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illegal immigrants

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  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Tucson, AZ
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    Although this topic is closely related to the discussions about the shutdown, it needs to be examined separately because it is a VERY complicated issue.

    Trump has long used immigration as a "wedge" issue to separate his base from the more rational members of society, which is why he first started claiming, in 2010, that Obama was born in Kenya - and he was far from the only politician that was saying the same thing:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories#Donald_Trump

    From the opening salvo of his presidential campaign, he started picking on immigrants. He claimed that Mexicans were "drug dealers, criminals, and rapists". He claimed that the only way to stop them was to build a "big, beautiful wall" - and Mexico was going to pay for it.

    Since Mexico clearly was never going to pay for it, he is now using the extortion of a government shutdown to force the TAXPAYERS to pay for it, since he claims that the cost of illegal immigrants is FAR greater than the cost of his stupid wall. The other day, he actually said that the cost of illegal immigration was "over $200 billion" a year".

    Where in the world did he come up with THAT number?

    Lord knows, but a large part of the blame can be attributed to the Heritage Foundation, the conservative think tank that was started in 1973. Here are two key paragraphs from the Wikipedia article about the organization:

    *********************************************************************************

    The Heritage Foundation has been described as a major influence on the presidential transition of Donald Trump and the Trump administration. The foundation had a powerful say in the staffing of the administration, with CNN noting during the transition that "no other Washington institution has that kind of footprint in the transition." One reason for the Heritage Foundation's disproportionate influence relative to other conservative think tanks is that other conservative think tanks had members who identified as "never-Trumpers" during the 2016 election, whereas the Heritage Foundation signaled early on to Trump that it would be supportive of him.

    In 2014, the Heritage Foundation began building a database of approximately 3,000 conservatives who they trusted to serve in a hypothetical Republican administration for the upcoming 2016 election. According to individuals involved in crafting the database, several hundred people from the Heritage database ultimately received jobs in the Trump administration At least 66 foundation employees and alumni got positions in the administration. The foundation also recommended cabinet members Scott Pruitt, Betsy DeVos, Mick Mulvaney, Rick Perry, and Jeff Sessions. Heritage head Jim DeMint personally intervened on behalf of Mulvaney, who would go on to head the Office of Management and Budget and the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. On December 14, Mulvaney also became the acting chief of staff - largely because no one else wanted the job.

    The Heritage Foundation is very much anti-immigrant. If you really have a LOT of patience, you can read their 30 page analysis of the cost of illegal immigrants - but I would not recommend it.

    http://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

    If you really wanted to get an ACCURATE picture of the cost/benefits of illegal immigrants, the best source is the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office. Their analysis is much shorter, at 12 pages, but it takes 4 more to list the bibiolgraphy of source material:

    http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdf

    The short version of their analysis, though, is this:

    "Over the past two decades, most efforts to estimate the fiscal impact of immigration in the United States have concluded that, in aggregate and over the long term, tax revenues of all types generated by immigrants—both legal and unauthorized—exceed the cost of the services they use."

    One organization that was inspired by the Heritage Foundation was the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), which was founded in 1979. It has managed to come up with some truly wacky numbers about immigration. According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, though, FAIR (which has ties to white supremacist groups and eugenicists) is far from a reliable source. In spite of that, some of the former employees of FAIR have now found jobs in the Trump administration.

    http://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/federation-american-immigration-reform

    One of the reports that FAIR developed was that illegal immigration was costing us $338.3 billion a year. Fortunately, the folks at FactCheck.org were able to point out how dumb that number was:

    http://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/cost-of-illegal-immigrants/

    The numbers produced by FAIR have been used by a wide variety of politicians. In June of 2018, Paul Gosar, a member of the House Freedom Caucus, claimed that illegal immigration costs us over $100 billion a year. The fact checkers at the Arizona Republic gave him One Star: Mostly false. If you read the article below in its entirety, you'll notice that the source material that was used is VERY extensive.

    http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/fact-check/2018/06/26/paul-gosar-how-much-do-undocumented-immigrants-cost-economy/691997002/

    In 2016, Trump stated that illegal immigrants cost us $113 billion a year. By January of 2018, that number had soared to $296 billion. An analysis by Politifact concluded that that number was way off, and that "the overall effect of immigration on economic growth was positive."

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/jan/23/donald-trump/does-immigration-policy-impose-300-billion-annuall/

    An organization called Illuminate our world debunked 10 immigration myths in August of 2018:

    http://www.illuminateourworld.org/single-post/2018/08/26/10-Illegal-Immigration-Myths-Debunked-Some-History-on-US-Immigration-Policy?gclid=CjwKCAiAyMHhBRBIEiwAkGN6fGoN9XW0civV9TYHcnG_aYfS8AaUGRaobh6yNlIQBXZq-xDmijl6LhoCw7AQAvD_BwE

    In July of 2012, the Obama White House published a list of 10 ways that immigrants help build and strengthen our economy:

    that http://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2012/07/12/ten-ways-immigrants-help-build-and-strengthen-our-economy

    The folks who are regular viewers of the FOX network aren't going to believe any of the information that I listed above. They are going to continue to believe the nonsense spouted by Trump's "deputy chief of staff", Sean Hannity, and nothing any of us say will change their mind. The town hall meeting of August 8, 2016, with Trump, Hannity, and Sebastian Gorka gave us a hint of what we might expect going forward:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/08/18/donald-trumps-town-hall-hosted-by-sean-hannity-was-absolutely-priceless/?utm_term=.dff6af9b758f

    (You may remember that Gorka became deputy assistant to Trump in January of 2017, but he was never able to obtain the security clearance necessary for national security issues, and he "resigned" in August of 2017, one week after Bannon left.)

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Kenosha, WI
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    Just for the hell of it, I did some checking on my own. As we know, trump uses fear mongering and inflates any number whenever he can. 57% of whites commit the majority of violent crimes, blacks committed less than that, and Hispanics or Latinos committed around 8% of violent crimes. There are not any statistics, government or other neutral source that show how many violent crimes were committed by "illegals". There may be right wing biased publications that will say that illegals committing violent crimes is great in numbers, but then a person with an open mind would need to interpret their statistics as either false or misleading because it would come under something close to a unreliable source. E.g., FOX news usually always distorts stories and misleads their audience with lies.

    I seriously doubt that the average person would even think of fact checking trumps wild and outrageous claims. He inflates numbers to make it look and sound like there's rampant crime committed by brown people. I've always thought he was a racist, we all know his father and grandfather had run ins with the feds over race. He, trump is just a chip of shit off of the old big turds of his ancestors.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Dockadams Wrote:

    Just for the hell of it, I did some checking on my own. As we know, trump uses fear mongering and inflates any number whenever he can. 57% of whites commit the majority of violent crimes, blacks committed less than that, and Hispanics or Latinos committed around 8% of violent crimes. There are not any statistics, government or other neutral source that show how many violent crimes were committed by "illegals". There may be right wing biased publications that will say that illegals committing violent crimes is great in numbers, but then a person with an open mind would need to interpret their statistics as either false or misleading because it would come under something close to a unreliable source. E.g., FOX news usually always distorts stories and misleads their audience with lies.

    I seriously doubt that the average person would even think of fact checking trumps wild and outrageous claims. He inflates numbers to make it look and sound like there's rampant crime committed by brown people. I've always thought he was a racist, we all know his father and grandfather had run ins with the feds over race. He, trump is just a chip of shit off of the old big turds of his ancestors.

    So father so son; pappy was an fanatic well known KKK member; it rubs off on tantrum "baby" Trump of course.
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Arizona -- That's a good summary with links. I will add that many of the conservative thinktanks and organizations owe their origin to the Powell Memorandum. I have discussed this memorandum (also called manifesto) a few times in this website, but if one were to trace the inspiration for the Heritage Foundation, Carthage (Scaife) Foundation, CATO institute and a few others like the Federalist Society and the Council for National Policy founded by the preacher Tim LaHaye, then one only needs to read the Powell Memorandum.

    Further on the religious front we have the incursion of right wing televangelists and other religious right leaders including Jerry Falwell, Ralph Reed, Tony Perkins, Gary Bauer, Pat Robertson, James Dobson and others who have promoted the concept that "God loves rich people" while they unashamedly push their "gospel for the rich".

    One could go on and on, but basically the conservative movement envisioned by Lewis Powell manifests itself in right wing influential organizations covering the whole gambit of business, education, the media and religion.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Schmidt Wrote:

    Arizona -- That's a good summary with links. I will add that many of the conservative thinktanks and organizations owe their origin to the Powell Memorandum. I have discussed this memorandum (also called manifesto) a few times in this website, but if one were to trace the inspiration for the Heritage Foundation, Carthage (Scaife) Foundation, CATO institute and a few others like the Federalist Society and the Council for National Policy founded by the preacher Tim LaHaye, then one only needs to read the Powell Memorandum.

    Further on the religious front we have the incursion of right wing televangelists and other religious right leaders including Jerry Falwell, Ralph Reed, Tony Perkins, Gary Bauer, Pat Robertson, James Dobson and others who have promoted the concept that "God loves rich people" while they unashamedly push their "gospel for the rich".

    One could go on and on, but basically the conservative movement envisioned by Lewis Powell manifests itself in right wing influential organizations covering the whole gambit of business, education, the media and religion.

    Schmidt,don't you think it is kind of strange that only in this country we have so many "rich" televangelists. I've never noticed such in Europe. That is why I keep hammering on "lobbyists" and influence peddling as is done on such large scale in this country. I guess "god" approves that they have huge yachts and private planes and has chosen Trump as our leader.

    What a country!

    So it is no wonder that the "Dem's" are fighting an uphill battle against all these organizations and "god"Crying.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    Dutch Wrote:
    Schmidt Wrote:

    Arizona -- That's a good summary with links. I will add that many of the conservative thinktanks and organizations owe their origin to the Powell Memorandum. I have discussed this memorandum (also called manifesto) a few times in this website, but if one were to trace the inspiration for the Heritage Foundation, Carthage (Scaife) Foundation, CATO institute and a few others like the Federalist Society and the Council for National Policy founded by the preacher Tim LaHaye, then one only needs to read the Powell Memorandum.

    Further on the religious front we have the incursion of right wing televangelists and other religious right leaders including Jerry Falwell, Ralph Reed, Tony Perkins, Gary Bauer, Pat Robertson, James Dobson and others who have promoted the concept that "God loves rich people" while they unashamedly push their "gospel for the rich".

    One could go on and on, but basically the conservative movement envisioned by Lewis Powell manifests itself in right wing influential organizations covering the whole gambit of business, education, the media and religion.

    Schmidt,don't you think it is kind of strange that only in this country we have so many "rich" televangelists. I've never noticed such in Europe. That is why I keep hammering on "lobbyists" and influence peddling as is done on such large scale in this country. I guess "god" approves that they have huge yachts and private planes and has chosen Trump as our leader.

    What a country!

    So it is no wonder that the "Dem's" are fighting an uphill battle against all these organizations and "god"Crying.

    We need a tax code that is in the national interest. JFK knew that when he said: "Ask not what your country can do for youask what you can do for your country,” He challenged every American to contribute in some way to the public good.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Jonathan Blitzer, The New Yorker, January 6, 2019: Donald Trump’s Failure to Address the Real Crisis at the Border

    Blitzer addresses the real problem at the border -- a refugee crisis.

    Our border security has historically been adapted over the years to deal with young men and seasonal workers sneaking into the country from Mexico. The majority of people now arriving at our southern border are asylum-seeking families and children from Central America. The 25,000 families who crossed the U.S. border in November were the highest on record. They were fleeing the violence, poverty, and rampant political corruption in Honduras, El Salvador, and Guatemala that makes these countries virtually uninhabitable.

    Unlike the Mexican young men of the past, the Central American families are not trying to evade anyone by climbing over or going around a wall or a fence. Rather, they present themselves to the first Border Patrol agents they can find and ask for asylum. “This is not a border-security crisis. It’s an administrative-processing problem.”

    “There is a refugee crisis in our hemisphere,” Cecilia Muñoz, who served as the director of the White House Domestic Policy Council under President Barack Obama said. “You can’t fix that at our border. The countries in the region—with the U.S. as the leader—need to try to deal with this collectively.” Yes the problem starts with the political security in these countries and not at our border.

    As Blitzer notes, "sending more asylum officers to the border and hiring more immigration judges are obvious steps to reduce the growing queue of migrants, but the real issue is a series of deeper bureaucratic limitations". Trump has exasperated the problem by undoing Obama era initiatives to lessen the impact on families. Trump, the perennial authoritarian bully, is taking a sledge hammer approach to the problem without success. And his fuckin' wall will not change the humanitarian crisis in the Central American countries or do anything to stop asylum seeking families from arriving at our border.

    The $5.7 billion he wants for the wall would be much better spent dealing with the problem at its source. However, Trump made a campaign promise and Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter are holding him to it.

    Nancy Pelosi needs to remain resolute on not funding the wall and shift the narrative to the fixing the problem at its source.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    That's right Schmidt. These people are answering the lifeline:

    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.”

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Schmidt, as long as the GOP remains an Trump party, they will act like he does. Everything they do is "top down" never look at the source or "action and reaction", I guess they don't learn here in school how to analyse a problem. Like the "gun" problem; thus start at the "beginning" with the "second amendment"; amend that document to reflect 2018. In this country they always put "bandaids" on things but seldom look at the initial cause and fix that. Obama understood this and looked at what happened in those countries where the refugee's came from and provided foreign aid to alleviate the problem were it started. But by electing an President who never had any schooling nor accepts anything what makes sense, or wants to learn, then the problem becomes only bigger by surrounding himself with indoctrinated "butt" crawlers, Like Nielsen, Pence, Mulvaney, Ross. Navarro, Meadows, Jordan, DeVos etc. etc.

    Thus the "wall" issue stays the same, because of pure stupidity thanks to "uneducated voters" and the GOP indoctrination; Therefore the Dem's should try to kick out DeVos as soon as possible in order to get another "mind set" in this country from the start of a new generation.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Tucson, AZ
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    Dutch:

    One of the best discussions about televangelists that I have ever seen was a skit that John Oliver aired about 3 years ago:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    that guy in AZ Wrote:

    Dutch:

    One of the best discussions about televangelists that I have ever seen was a skit that John Oliver aired about 3 years ago:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg

    Thanks Arizona; yes only in America is such possible because have become gullible and naive being on an indoctrinated "island"; that is how you get an President who fills his pockets the same way as the televangelist do.
  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    How much time was spent discussing the ugly problems in Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador ? My guess is less than 5 minutes. Sad that we don't look at the bigger picture.
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Kenosha, WI
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    Presently, this problem at the border isn't so much about illegals as it is becoming a humanitarian crisis, of course trump will call it a national security crisis, he is supposed to go to the border and set up a news conference, and once again, he will lie and exaggerate his matters of a national emergency, and of course, they've sent frontmen to get people in the audience who are sympathetic to his cause, it'll be like a campaign rally. again.

    This administration doesn't have anyone in it who are sympathetic to human beings, and that's a huge problem for the GOP and trump.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Dock, it is no longer a "border" problem,but just an "political" one. Trump wants UNLIMITED "power. He hates rules or laws and step by step breaks every one. As soon as someone stands up to him he will use all the "mob" tools he used in NY with his buildings and connections. An "decent" well educated person has no chance because they have not learned how the "mob" works; the "rules" are totally different. Trump wants to be as Putin, just eradicate the opposition, that is his only goal. He will "use" people for his own elevation and then drops them like a stone. No wonder he loves Putin and Kim. Too bad for him is that he can't yet "kill" people who he does not like; but may be Putin/Kim will teach him how to.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    The border problem as it is now was purely created by Trump himself. Obama set up a system in those countries like Honduras, Guatemala etc. for refugee's to be able to apply in these countries itself to get a visa etc. Trump abolished that and also reduces aid to those countries. No wonder those people have no other option then flee their country.

    The main problem is Trump; he has no brains, other than on how to get "rich". All the problems were created by himself to give the "baby" attention. He never in his life did analyse anything, except he looks up to people like Putin and Kim; those he uses an example and wants to be like that. However he forgets the background of these two, as well that they are lots smarter than him.