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Healthcare Law Upheld

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    Hooray for Obama, the Supreme Court has upheld this law.  A real feather in his cap, and even more so a slap in the Repubs face for saying that this law MUST be overturned.
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    Great news.  Good to see Justice Roberts put the constitutional law above politics.
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    Whew!

    How many years have we been fighting for this law?

    I can't believe Roberts agreed that the mandate is a tax!


    I have been in so many arguments....so many tireless....round and round.....debates.

    Last semester, I was basically thrown out of class for disagreeing with the conservatives on Obamacare.

    Roberts validated my arguments.

    FORWARD.
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    I've been a critic of Huffington Post headlines, but this one I really relished: SH*tSHOW: CNN, FNC Completely Screw Up Supreme Court Ruling.

    CNN and Fox News jumped the gun and put out headlines that the individual mandate was shot down by the Supreme Court.  Boy did they get that wrong. I wonder if they had the headline all prepared and then hit the wrong button. Ha!

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    I am reading the decision.

    Call me crazy. I don't agree.

    Taxes regulate demand. They don't give government anything.

    Taxing authority is clear commercial regulation. The commerce clause is redundant with respect to taxes.

    What I am worried about is this attention being given to "activity" vs "inactivity"...........commerce clause does give Congress authority to regulate pollution, financial products, labor rights, and even health insurance products.

    The only limits on the commerce clause are other constitutional limits (Constitution, Bill of Rights, subsequent amendments).

    Government can't violate 4th and 5th amendments because it can regulate commerce, for example.

    Hence, it can't force you to eat broccoli, or physically force you to purchase broccoli. 

    There has to be freedom of exit. The government can tax behaviors and adjust, but the outcomes comes down to voluntary choices.

    The so called "individual mandate" relies on removal of free tax credits to "nudge" the monetary incentives for purchasing/acquiring health insurance. It's not even normal tax law. It carries no effective criminal penalties for non-payment of tax liabilities. It just devolves ones eligibility for equivalent tax credits. It's like raising the standard for deductions.

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    Miner, you and every other conservative were so misled about this bill. We, on this forum, were more disappointed by the withdrawl of the not for profit portion that was nogociated away. Healthcare is not done but a step in the right direction has been made. Your dream of a world where only the wealthy were healthy just got shot. But the good news is you can get that bullet wound patched now.
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    Well it's not an income tax.....it's a tax-penalty. It's not raising taxes, per se. Raising taxes means you pay more, no matter what. That is not the case w/ the so-called mandate.

    What the law, effectively, says if you don't purchase health insurance, and you refuse to pay the subsequent tax-penalty, you will lose deductions and free-tax credits available to everyone. It's raising the standard eligibility for income-tax deductions.
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    It wasn't a tax, until it was a tax.

    One thing we know for sure, the issue is not settled.  Not in the long term.

    Is it unconstitutional?  Maybe, but Obama won this round.

    It is constitutional for now because the supremes say it is.  In the long term...who knows?

    Like on the the immigration decision, the bitching and moaning, the whining and crying, is just getting started.

    It's always more entertaining to watch commentary from the side which lost. 
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    fenway Wrote: It wasn't a tax, until it was a tax.


    Its a tax break, a deduction. The power is protected by the government's power to tax. Your statement doesn't make any sense

    fenway Wrote:One thing we know for sure, the issue is not settled.  Not in the long term.


    It's settled for a while. Probably a long while

    fenway Wrote:Is it unconstitutional?  Maybe, but Obama won this round.


    It's not unconstitutional. Allow me to reference the ruling made today.

    fenway Wrote:Like on the the immigration decision, the bitching and moaning, the whining and crying, is just getting started.


    How can people possibly bitch and moan and whine about a higher standard of living and healthier lives. People can bitch about anything.

    fenway Wrote:It's always more entertaining to watch commentary from the side which lost. 


    Agreed
  • Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    Look, all this talk about it being a tax or not, the individual mandate clearly brings about a change to tax law.

    If you don't pay your portion of your tax liability under Obama-care, the government will remove equivalent sums from the real tax bill breaks that it already gives to everyone. 

    And there are things to worry about: we can't levy a tax increase on people left outside the reach of Obamacare subsidies, but still unable to afford private insurance coverage.
    However, the tax liabilities have income criteria as well, and the CBO said it's only going to affect 16% of the population.


    Overall, I prefer Mosler's MMT fix:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/warren-mosler/a-progressive-health-care_b_521651....l
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    Now that the War over Obamacare has ended in a rather Pyrrhic victory for liberal supporters of the reform, it is has become the moral obligation of all true progressive reformers to descend on their state governments and put pressure on their state leaders to enact unified public option legislation to lay siege to the wasteful and inhumane system of for-profit health insurance.
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    "It wasn't a tax, until it was a tax."

    That refers to the argument that the gubmint made, allegedly, that it wasn't a tax.  Until the ruling came out and all of a sudden it WAS a tax.

    "People can bitch about anything."  And they will.  Example:  People are STILL bitching about Florida 2000.  People need to accept this decision and move on, just like they need to accept Florida 2000.  In both cases, most will accept the decision, and some NEVER will.

    "the war over Obamacare has ended"  I think a more accurate statement would be "This BATTLE over Obamacare has ended" 
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    Except is wasn't ruled as a tax.

    Declaring war over something that benefits everyone is absurd. Health is a public good, like roads and education. It increases the standard of living for everyone. Additionally, it will save money, reducing the health care costs across the country. Plus, it will save the government millions if not billions of dollars in tax payer money through preventive care and reimbursing hospitals for treating the uninsured. I have yet to hear a valid argument that comes close to outweighing the vast benefits of this bill.
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    Zach,

    As one small businessman described it yesterday:  a tax, an assessment, a levy, a duty, a tariff, excise, toll, or whatever else it is called, it is an increased cost on American business.  It costs them money, no matter what you choose to call it.

    "it will save the government millions, if not billions of dollars"

    That remains to be seen.  The US Government NEVER misses these estimates, do they?

    Oh, wait a minute.  The US Government nearly ALWAYS misses these estimates.
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    Since Fenway reminded me, (2 or 3 posts ago) -- that some people have NEVER accepted the outcome of the federal election in 2000  ----- YES, there are many MILLION who will never accept the Election of 2000. It was a  "rigged" election, plain and simple. Al Gore WON the ballot count when it was legally administered, & when it was studied at great length after the election had been decided by Supreme Court opinion. But it was Geo "W" Bush who was declared POTUS, & moved into the White House.

    Why is that IMPORTANT?  So we should NEVER FORGET? 

    A "democracy" is a nation "of the people, by the people, & for the people" --- meaning that the govt should be RULED by We the People, and in order to do that, we have to ELECT our LEADERS in a free and open election, (not a rigged sham put on by a brother Governor & a "paid off" Supreme Court). Obviously, Jeb Bush being the brother of George Bush JR, had a severe "conflict of interest", so he should not have been allowed to "govern over" the electoral process in the State of Florida that year. It violated all ethics.

    Besides his dear brother presiding over the "ballot count" in that election, Geo Bush also had a "cousin" who was at one of the Florida News outlets, & this cousin declared Bush the winner, even though it was False.
    All the US news outlets just "believed it" and ran with the story, without verification. SOMEBODY should have had the sense to ADMIT that a horrible Mistake was made, & "retracted" that announcement. To this day, I don't know WHY they just went along with the Big Sham, instead of setting the record straight. BUT WE DO KNOW why Jeb Bush and his cousin would have GREAT REASON to let the Fraud continue. A close family member of theirs would have the great honor (& power & money & prestige) of becoming PRESIDENT. And not only that, but the GOP would have another chance to takeover our govt, to place power in the hands of the corporations, and the Military Industrial War Machine, and the Oil Companies.

    Just THINK:  If  Al Gore would have become the next President, -- #43 -- we would have far less oil spills, more solar energy & wind turbine power.  We may Never have gone into the IRAQ WAR, & thus saved over $3 trillion dollars wasted on a useless stupid war, & then saved the lives of over 4,000 of our soldiers, and saved 40,000 mortal injuries to other soldiers. DUE TO THIS MASSIVE DEBT (for a useless War) OUR ECONOMY has been going Bankrupt for 11 years.  So we now have many US citizens Homeless and Jobless, and failing banks, & GOP trying to take away Social Security & Medicare (because they stole the money used for the ignorant War out of the Social Security Funds, & REFUSE to put the money back in).

    So WE  the PEOPLE should just FORGET the Election of 2000?  We should forget that "rigging" a federal election in a Democracy is -- TREASON?  It totally violates the entire U.S. Constitution, in all aspects.
    Maybe if Bush would have turned out to be a halfway "good" President, that increased the well-being of all our citizens, and  our national economy prospered, & our reputation was intact as a protector of World Peace and all Humanity -- maybe the Fraud & Sham would not be as egregious. BUT since BUSH was not only a LIAR and CROOK, who despises democracy so much, that he would violate all its principles, and dishonor the Founders & their Constitution. BUT he got us into Corrupt Lying WARS of nothing but attempts to exploit the Oil Wells of Iraq, Kuwait, & other Middle East countries. Finally, bombing a country that never threatened us, or attacked us, (pre-eminent strike in Iraq) is a WAR CRIME. & numerous other things Bush did, were horrible things that permanently damaged our nation's reputation & prestige, and ultimately has diminished our Power. OUR ECONOMY NEVER RECOVERED. We are still enmeshed in idiotic Wars, & our people are suffering more than ever. But YOU think, we should "just forget about it"?  NO WAY, Never.