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Got a rant from a far gone Trumper that needs a good refuting

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    Got a post on Facebook that I came across that could use a good rebuttal.

    “EVIL EMPIRE

    Many of the Democrat pundits on FB and the main stream media claim that Trump lied when he said Obama gave $150 billion dollars to Iran. We can argue over a few billion here or there, but Trump did not lie. Yes the money that Iran received was Iran’s money that was frozen between 1979 and 1983 via Law suits for various misdeeds committed by Iran to include an $11 billion judgement against Iran for its role in the 1983 Beirut barracks bombings (in which 241 Marines were killed) and for other acts of international terrorism. The list goes on.

    When Obama became President, he had the where with all to finally make a deal with Iran. We don’t know how much pressure Valerie Jarrett (Obama’s political advisor and confidant) had on his decision, but Jarrett was born in Iran to European and African parents who suffered racial indignation when they moved to the USA in 1963. The family returned to the middle East to escape prejudice. It was Jarrett who gave Michelle Obama her start in Chicago city government. And it is Jarrett who has advised Obama on all matters

    Then Secretary of State John Kerry (who has personal ties to Iran) fought like hell to broker the 2015 nuclear agreement between the USA and Iran. After Trump canceled the deal as “bad for America” Kerry continues, as a civilian, to defy the Logan Act and negotiate with Iran, telling them to just wait until the Democrats can get rid of Trump.

    So what about the money? Returning the frozen Iranian assets was part of Obama’s deal to get Iran to the negotiating table. Senate Republicans argued that it was too much money to give Iran in one fell swoop, fearing they would use is for nefarious purposes, like give a chunk of it to the Quds Force; a unit in Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps specializing in unconventional warfare and military intelligence operations, i.e. terrorist activities. The Quds Force was headed by the late General Qasem Soleimani who is responsible for hundreds, if not thousands of American deaths.

    The Trump haters claim that he should never have cancelled the deal with Iran. Iran had been playing cat and mouse games with us since 1977. The nuclear agreement was another such game. The last straw for Trump was the fact that Iran repeatedly refused IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency). Without oversight there can be no deal!

    Fast forward a couple of years to some Iranian dirty tricks, the death of Soleimani, and the rocket attack on our base in Iraq. Now comes Trump’s address to the Nation this morning. He is letting the rocket attack go as there were no US deaths or injuries. Trump will not retaliate militarily. But he will squeeze the living shit out of them economically. I think the President made the right decision.

    You cannot trust a deal made with the devil. Iran will continue to saber rattle as they have done for forty years. Who knows what will happen? But we cannot discount war, out of hand. When dealing with a mad man, like Ayatollah Khomeini, we must be prepared for any contingency.

    Thank you for your time,
    [some far-right wingnut]”

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    America's hands are clean? Don't even get me started, this is a place you should not go.

    America's hands are filthy for supporting Israel in the middle east region, if you don't realize that, then you need to read up on the dirty tricks America has played against Israel's sworn enemies.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Beirut_barra...

    "On June 6, 1982, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) initiated Operation "Peace for Galilee" and invaded Lebanon in order to create a 40 km buffer zone between the PLO and Syrian forces in Lebanon and Israel.[16][17][18] The Israeli invasion was tacitly approved by the U.S., and the U.S. provided overt military support to Israel in the form of arms and materiel.[19] The U.S.' support for Israel's invasion of Lebanon taken in conjunction with U.S. support for Lebanese President Bachir Gemayel and the Lebanese Armed Forces (LAF) alienated many.[20] Bachir Gemayel was the legally elected president, but he was a partisan Maronite Christian and covert associate of Israel"

    "All of this, according to British foreign correspondent Robert Fisk, served to generate ill will against the MNF among Lebanese Muslims and especially among the Shiites living in the slums of West Beirut. Lebanese Muslims believed the MNF, and the Americans in particular, were unfairly siding with the Maronite Christians in their attempt to dominate Lebanon.[26][27][28] As a result, this led to artillery, mortar, and small arms fire being directed at MNF peacekeepers by Muslim factions"

    REAGAN AIDES SAY C.I.A. BULLETIN WARNED OF LIKELY BEIRUT ATTACK

    nytimes.com/1983/11/02/world/reagan-aid...

    Bush 43 was warned well before the 9/11 attacks too.

    Look up Operation Ajax

    The U.S. Government operates an agency called the CIA, which operates in a covert manner to undermine or overthrow many other country's governments.

    Other countries cannot trust any kind of a deal made with the USA.

    1953, that's how far back the USA and Briton have been meddling in Iran. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup...

    "The 1953 Iranian coup d'état, known in Iran as the 28 Mordad coup d'état (Persian: ?????? ?? ??????), was the overthrow of the democratically elected Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh in favour of strengthening the monarchical rule of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi on 19 August 1953,[5] orchestrated by the United States (under the name TPAJAX Project[6] or "Operation Ajax") and the United Kingdom (under the name "Operation Boot").[7][8][9][10] It was the first covert action of the United States to overthrow a foreign government during peacetime"

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    Ahhhhh...any rebuttal that doesn’t refer to Wikipedia...?
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    Oh well. Guess I’ll use it.
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    If you can't come up with your own Facebook rebuttals perhaps you should give up on social media. I question your motives. I hope I am wrong but a prolonged he said she said sounds like elementary school.
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    @TJ

    lol You don’t have to get all snippy. I’m not sure if “he said she said” is the right phrase that applies here. But oh, no. I can make my own. There’s a few dozen trite, right-wing arguments I already know how to refute with what I know and can tackle already. Especially when they reference PragerU. If you’ve followed my activity carefully, you’ll see that I haven’t been on here in a while.

    Sometimes there’s just a few things that leave me stumped which I don’t know how to respond to and at the same time, I want to keep fighting the good fight to bring more naïve fence walkers and non-voters over to our side, by essentially showing the right to be the irrational, illogical and ignorant one. SO I come to you guys for guidance, as this would seem to be an ideal forum for hitting back against conservative arguments. I already tried this at another political debate forum, but it became too toxic in its community and ran out of control where was just full of trolls and ad hominem attack with no control enforced by the admins. So I found you guys, and so far but I’d say you’ve all been pretty helpful when enough time and patience is given.

    Your forums are a good outlet for enlightening liberal thought and shutting down conservative thought. As someone who’s a technically an independent who leans left, and a fellow Trump detractor, keyboard warring with rational and well thought out arguments, with a little help from experts on my side of the aisle, is the best way to go.

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    I wasn't going to comment in this thread, but I'll reiterate what I have said in some older threads on Iran. As Dockadams pointed out in his post, the 1953 CIA sponsored coup in Iran in Operation Ajax was game changer in the Middle East politics that set a friendly Muslim nation against the United States. In my view it was the single biggest foreign policy blunder by Dwight Eisenhower that has had lasting repercussions (blowback is the term the CIA uses) up to today and well into the foreseeable future.

    President Obama sought to make some amends and slowly bring back Iran into the global sphere of respected countries, but Donald Trump has reversed all that with his withdrawal from the Iran Nuclear Agreement. Trump's foreign policy blunder may yet eclipse the foreign policy blunder of Eisenhower. And now that blunder has been compounded with his assassination of Qasem Soleimani, a highly revered figure in Iran. Blunder after blunder.

    There are many sources on the internet that you can read to learn more about the background of Operation Ajax, but I'll list just one: a CIA summary of Stephen Kinzer's book on the subject. Of course there are others in the right wing sphere who will disagree, but the summary below presents the factual points.

    CIA Library: All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror

    I have worked with Iranian-Americans and have utmost respect for their intelligence and work ethic as well as the fact that they are just very nice people. I admire the history of Iran or Persia for some. It has a rich cultural history with settlements going back 9,000 years. It's contributions to modern day culture and societies are well documented.

    I won't harp on all that. Iran has had its share of wars and conflicts over thousands of years, and Operation Ajax is probably just a tiny mark on that history. Still I lament what might have been had the CIA not intervened in 1953. I look at the trends of modernization of elements of Islam today in various countries, and Iran no doubt took a massive step backward after the CIA sponsored coup. Now any attempts by the young people of Iran to try bring their people into the global sphere have taken another step backward with Trump's assassination of Qasem Soleimani. It was just plain STUPID.

    On the other hand, the USA seems to be fully in bed with Saudi Arabia, whose brand of extreme religious Islamic fundamentalism called Wahhabism is the antithesis of everything America stand for. We should not forget that 15 out of the 19 hijackers on the 9/11 planes were Saudi Arabian citizens and advocates of Wahhabism. None of the hijackers were Iranian. If you look at the roots of ISIS fundamentalist ideology you'll find it in the madrassas sponsored by Saudi Arabia...and the aspects of Wahhabism taught in these madrassas.

    Americans have a distorted view of Iran, fueled in part by the Christian evangelical community and the media. We don't know or understand history. We remain ignorant and therefore prey to unscrupulous demagogues.

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    Yes Schmidt; yes absolutely correct; I only can add, I certainly could not have written this better with my limited language "style". Please forward this to Trump and his cronies as well the Pope.
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    I went ahead and used Schmidt’s reply in a similar discussion, and this’s the response I got:

    ”I don’t have any problem with Iranians. I was speaking of the government. I know Iranians for the most part can’t stand their theocracy.
    We bombed a terrorist. Trump did what should have been done years ago. Good riddance.

    Every nation has a dark past, America is no different. There’s no arguing that. But, you still live here... Why if America is such an authoritarian regime, or a borderline fascist country, under Trump, and capitalism is so evil, why haven’t you packed your bags?

    Obama was the worst mistake ever cast on the American people.

    Iran had no intention of keeping their agreement. That deal was dog shit anyways. Kerry is a moron. Just curious, when The Obama Administration circumvented Congress and started bombing anyone and everyone in the ME— where was your outrage? All the sudden liberals care about killing terrorists, regime changes, carpet bombing? Please.

    So, can we agree that the CIA is corrupt, and our government has been shady for decades?”

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    Yes you are an sick puppy and need lots of help. Sorry each time the GOP is in power the shit flies and the Dem's have to clean it up afterwards, ask Bush and Cheney as well who started the Vietnam war. The US has lost all their wars since 1945, due to arrogance and incompetence costing trillions and lives. Ask Trump, "he knows it all"and does not need "experts" he only wants dumb asses around him who are "loyal" but lack brains, because KKK Daddy made him an spoiled brad and helped him with his "bone spur" as well educated him in ripping off people and in "mafia" practices. Furthermore who always created the biggest deficit and wasted the most tax money? ( Trump already spent more on himself than any President on history.) Guess, what all our useless wars are still costing us? You are part of the "island" mentality, because you have no clue about the rest of the world which is advancing rapidly while we still fight about healthcare and infrastructure and trade. Sorry we are the "bully" in the world, but don't realize it. Don't let me laugh about this country and its so called patriots; just wait and remember my words, once this has become an full blown dictatorship, you will realize that Venezuela is an paradise compared to here. Amen
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    Christango -- The reply reaffirms what I have said in other posts about our citizenry. We are largely ignorant of government and rather castigate than do our homework. Every diplomat with any credentials in the world knows that the Iran Nuclear Accord was a very good agreement. It could have been better, yes, but still very good. Trump and his minions have done untold damage to our peace prospects in the Middle East by withdrawing from that accord.

    The only people solidly condemning the Iran Nuclear agreement were Israel's Netanyahu and his far right Lukud party, Trump's minions in the Republican Freedom Caucus and the Christian Evangelicals whose motives were more driven by their vision of an end of times scenario where they would be raptured up to heaven. Oh there are others in the Republican Party who for no other reason than tribal loyalty, also condemned the agreement. Some of these are the same people who when polled hated ObamaCare but liked the Affordable Care Act or the many terms that the ACA provided. It's astounding the ignorance of the American people.

    It's the same with trade agreements. Trump has scrapped trade agreements entered into under Obama or his predecessors, but basically what Trump's team is negotiating ends up with terms not all that different than what Obama had negotiated or was in the process of negotiating.

    I also know that many people are predisposed to hate certain personalities. I know of husband and wife teams that took immediate opposite views of Barack Obama when they first saw him on TV. Instant like and instant dislike... which evolved into hate for some. Add in the Fox News daily discourse of anti-liberal trash and that's where we are today...a divided country where for one segment, Trump is revered and can do no wrong, and for the other Trump is a buffoon...an authoritarian narcissistic bully who only thinks of himself; but also suffers from "Obamaphobia" a feeling of inadequacy when compared to the greatness of his predecessor.

    I have reverted to reading articles in Psychology Today to try understand the rabid Trump supporters. It's all emotions lacking in critical thinking or knowledge. You would be best to not argue with them. Facts do not matter one iota when dealing with the most rabid of Trump supporters.

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    Yes Schmidt, again correct. I like to add, that an comparison between Obama and Trump's "leadership" has everything to do with "color/religion" or the "stability" of this country. Don't forget Obama had the advantage to be "educated" (as well abroad) and did not have an Daddy handing out millions to his spoiled "NY mafia" trained son. The "election" system in this country is at fault by not requiring "background checks" as well "qualification checks" for any candidate" before" the elections, as well making it an "law" to produce your "tax returns". Due to that fact, if not, you will get an lying cheating corrupt candidate with an intimidating uneducated big mouth, which is afterwards very difficult to remove. Thus an"self inflicted" wound, which may cost this country its status in the world, because the person who got elected has no clue about the world around him and only is busy to enrich himself as well put himself on an pedestal, helped by the majority of uneducated people who never were, or ever been, or worked anywhere else in the world; it is called "island" mentality.

    Yes, this country is running like crazy towards an very high cliff.

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    Still, it’s in our best interests to show the moderates we‘re on the side they want to be on. I went ahead and used Dutch’s response but I took some editorial liberties...:

    “Sorry each time the GOP is in power the shit flies and the Dem's have to clean it up afterwards, ask Bush and Cheney. Ask Eisenhower who started the Vietnam war. The US has lost all their wars since 1945, due to arrogance and incompetence costing trillions and lives. Ask Trump, “he knows it all” and does not need “experts” he only wants morons around him who are “loyal” but lack brains, because his KKK Daddy made him a spoiled brat and helped him with his “bone spur” as well as educated him in ripping off people and in mafia practices. Furthermore who always created the biggest deficit and wasted the most tax money? (Trump already spent more on himself than any President on history.) Guess what all our useless wars are still costing us? You are part of the “island” mentality, because you have no clue about the rest of the world which is advancing rapidly while we still fight about healthcare and infrastructure and trade. Sorry we are the “bully” in the world, but don't realize it. Don't make me laugh about this country and its so-called patriots.”


    When we use ad hominem and hyperbole, it shows that we’ve lost the argument. Sorry if that’s stepping on your toes, Dutch.

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    Now think about this for awhile, the situation which I am going to lay out.

    Imagine that our homeland (America) has been invaded by a foreign force, could be Russian, Could be Chinese or whoever.

    They performed a successive coup on our government and are going city by city bombing, killing and rooting out what they believe are the resistance (us). We're trying to fight back, we have tons of small arms, but no aircraft or missiles, but we're using ingenuity we've obtained by other countries, like roadside IED's, we won't win, but we'll keep trying to beat them back to where they came from, we have a strong animosity toward them and we won't stop until we kill them all and kick them out of our country.

    Now imagine this have been going on for decades and decades, with no end in sight. They've overthrown our democratically elected government and installed their own. Think about it. Not just for 5 or 10 minutes, give this situation long and hard thought.

    Now just think about how Iraqis and Iranians feel. What about the Afghans?

    Why would any American hate the people of these countries? Because it's been drilled into our heads by politicians who are on the wrong path?

    Now, I know and realize the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, and the USA retaliated too, civilian deaths totaled between 50 and 55 million people in WWII. Total deaths, military and civilian combined totaled between 70 and 85 million people.

    Thoughts of an Iranian American: vox.com/first-person/2020/1/8/21057052/...

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    Christango Wrote:

    Still, it’s in our best interests to show the moderates we‘re on the side they want to be on. I went ahead and used Dutch’s response but I took some editorial liberties...:

    “Sorry each time the GOP is in power the shit flies and the Dem's have to clean it up afterwards, ask Bush and Cheney. Ask Eisenhower who started the Vietnam war. The US has lost all their wars since 1945, due to arrogance and incompetence costing trillions and lives. Ask Trump, “he knows it all” and does not need “experts” he only wants morons around him who are “loyal” but lack brains, because his KKK Daddy made him a spoiled brat and helped him with his “bone spur” as well as educated him in ripping off people and in mafia practices. Furthermore who always created the biggest deficit and wasted the most tax money? (Trump already spent more on himself than any President on history.) Guess what all our useless wars are still costing us? You are part of the “island” mentality, because you have no clue about the rest of the world which is advancing rapidly while we still fight about healthcare and infrastructure and trade. Sorry we are the “bully” in the world, but don't realize it. Don't make me laugh about this country and its so-called patriots.”


    When we use ad hominem and hyperbole, it shows that we’ve lost the argument. Sorry if that’s stepping on your toes, Dutch.

    In other words you "believe" what I wrote; sorry my toes are worn out because of all my world travels and work.