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Is there such a thing as a "Christian Caliphate?"

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  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    With Glenn Beck's conspiracy theory about the Muslim Brotherhood seeking to establish a Muslim Caliphate throughout the Middle East, and his talk of Obama as the anti-Christ, the rest of the media and blogosphere have followed suit...some laughing at him and some agreeing with him.  But it brings to mind...how different is the prospect of a Muslim Caliphate from what some in the Christian commuunity are advocating.  Here's what George Grant, a Christian Reconstructionist and a former director of Coral Ridge Ministries had to say:

    "Christians have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy responsibility to reclaim the land for Jesus Christ -- to have dominion in civil structures, just as in every other aspect of life and godliness. But it is dominion we are after. Not just a voice. It is dominion we are after. Not just influence. It is dominion we are after. Not just equal time. It is dominion we are after. World conquest. That's what Christ has commissioned us to accomplish. We must win the world with the power of the Gospel. And we must never settle for anything less... Thus, Christian politics has as its primary intent the conquest of the land -- of men, families, institutions, bureaucracies, courts, and governments for the Kingdom of Christ."

    Jeff Sharlet, author of the Family, wrote an article for Mother Jones entitled: Junkets for Jesus. Sharlet has exposed the "C" Street Family and its current leader Doug Coe in his book and also numerous appearances on the Rachel Maddow show.

    Coe is only the second leader of the movement, which began as a fundamentalist anti-labor coalition of political and business elites in 1935. Coe's mentor, Abraham Vereide, shared with him a revelation from God: For nearly 2,000 years, Christianity, with its emphasis on the down and out, had been getting it all wrong. Their focus would instead be on the "up and out," the "key men" in positions of power who would be able to usher in the kingdom of God—which, to the Family, has always looked a lot like the country clubs where it conducts much of its soft-sell evangelism. The best way to help the weak, it teaches, is to help the strong. That required first building a ministry in the nation's capital that would over the years become one of Washington's most influential, and most secretive, institutions.

    The Family includes several notable elected politicians including Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Okla.) and Reps. Frank Wolf (R-Va.), Pete Hoekstra (R-Mich.), Robert Aderholt (R-Ala.),  Mike Doyle (D-Pa.), and James Inhofe (R-Okla.), who is infamous for his telling voters that he was running on the "three Gs—God, gays, and guns."

    Max Blumenthal author of Republican Gomarroh, wrote about Sarah Palin for the Daily Beast in his article, Inside Sarah's Church:

    To those who knew Palin, she was no ordinary hockey mom, but rather an evangelical foot soldier who spearheaded the [conservative Christian] movement’s takeover of local government. Her power base was the Wasilla Assembly of God, a Pentecostal mega-church where she was baptized and spent over 20 years as a member.

    Blumenthal also explained this:

    Most Pentecostal congregations are socially conservative, particularly those that are predominantly white, but Wasilla Assembly of God was in thrall to a radical Pentecostal trend once denounced by church authorities as heresy. Called the Third Wave, it was rooted in an explicitly anti-intellectual creation myth. According to the Third Wave’s founding father, William Branham, a rural Canadian preacher, Satan had sex with Eve and gave birth to Cain—the so-called “Serpent Seed.” “Through Cain came all the smart, educated people down to the antediluvian flood—the intellectuals, bible colleges,” Branham wrote. “They know all their creeds but know nothing about God.”

    In 2005, with Palin gearing up for a tough campaign for governor against former Democratic Gov. Tony Knowles, Bishop Thomas Muthee paid a special visit to Wasilla Assembly of God to confer his blessing on her candidacy. With Palin seated in the front row, Muthee suggested that Christians like Palin should “invade” government in order to seize the reins of the world’s economy from the “Israelites.” “It’s high time that we have top Christian businessmen, businesswomen, bankers, you know, who are men and women of integrity running the economics of our nations,” Muthee said. “That’s what we are waiting for. That’s part and parcel of transformation. If you look at the—you know—if you look at the Israelites, that’s how they work. And that’s how they are, even today.”

    So how does the Muslim version of a Caliphate differ from the worldview of some Christians? While some might dismiss this Christian doctrine as not representative of the Christian community as a whole, I would agree.  But I would also maintain that the few in the Muslim community that might be advocating a Caliphate are also a small minority and certainly not representative of the educated mainstream Islamic community.
  • Independent
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    There's a good reason george grant is a "former" director since he has no idea what he's talking about,,the great commision of Christians is "to go into every corner of the world preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ" Render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasars, render unto God the things that are God's.World domination isn't even on the Christian agenda, now maybe he's confused with Islam, which seeks world domination.
  • Independent
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    To continue...in fact Christians know they will be a minority in the world Matthew 7:13,14
    "Enter by the narrow gate;for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are FEW who find it" True Christians know the vast majority of mankind will choose the wrong path, but our great commission is to try and reach as many as possible with the Gospel of Jesus.
  • Strongly Liberal
    Independent
    Seattle, WA
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    I think the term "Dominionism" has been assigned to the Anerican "fundamentalist Christian right," by many academics, and it's because they essentially believe it is a Christian mandate to rule the world.

    It's much like the old "Divine Right" of Christian emperors, popes and kings who built, expanded and maintained military industrial empires ostensibly to "spread the Word of God" and "save souls."

    So, in that respect those who think that is a Christian mandate for Christians to rule are much like Jews and Muslims who also believe their religion must rule, even if it means waging "holy war."

    The irony is that all three of the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) advise against coercion or force to impose religious beliefs on others.

    The Mosaic Covenant states that Israel could be a "holy nation," but only if its people behaved well, and play well with other nations.

    Jesus of Nazareth was a pacifist who advised "shaking the dust from your feet" and simply depart from those who are not receptive to your beliefs. And he said love even your enemies, and resist not evil but love good.

    Muhammad wrote very clearly in the Qur'an that there should be no coercion in matters of faith, and a Muslim is to say, "To you your moral law, and to me, mine."

    It is only hypocrites who claim to be Jews or Christians or Muslims who do not understand that. They seek and even fight to rule in the name of religion, and they are the blind led by the blind.

    I would recommend a web site promoting an Interfaith movement, which has links to some articles on these issues. One is About Christianity: Why It is Divided, and What Will Resolve the Conflict?

  • Center Left Democrat
    Democrat
    Flagstaff, AZ
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    Guy:



    Welcome to the Democratic Hub.

    Although you are a recent member, I found that your posts to date were well thought out, and supported by some very good factual background. Your link about Christianity contained a LOT of good information, and I suspect that many Christians really aren't all that familiar with the history of Christianity.  I was brought up with the Baltimore Catechism, which painted a much different picture.

    Although I've got my own website, I've also contributed to a site that was set up by some old friends in Minnesota, who converted to the Baha'i religion nearly 40 years ago. The basic message of the article below mirrors your thoughts that we should all be tolerant of other religions:

    http://bahaimn3640.blogspot.com/2010/11/thanksgiving-with-enemy.html

    The article below expands on your thoughts about the "Divine Right" of Christian emperors:

    http://tohell-andback.blogspot.com/2009/06/book-of-signs.html

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    First, thank you Guy Dwyer for sharing A Message Worthy of Consideration...Why Are Christians So Divided and In Conflict? Although a "non-believer" myself, I know from my mother's teachings that much of Christianity is good...and that the vast majority of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus and others largely seek to conduct their lives, as the website so aptly puts it:

    "by the the Universal Divine Imperative at the core of all religions — and like all truly religious people they understand that it will be those who are humble, gentle, peaceful and meek who shall inherit the earth by treating all others, including the least of our brethren, kindly and fairly, as everyone wants to be treated."

    Also, I wholeheartedly agree with the caricatures of the goats and wolves as hypocrites that "fight for theocratic political power and rulership, claiming God is on their side and against their “godless” enemies. But they are guilty of religious discrimination, theocratic imposition, and bigotry."

    Yes...very true.

    Arizona -- Likewise your articles, Thanksgiving with the enemy, and the Book of Signs, both about Muslims and Islam are right on.  As one who worked closely with Muslims during my working career including living three years in Libya, I can attest to the truth of your words:

    "The truth is that the Islamic religion is the most popular single denomination in the world, and the overwhelming majority of its followers are non-violent people."

    I have former work colleagues and friends that are Muslims, and the stereotyping of Muslims that is being conducted by the goats and wolves in propaganda outlets like Fox News couldn't be further from the truth.

    Again thank you both for sharing. It is articles like these that enhance the value of the discussions in this website.





  • Strongly Liberal
    Independent
    Seattle, WA
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    that guy in Arizona Wrote:

    Guy:

    Welcome to the Democratic Hub. Although you are a recent member, I found that your posts to date were well thought out, and supported by some very good factual background. Your link about Christianity contained a LOT of good information, and I suspect that many Christians really aren't all that familiar with the history of Christianity.  I was brought up with the Baltimore Catechism, which painted a much different picture.

    Although I've got my own website, I've also contributed to a site that was set up by some old friends in Minnesota, who converted to the Baha'i religion nearly 40 years ago. The basic message of the article below mirrors your thoughts that we should all be tolerant of other religions:

    http://bahaimn3640.blogspot.com/2010/11/thanksgiving-with-enemy.html

    The article below expands on your thoughts about the "Divine Right" of Christian emperors:

    http://tohell-andback.blogspot.com/2009/06/book-of-signs.html



    Thanks for the welcome, the kind words, and those links. I appreciate it.

    I've found that many people -- in fact increasing numbers of people -- are realizing or being informed of the basic message the "Spirit of truth" is trying to get across to us. Many people are expressing the Spirit of truth, or whatever you want to call it, because it instills and inspires us not only with a will to good, but a will to tell the truth even if and when some people just don't want to hear it.

    I am a member of a Coalition that promotes the message of someone we believe expressed the Spirit of truth quite well, much in the tradition of prophets who dare to rebuke people driven by greed and self-interest or sanctimonious self-righteousness disguised as religious truth. And I think that rebuke is what's really needed in the world today.

    There have been many good spiritual teachers who understand why the humble, gentle, kind, loving, peaceful people shall inherit the earth, and act accordingly. But it is a rare spiritual teacher who dares to be a pacifist "warrior" whose only "weapons" are merely words of truth -- not offense words, but firm, righteous words of truth expressed not to condemn, but to educate, not to punish, but to correct, and not to destroy, but to save.

    The one who delivered the message I promote delivered it anonymously, taking to heart the words of Isaiah, who wrote that the servant of God would be "hidden," and the words of Lao Tzu, who wrote: "When the best leaders's work is accomplished, the people will say, 'We did it ourselves!'" The article on Prophecies Re: He Who Fulfills Them discusses that.
  • Strongly Liberal
    Independent
    Seattle, WA
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    Schmidt Wrote: First, thank you Guy Dwyer for sharing A Message Worthy of Consideration...Why Are Christians So Divided and In Conflict? Although a "non-believer" myself, I know from my mother's teachings that much of Christianity is good...and that the vast majority of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus and others largely seek to conduct their lives, as the website so aptly puts it:

    "by the the Universal Divine Imperative at the core of all religions — and like all truly religious people they understand that it will be those who are humble, gentle, peaceful and meek who shall inherit the earth by treating all others, including the least of our brethren, kindly and fairly, as everyone wants to be treated."

    Also, I wholeheartedly agree with the caricatures of the goats and wolves as hypocrites that "fight for theocratic political power and rulership, claiming God is on their side and against their “godless” enemies. But they are guilty of religious discrimination, theocratic imposition, and bigotry."

    Yes...very true.

    Arizona -- Likewise your articles, Thanksgiving with the enemy, and the Book of Signs, both about Muslims and Islam are right on.  As one who worked closely with Muslims during my working career including living three years in Libya, I can attest to the truth of your words:

    "The truth is that the Islamic religion is the most popular single denomination in the world, and the overwhelming majority of its followers are non-violent people."

    I have former work colleagues and friends that are Muslims, and the stereotyping of Muslims that is being conducted by the goats and wolves in propaganda outlets like Fox News couldn't be further from the truth.

    Again thank you both for sharing. It is articles like these that enhance the value of the discussions in this website.



    Thank you so much for your kind words. It's very true what you say about genuine Muslims and Fox News.

    The message I promote also includes an article About Islam, which discusses who Islam became split and divided by conflicts, much as Christianity did. It discusses the schism between the Sunnis and Shiites, for example, and quotes some very crucial statements in the Qur'an that everyone, especially radical Muslims and fundamentalist Christians should acknowledge. And the article on the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict contains a lot of crucial information too.

    The more we know about the true purpose of religions, the more we understand that they are not about controlling and ruling people, but about liberating and empowering people and producing fairness, justice, harmony, and peace. But religion succeeds only when truth prevails over falsehoods, only when good overcomes evil, and only when love overcomes hate.
  • Strongly Liberal
    Independent
    Seattle, WA
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    I forgot to add, since others posted a link about the horrible bloody "Christian Crusades," there is an article about that too in the message I promote. It's The Crusades for Jerusalem.

    One of the things it discusses is the difference between the Muslim leader Saladin, who was  considered even by Europeans as a merciful warrior, which was in stark contrast to King Richard of England, who slaughtered many Muslims in his failed attempt to recapture Jerusalem.
  • Democrat
    Charlotte, NC
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    I am a recent member here,thank the good people here for accepting me. I am also a christian,and am horrified at Glenn Beck and others "conspiracies" To coin a phrase from my neck of the woods(the south) Mr Beck is a few slices short of a full loaf.It has been evident down through history that people who have their own agenda will attempt to use the words of God to make their point for them.Being unable to do so themselves.As for Palin...the "mega-church" must not really be doing a lot of Bible reading. #1:The Bible clearly states...You do not have to swear oaths,but let your yes be yes and your no be no(in other words,just tell the truth)but if you swear an oath,you are bound by it. Palin took an oath in the name of the God she claims to serve, to govern and support the people of Alaska for a specific length of time. Now running for V.P. was ok, she could have done a lot for Alaska in that post. However,when the McCain/Palin ticket lost,she was NOT free to break that oath,to get rich selling a book promoting her, not God.#2:"Do not store up treasures for yourself on earth,where moth and rust can destroy and theives steal...instead store up for yourself treasures in Heaven......for where your treasures are,there your heart will be also".And her book deal and tour certainly stored a few treasures up here for her.        As far as Palin goes,my opinion(and only my opinion) is she is out for herself,and only herself.  Unfortunatly,church pews are full of people like that,every Sunday morning.  I hope this lengthy response didn't offend anyone, maybe excepting Palin, for it was not my intention to offend, rather to contribute to a thread that I found fascinating.
  • Strongly Liberal
    Independent
    Seattle, WA
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    Also remember that Jesus of Nazareth predicted that there would by hypocrites who would claim to do "many wonderful works in the name of the Lord" but would actually "work iniquity."

    Remember that he foretold that the day would come when the son of man would separate the good "sheep" from the hypocritical "goats" who only masquerade as Christians.

    That day is soon to come, as soon as people get the message at http://cjcmp.org
  • Democrat
    Newman Lake, WA
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    Seems to me as long as we have religious freedom in the USA, there is no danger of a "Christian Caliphate".  We've been okay for over 200 years without anyone establishing a "Christian Caliphate".  That is a diversionary rabbit trail to take the focus off the real problem and threat to liberty in the world, Islamic Caliphate established through intimidation and terrorism.  There are no Christian run states on this planet who are threatening democratic nations.  Islam is the problem in Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Queda, etc, etc, etc.

    Get real.
  • Strongly Liberal
    Independent
    Seattle, WA
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    alias Wrote: Seems to me as long as we have religious freedom in the USA, there is no danger of a "Christian Caliphate".  We've been okay for over 200 years without anyone establishing a "Christian Caliphate".  That is a diversionary rabbit trail to take the focus off the real problem and threat to liberty in the world, Islamic Caliphate established through intimidation and terrorism.  There are no Christian run states on this planet who are threatening democratic nations.  Islam is the problem in Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Queda, etc, etc, etc.

    Get real.


    Seems to me you miss the point, perhaps because you are unaware of how political powerful the "religious right" has become in America.

    Perhaps the most blatant example of that was in the 2008 presidential election, when being a Christian was a de facto litmus test for being a viable candidate for the presidency.

    That's because for the last 30 years since the "religious right" rose to political power with Ronald Reagan, they have been gaining more and more political power from local school boards to state legislatures to the judiciary (all the way to the Supreme Court) to Congress and the White House (under Reagan and Bush).

    Check out Ignored American History, and check out how America has betrayed the intent of the Founding Fathers regarding religion.
    ...
  • Democrat
    Newman Lake, WA
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    Guy Dwyer Wrote:
    alias Wrote: Seems to me as long as we have religious freedom in the USA, there is no danger of a "Christian Caliphate".  We've been okay for over 200 years without anyone establishing a "Christian Caliphate".  That is a diversionary rabbit trail to take the focus off the real problem and threat to liberty in the world, Islamic Caliphate established through intimidation and terrorism.  There are no Christian run states on this planet who are threatening democratic nations.  Islam is the problem in Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Queda, etc, etc, etc.

    Get real.


    Seems to me you miss the point, perhaps because you are unaware of how political powerful the "religious right" has become in America.

    Perhaps the most blatant example of that was in the 2008 presidential election, when being a Christian was a de facto litmus test for being a viable candidate for the presidency.

    That's because for the last 30 years since the "religious right" rose to political power with Ronald Reagan, they have been gaining more and more political power from local school boards to state legislatures to the judiciary (all the way to the Supreme Court) to Congress and the White House (under Reagan and Bush).

    Check out Ignored American History, and check out how America has betrayed the intent of the Founding Fathers regarding religion.
    ...


    Reagan scares you, huh.  Have you ever read any of George washington's speeches? If the religous right is so powerful, how did Obama get elected?
  • Democrat
    Charlotte, NC
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    As is his usual style,schmidt has come up with a thought and comments provoking thread.No,there is no such thing as a "Christian Caliphate" Christians (we aren't talking religious here,only Christians), serve only God, in the Personage of Jesus Christ, the risen Savior. That alone, does away with the "Christian Caliphate"question. Now, had the thread been phrased "can there be a protestant caliphate" the answer would have been unequivocally...yes. Again...I wish to offend no one.And again, I was only responding to a thread from schmidt,which I enjoy doing.
      I only wish he would teach me how to get the same affect with my threads...I started one three days ago on Thieves,scoundrels,and real public servants...which included an idea to take the money completely out of elections.  And I got,drum roll please...none.    sigh