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Hypothetical: What would happen if Trump defied a SC court order

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    The court order could be anything, but to keep it simple, let's say the SC court upheld that Trump had to testify before congress, and Trump refused. "Nope, I am not going. I don't care what the SC says. I am not, and nobody can force me."

    This question is not focused on the underlying order, the question is what would happen if Trump simply decided not obey a SC order, or any court order. What would happen? Is impeachment the only recourse?

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    What would happen?

    Nothing. Trump is above the law, and now makes UCMJ decisions for the military too. He is the king of the United States.

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    A Federal Judge declared that Trump is not an King and not "above the law". However the idiot named Barr still thinks he's an Czar and is above the law. So who is going to win? I've been all over the world and worked in lots of strange places, but I've never seen more idiots than here. Amen.
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    Dockadams Wrote:

    What would happen?

    Nothing. Trump is above the law, and now makes UCMJ decisions for the military too. He is the king of the United States.

    Sadly, you are mostly correct that Donald is above the law. For now, at least.

    A President that sees himself above the law can only be checked by the Congress. Courts can make rulings, but if Donald openly refuses to accept a ruling and Congress allows him to get away with it then, well, he'll get away with it.

    The Courts don't have any power to enforce their rulings. They rule and Presidents have (almost) universally accepted their rulings, even if they don't agree with them. Unfortunately, Donald isn't a normal President and 200 plus years of precedent don't apply to him.

    The Republican Party has turned into a cult and I have little to zero faith that they will ever hold Donald accountable. Our only hope is to resoundingly defeat Donald in 2020. If we don't then God help us all.

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    To make the scenario more realistic. Trump could challenge the national election in the courts claiming the results are invalid due to foreign interference, thus refuses to leave office. The SC would most likely uphold the election results declaring Trump lost the election, but Trump ignores the SC ruling and he remains in the WH.

    I am not predicting that scenario will happen, and probably has less than 1% of actually happening, but I am predicting Trump will lose the election, and no matter what Trump decides to do after he has lost the 2020 election, there will not be a peaceful transition of power; he will do whatever he can to keep the spot light ALWAYS on him, in or out of office. He will refuse to accept he lost the election, and tell his base the national election was a FAKE election. Within 1-2 weeks of losing the election he will resume his rallies tour, denouncing the 2020 election results, and call upon his base to rise up against the US Government.... That is very plausible.

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    Sure, and you think that this is an "normal" country? I've said so many times what the cause is, having no sound laws in this country; lawyers run the show and don't want "solid" laws; the more chaos the more money for them. Sorry but the few laws here what work are only meant for the lower classes; the "upper" ones are above the law, pay barely any taxes and they make sure they have other lawyers to defend them. Law wise, then I've never seen an bigger mess than here, compared to other civilized country's. One word says it all: "Corrupt" to the bone. The system is broken.
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    Okay, this narrative that Trump could defy the Supreme Court is a stretch. Unlikely, but perhaps plausible. We've discussed before Trump's own analogy that he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and get away with it. If Trump really believes that then anything is possible.

    As long as the Republicans in Congress continue to support him come hell or high water then he'll just become a "refusenik" -- a person who refuses to follow orders or obey the law -- in its modern usage. Remember it takes 67 votes in the Senate to convict him after being impeached in the House. That's 20 Republican votes where today there are none, zero, nada.

    Trump's loyal base of evangelicals, gun crazies, corporatists, the ignorant, and super rich hold power in the Senate, and might alone be enough to squash any attempts to convict and remove him from office. So if he decides to contest the election on any false pretense and refuse to leave the White House, then Congress might not be able to force him out. The Constitutional Crisis that we keep hearing about will be upon us. A few Republicans might turn against Trump, but 20? That's a stretch also.

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    Schmidt Wrote: Okay, this narrative that Trump could defy the Supreme Court is a stretch. Unlikely, but perhaps plausible. We've discussed before Trump's own analogy that he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and get away with it. If Trump really believes that then anything is possible.

    I hate to admit it, but I think it's less of a stretch than it was before the impeachment hearings where we saw House Republicans regurgitating Russian propaganda and excusing Donald's extortion as just Trump being Trump.

    Senate Republicans aren't going to convict Donald no matter how egregious his crimes are. That is dangerous with someone like Donald who already is convinced he's above the law.

    What worries me most is what happens after the Senate basically rubber stamps his treasonous behavior. All gloves will be off then.

    I hope the complete breakdown of our Constitutional democracy was worth it for all those Bernie or busters in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania.

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    Presently, the majority of republicans rule the senate, and we can't expect a majority of those GOP members to convict in the impeachment process. We also have a hand picked DOJ official too. On the SCOTUS bench, we have a conservative majority too, and with RBG in and out of hospitals as of late, I hope nothing bad happens to her, that would give Trump and the GOP a super majority on the bench.

    The deck is stacked against us in returning to what is right, just and lawful. The "real" rule of law.

    Earlier today, I tried finding out more about Nixon's impeachment, using a bing search engine, and didn't find what I was looking for, which was how many witnesses refused to comply with congressional subpoenas. Right now, Trump seems to be operating his own little dictatorship by telling white house staffers and appointees who should not testify or respond to congressional subpoenas.

    In my search readings, I did discover that because the media (press) reported so much bad stuff about Nixon, it helped sway public opinion about him, this hasn't worked with Trump.

    In the last day or so, Trump has distanced himself from his personal attorney (Rudy), Trump has just about thrown him under the bus. In other words Trump didn't do anything wrong, his attorney went rogue on him, in so many words. I didn't buy it.

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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Dockadams Wrote:

    What would happen?

    Nothing. Trump is above the law, and now makes UCMJ decisions for the military too. He is the king of the United States.

    Sadly, you are mostly correct that Donald is above the law. For now, at least.

    A President that sees himself above the law can only be checked by the Congress. Courts can make rulings, but if Donald openly refuses to accept a ruling and Congress allows him to get away with it then, well, he'll get away with it.

    The Courts don't have any power to enforce their rulings. They rule and Presidents have (almost) universally accepted their rulings, even if they don't agree with them. Unfortunately, Donald isn't a normal President and 200 plus years of precedent don't apply to him.

    The Republican Party has turned into a cult and I have little to zero faith that they will ever hold Donald accountable. Our only hope is to resoundingly defeat Donald in 2020. If we don't then God help us all.

    Yes Jared, don't count on it. Looking at the Democratic "field" then who is "suited" and can actually "defeat" Trump and his cronies? It is only in-fighting at present and now Bloomberg stepped in, it is getting even worse. Sorry "God" is on vacation to his winter palace on Jupiter and does not give a shit about ant like humans on an tiny planet with lots of pollution. Amen
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    Schmidt Wrote:

    Okay, this narrative that Trump could defy the Supreme Court is a stretch. Unlikely, but perhaps plausible. We've discussed before Trump's own analogy that he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and get away with it. If Trump really believes that then anything is possible.

    Yes, it is unlikely he would defy a SC order. Probably less than 1% chance at this point in time. But the chances are on the rises that he eventually would base on how long he remains president.

    As you and others have pointed out, Republicans are willing to support him no matter what he does, and his base LOVES that he breaks the law; at some point Trump would cross that line and disobey a SC decision, its only a matter of time.

    He might test the waters by disobeying a SC order on something that his base would support and Republicans would consider a trivial\bad SC decision, so they support Trump's disobedience of the SC. They might go as far as suggesting Trump is being a TRUE american by disobeying bad SC decisions, and comparing Trump to other great Americans who refuse to follow the rule of law.

    Once he crossed that line with his base fully behind him, and Republican leaders not willing to challenge him because the laws he breaks are not worthy of impeachment, he will continue to break more and more laws, going as far as declaring an national election invalid, even if the SC over-rules him later, declaring the election to be valid, and that he must leave office. He will simply say "The SC is wrong, I am not leaving". His base will cheer and republicans won't challenge him.

    I am not saying it will happen, just saying if Trump reaches any point where he can defy the SC and get away with it, he will take that opportunity. I am saying that without a doubt, Trump is not afraid of defying a SC order if he believes he can win that fight.

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    And what happens when a criminal breaks laws, and keeps getting away with breaking even more laws and isn't caught, tried and punished, it emboldens the criminal to go ever farther and break even more laws. That's what might happen in the case of Trump's defiance of our judicial system, he's already challenged judges at the federal level and even has gone so far as to insult them, with no repercussions.

    It's like a person who sees a car with an open window and a smartphone lying in plain view, he/she reaches in a grabs the phone, nobody saw it happen, or if someone did, they didn't say anything (like the GOP). The next time, the person breaks a car window and steals a phone, the next time, the thief steals a car, the next time the thief carjacks someone, the next time the thief carjacks and robs someone at gunpoint, the next time that person shoots and kills someone....

    Why does Trump keep getting away with these things? It's our outdated laws and constitution which needs to be amended badly to rein in bad people who have been elected to the office.

    Americans knew he was a creepy criminal when he ran for office, yet the stupid electoral college put him in office. One reason why we should elect people and place in office by the popular vote.

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    Dock your last paragraphs say it all; indeed it is our antique laws manipulated by a zillion lawyers which is the cause of it all.

    But yeah no one wants to change or improve our laws or make "rules" laws. No "tax returns" as well all kinds of expensive court cases taking "years" and no result, because of "only" rules. This country is laughable.

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    The vetting of candidates when they declare their candidacy is indeed a weakness in our system of governance. Much of the vetting is left to the media, whether it is local media for local candidates, or nationwide media for Congress and Presidential offices. Many of the candidates in the Democratic Party do not engage in exposing their opponent's "dirty laundry". Rather they keep it to policies. It is the Republicans who vet on dirty laundry almost exclusively, and if they cannot find any they'll manufacture it...e.g. the Bidens and Ukraine.

    On that point, Bernie Sanders escaped without the "dirty laundry" exposes during the last election because Hillary would not go there; she needed those Bernie supporters to beat Trump. Not even the media would touch it in a big way because they likewise did not want to catch the wrath of the Bernie supporters.

    Trump, on the other hand, had no qualms about going after each and every Republican opponent in a big way in 2016 exposing dirty laundry or just making shit up. For example, on Carly Fiorina it was, "Look at that face! Would anyone vote for that? Can you imagine that, the face of our next president?" Trump reportedly bellowed while watching his Republican presidential rival on the news. "I mean, she's a woman, and I'm not s'posedta say bad things, but really, folks, come on. Are we serious?”

    Can anyone imagine Barack Obama saying something like that against Hillary in the 2008 election and get away with it?

    That's Trumpspeak. Before Trump it was PalinSpeak. It is soo Republican. You betcha!

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    Said: "If Trump really believes that then anything is possible."

    As I have said from the beginning: "Trump never wanted to be president". He wanted to think he could win but only entered the race to improve his brand. In the beginning he never entertained the thought that he would win. As he became more outrageous and did every possible thing to lose his support grew. He spent less than half the money that Hillary did, made every possible slur about everything and continued to gain support. Even a logical sane normal person would have to wonder if the divinity was tilting the table towards Trump. So apply the obvious to a narcissistic sociopath and you have a self perceived dictator. Remember when the headlines were "he's gone too far this time" and then again and again and again. Why is nobody yet held in contempt and thrown in jail??? Everybody that can do anything is scared of Trump. As each felonious contempt is ignored Trump is more rigidly secured in power.