That is outragous, as well.
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    Trillions in demand leakages mean we can have much lower taxes per size of government and per a given credit expansion.


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    fenway Wrote: If we (USA) cannot or will not pay our debts..."

    I think it's both.

    We "cannot" because we are way beyond broke, and it's getting worse every day. 

    We "will not" because we as a nation, and specifically our politicians are addicted to borrowing and spending.  Very few of our politicians think about anything other than themselves and their own jobs.  Future generations do not matter to them.

    Some people seem to believe that the way to get out of a hole is to dig a little deeper.  That we can spend our way out of debt. 

    I think the real world doesn't work that way.

    What happens when we run out of other peoples money?


    There is a silver lining to all dark clouds. As to what an unpayable debt means, look to Brazil. No more IMF, and a huge reliance on self. You want see "Made in America" on more goods? Then default on the debt. With on caviat, all debt held by non-international  will be honored. And the next industrialist to scream Free Trade will be hung.