Forum Thread

2020 Election: Truth vs Fiction

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    What Dock said is the real issue; people here are always "indoctrinated" either by the "media" or the "church". The point is that people here are "having lazy brains as hell"; they just absorb everything like dumb monkeys; the "boob" tube is their "god".

    I've never been in any country where people are so gullible as here; their minds are steered by lying politicians and the "media/church" ; there seems to be no other way , like "thinking/ analysing" anything for themselves. It is called "herd" mentality which fits perfectly in with an "dictatorship" which Trump wants; he will do the thinking for them, so they don't have to think, except if they want "fries" or "chips". Sorry this country is slowly but surely beyond saving, if at least 50% let the thinking over to an "spoiled uneducated baby" in the W.H. and idiots in the Trump Party supporting him.

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    And get this Dutch, the people we're referring to do not fact check anything out, they believe what they hear without ever having any doubt about the rumor and propaganda. We witnessed all that at Trump rallies when he told the crowd to slow the testing for coronavirus down! There's 72 million of them out here who believe that jackass. The numbers are disturbing, one out of every two people who voted are complete morns! OMFG.
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    The word that comes to mind this morning is scumbag, and this is why:

    In contrast, Trump is trying to retain relevance by creating chaos, as usual.

    He continues to insist he won the election, against all evidence. Christopher Krebs, the director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, earlier pushed back against his insistence the vote was tainted, calling the election “the most secure in American history.” Today, Trump fired him. Krebs tweeted “Honored to serve. We did it right. Defend Today, Secure Tomorrow.”

    National political reporter Robert Costa says he keeps hearing from people around Trump’s lawyer Rudy Giuliani that they are challenging the results of the election not because they think there is any chance for Trump to catch up to Biden in actual votes, but in order to try to prevent key states from certifying their votes. This would throw the election into the House of Representatives, where each state gets one vote. This, they believe, would give Trump a win.

    It’s a terribly long shot, and it doesn’t appear to be working. So far, Trump’s lawyers have already lost 25 of the campaign’s lawsuits. They won one, on procedure, not on evidence.

    Meanwhile, the story that broke last night about Senator Lindsey Graham’s interference in the recount of ballots in Georgia got more detailed. Yesterday, Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger said that Graham (R-SC) had asked him if it were possible to throw out all mail-in ballots from counties with large numbers of mismatched signatures, a request Raffensperger found shocking. Graham admitted the call but denied Raffensperger’s characterization of it. Now it turns out there was someone else on the call, who confirmed the conversation.

    Graham told reporters that he had also spoken with the secretaries of state in Nevada and Arizona, only to have Arizona Secretary of State Katie Hobbs contradict the story on Twitter, saying she had not spoken with him, and Nevada Secretary of State Barbara Cegavske also deny that he had contacted her. Then he said he had spoken with the Arizona Governor, Doug Ducey, but couldn’t recall to whom he had spoken in Nevada. This whole story begs the question: why was Graham, who is a senator from South Carolina, grilling the Georgia secretary of state about an election recount in Georgia?

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    May be now people get the picture that you never should allow an "idiot" to be elected into the W.H. without proper "vetting" and providing no tax returns. This is the result of such stupidity, it will hound this country for an awful long time. By getting Trump then you get automatically the Graham types who is just one of the twist and turn "cult" members who fits right in with our "asshole" leader. Thus nothing new. Plenty of people like that around, who seldom get punished for their total incompetence and butt crawling due to lack of enforceable rules and laws.

    The history books will tell the tale that this country "self destroyed" due to lacking of solid "laws" and inviting all the idiots you can find here to run the country, who's only hobby is to collect money, preferably over "dead bodies".

    Furthermore the "gap" of 2 and a half month, before Biden gets inaugurated, gives all the idiots and Trump plenty of time to make the mess greater than it is already. Because also again there are no "black and white " laws of what an "sitting" President is allowed to do in such period. The same applies about "voting" in an Supreme Court member weeks before an"election" which should also be defined in an "law" to make such impossible.

    Sorry but only possible in an "banana republic" without proper laws; be proud of it.

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    Dutch, you are describing is what a political group of people are likely do when they have gone from majority control to a shrinking political minority. They resort to harmful tactics that break laws, ethics, and even give up many of their own priorities. Authoritarian governments (Russia, China, North Korea) are basically setup where a small minority have controlling power over the majority, and use their power to suppress and limit the freedoms of the majority.

    The GOP is not a minority group on the rise, such as ethnic groups that were once highly controlled and suppressed by the majority. Minority groups that have been gaining political power over decades, abet slowly, tend to seek to change laws and norms that will have equal power, not controlling and domaining power. The Trump GOP wants total and absolute power over all people and all things. Think Germany in the 1930s - 1945, that is exactly the government that Trump and his hardcore supporters want; they want minority control and could care less what the cost are to others nor to themselves.

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    Yes you are right; indeed it looks like the Hitler power grabs, Pompeo could fill the role of Goering for sure, he's now making "deals" for Trump in the "middle east" so he can keep "collecting" after he's out. But no one "blinks" here or does something about this. He's got already the "kickbacks" from Saudi Arabia and the Emirates (for the weapons deal) and he wants an "safe" place to "store" his "commission.

    Ask the CIA what is Pompeo doing all the time in the "middle east?


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    Dock and Arizona, I'm not surprised due to the fact that most "controls" in the "media are lost in space. then the whole mis information circus gets the overhand. Anyone can write or re-design anything, so it looks "real"; that is the problem of 2020.

    So if people are not educated and are not able to see the difference between "real" and "fake", sure then you get an problem in an society. Since people here are too "gullible" and lazy to analyze truth versus fake/lies ; they also believe everything the "church" says, then you get the society we live in. The percentage of these people is extremely high, compared to other civilized countries. Such will mean we have to suffer for a long time, because no one is inclined to fix the "media" about truth telling; by means of "laws". "Free speech" is ridiculous as it is done here without "limits".

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    Interesting, but that will not change Trump and his disciples; the mess only can get bigger; Trump will make sure of that. It will be an long and painful road until January 20th. But even after that, how are you going to fix the crashed bus laying in the ravine? I wish Biden lots of luck, he will need it. If I was him I would already buy lots of paint and have the building contractors ready before moving in the W.H. As well buy some new TV's because Trump threw them out of the windows.

    That is what you get if you "rent" the place to an member of the "street mob" ; I bet all the bathrooms are orange by now because of his hair color as well have black streaks because Rudy used the bathroom. What a country without "laws", but zillions of "lawyers" who mess it only up further.

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    A few days after the election, the Daily Mirror predicted how Trump would act between the date of the election and Biden's inauguration:

    By now, Donald Trump’s presidency should be dead in the water – but tonight political experts warned the lame duck leader could cause chaos during his last 73 days in power.

    His defeat – the first of an incumbent president in four decades – will have left the ultimate sore loser spitting feathers.

    And critics fear that could make egotistical Trump more “dangerous” than ever.

    They warn he will be hellbent on wreaking as much havoc as possible before he leaves the White House on January 20, packing courts and government posts with his preferred people and blocking Biden appointments.

    Mitch McConnell signalled he might try to hold up Biden cabinet secretaries, who need to be approved by the Senate.

    Trump may also position himself as “the Godfather” of his party, with Republicans making pilgrimages to Mar-a-Lago, his sprawling Florida mansion, in a bid to seek his blessing.

    His first campaign manager Brad Parscale warned: “President Trump has the largest amount of data ever collected by a politician. This will impact races and policies for years to come.”

    He is said to be terrified of going to jail so may use some of the next 73 days to put his house in order while he still has the legal protection of the Oval Office - which is precisely why he pardoned Michael Flynn.

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    Arizona, yes dangerous times ahead. He wants to re-introduce the "death" penalty, either by firing squad or by electrocution.

    I hope Biden reverses that, because this brings us back into the stone age if it stays.

    Also don't forget that Trump will make sure that his "cult" makes life very difficult for Biden and will keep pushing the 45% to "obstruct" all the way; McConnell (if he stays) will be the nail in Biden's coffin, if Biden does nothing to prevent an future election of another GOP fanatic candidate. So looking at the total picture, I fear the worst is still to come regardless of an Biden presidency; Trump will as long he's not torpedoed by "lawsuits" be an very dangerous element for years to come. Jared's idea about "pardoning" Trump is an horrible idea, which will only hasten the demise of this country. You can't change an "old" man who never had it "poor" and only "collected" money and never was raised properly. Only the "mafia" is proud of him.

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    wwjd Wrote:

    In the Matrix the main character Neo was given the option to take a Blue pill or take a Red Pill. It is a question of strength. Do you want to deal with reality and become better, stronger, wiser through adversity, or live in a dream world where reality is nothing but an illusion, and nothing new is learned and no progress is made.

    Pretty much what Donald Trump is selling is that "fiction" is a better choice than choosing the reality of the truth. This is what is at the core of the 2020 election. Trump voters are personality types that prefer a leader who tells them false information that makes them feel good about their failures(weaknesses). Racism is not a flaw in a Trump voter, they want to have a leader that is able to fictionalize racism into a virtue. Black people get murdered by police because they are criminals. COVID-19 is not serious problem, so just accept it and it will go away, etc, etc.

    If Trump is able to win, which I highly doubt, it will because he has convinced enough people that its better to accept false information than facing the tough realities of life and attempt to solve difficult problems.

    Getting back to wwjd's original post, it all boils done to identity politics...a blue pill or a red pill. Note that any president that garners more than 52 percent of the vote is considered to have won in a "landslide". Biden gets 51 percent and it's close to a landslide. Ezra Klein wrote an article on identity politics in 2018 that I think captures much of what we have been discussing:

    Ezra Klein, Vox, November 5, 2018: How identity politics elected Donald Trump

    "Virtually all politics is identity politics, and the most powerful political identities are the biggest political identities — Democrat and Republican, which are increasingly merging with our racial, geographic, religious, and cultural groups to create what the political scientist Lilliana Mason calls “mega-identities".

    “The Obama administration was not only eight years of a Democratic president — which meant that partisan polarization would only continue to grow — but also eight years of a black president,” write Sides, Tesler, and Vavreck. “Once Obama was elected, Americans’ racial identities and racial attitudes became even more potent political forces. The gap between the political opinions of whites and blacks grew larger.”

    The fact is that racial, religious and cultural identity played a large part in Trump's 2016 election, and it played a large part in his getting 74 million votes in 2020 (versus 63 million in 2016). Digging into the issues there is not much separating us on such things as health care. However, most people are ignorant of just how issues affect them. It is telling that when people were polled on the various individual aspects of the Affordable Care Act, even the act itself, they were supportive. But when they were asked about "ObamaCare" they became adamantly opposed.

    Trump is a master of messaging -- creating misinformation in the minds of his supporters. I give him an "A" for that. He is successful because he deals not with the details of an issue but rather using flowery language that people like to hear -- a big beautiful heath care plan, a big beautiful wall, etc.

    I suppose the appropriate word is "gullible".

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    Yes Schmidt, the "people" here are terrible gullible; I've seldom seen such in other countries. I guess the reason is that the "media" is not controlled , neither the "churches", neither our politicians. Success assured. All of this boils down to having way too much uncontrolled "free speech" . I don't know why that is the case here; "army" influence? Or just "island" mentality? Or arrogance of "knowing it better" than the rest of the world? Or the education is lacking?

    I still wonder what this country is all about; ( the "money" god has taken over) may be "growing" pains or not having had an "war" on their soil, since 1900?

    An very strange country indeed; I never seen anything similar anywhere in the world.

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    For the last three weeks, Trump and his supporters in the Republican Party have attacked elections officials—including Republicans-- who failed to throw out Democratic ballots to give the election to Trump. The president called Republican Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger an “enemy of the people,” and Trump’s loyalists are intensifying their rhetoric against officials who have persisted in defending the integrity of the election. Right-wing followers on social media called for jail, torture, or execution for a 20-year-old Georgia election technician, falsely alleging he manipulated election data. On NBC’s Today Show, the president’s lawyer Joseph diGenova called for former cybersecurity official Christopher Krebs, whom Trump fired after Krebs stated the election was not marked by fraud but was quite secure, to be “drawn and quartered. Taken out at dawn and shot.”

    Social media accounts from right-wing loyalists are increasingly calling for violence. One user on the conservative media site Parler said that “[We the People] want to kill all of you cheating traitors….” Another called for “Civil war if Biden does steal the election.” These loyalists claim to be waiting for Trump’s “order” to start just such a war.

    Today Gabriel Sterling, a voting systems manager for Republican Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger held a news conference in which he said: “It has all. Gone. Too. Far. It has to stop.” Of the young technician whose life is now in danger, he said, “[t]his kid… just took a job. And it’s just wrong. I can’t begin to explain the level of anger I have right now over this. Every American, every Georgian, Republican or Democrat alike, should have the same level of anger.”

    Sterling attacked Trump for the death threats Georgia officials have been receiving, and chewed out Georgia Republican Senators David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler, who both face runoff elections in early January against Democratic challengers Jon Ossoff and Raphael Warnock, for refusing to shut such language down. “Mr. President, you have not condemned these actions or this language,” he said. “Senators, you have not condemned this language or these actions. . . . Stop inspiring people to commit potential acts of violence…. That shouldn’t be too much to ask for people who ask us to give them responsibility.” Sterling also called out diGenova for his language: “Someone’s going to get hurt,” he said. “Someone’s going to get shot. Someone’s going to get killed.”

    Trump and allies of Don Jr. have been fundraising on the idea that Trump must contest the 2020 election. Trump’s Save America Political Action Committee (PAC) has raised more than $170 million in contributions to overturn the election, but very little of that money goes to the recount effort. It goes primarily to whatever Trump wants—including golf memberships, travel, and salaries-- and to the Republican National Committee.

    Don Jr.’s allies have formed the Save the U.S. Senate PAC. It is nominally about the Georgia run-off Senate elections, but can take in unlimited money from anyone, including corporations, and spend it however it wishes, so long as it doesn’t explicitly coordinate with a political campaign. As Washington Post correspondent Philip Bump puts it: “Trump and his team have figured out a way to parlay his base’s concerns about the election — concerns Trump has been hyping for months — into a well-stocked bank account with few limitations on how it is used.”

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    HCR had a few more comments about the election last night:

    Yesterday evening, Trump’s disgraced former National Security Advisor, retired Lieutenant General Michael Flynn-- whom Trump recently pardoned after he pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his contacts with then-Russian Ambassador to the U.S. Sergey Kislyak before Trump took office-- retweeted a news release from a right-wing Ohio group called “We the People Convention.” That release contained a petition asking Trump to declare martial law, suspend the Constitution, silence the media, and have the military “oversee a national re-vote.”

    The petition ends with a threat of violence, calling on Trump “to boldly act to save our nation…. We will also have no other choice but to take matters into our own hands, and defend our rights on our own, if you do not act within your powers to defend us.”

    University of Texas School of Law Professor Steve Vladeck pointed out that “The Uniform Code of Military Justice defines as ‘sedition’ one who, ‘with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of lawful civil authority, creates, in concert with any other person, revolt, violence, or other disturbance against that authority.’…”

    This afternoon the president released a video of himself making a speech he said was “maybe the most important speech I’ve ever made.” It was a 46-minute rant insisting, despite all evidence to the contrary, that he won the 2020 election. While he has lost virtually every court challenge he has mounted and his own Attorney General, William Barr, has said there was no evidence of fraud that would change the outcome of the election, Trump continues to insist that there was “massive” voter fraud, and called on the Supreme Court to “do what’s right for our country” including throwing out hundreds of thousands of Democratic votes so “I very easily win in all states.”

    For all that attacking the election might be reality television for Trump, his supporters take it very seriously indeed. At a rally in Georgia, Trump’s ally, lawyer Lin Wood, insisted he had seen the “real” results of the election, and that Trump won “over 410” electoral votes. “He damn near won every state including California!” The crowd blamed Georgia Governor Brian Kemp, a Republican, for the fact that the state’s recount did not go to Trump. “Lock him up!” they chanted.

    Tonight, the Vermont Secretary of State’s Office tweeted that their elections team was “threatened with execution by firing squad.” It said, “This has to stop. The wild, unfounded accusations amplified by [Trump] need to stop.”

    Although Trump has made it clear he intends to run again in 2024, Trump’s hand-picked Republican National Committee Chair Ronna McDaniel has invited about a dozen potential 2024 candidates to a meeting in January, signaling that she is not wedded to another Trump candidacy.