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Make Mr. Trump Unelectable

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  • Brooks, AB
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    Let's be honest. People here on DemocraticHub don't like Donald Trump and are confounded as to why his 30% base sticks with him when he clearly has great character flaws and makes so many political mistakes.

    Maybe by continuing to contribute to this forum, one might be able to convince a few Trump supporters to "see the light". Or maybe our contributions might encourage non-voting citizens to vote Democrat next time. Or maybe our contributions might encourage traditional D supporters to spend a little more time on the election than just voting. But I would wager we aren't changing the world that much here.

    If Mr. Trump is such a flawed choice, then should we not be criticizing the electoral system that put him into power?

    I have been on DH for about four months. In a few places, I have offered an alternative system of governance where the likes of Mr. Trump will not rise very high. If we really don't want Mr. Trump (and more than a few others) in politics, then the TDG (Tiered Democratic Governance) should be an alternative worth considering.

    From my website statistics, no one from Democratic Hub has gone to my website.

    The TDG is about a three-hour read. I would wish it could be condensed into a 200-word internet post, but it can't. You will have to spend that three hours to see all the angles and make an assessment as to the TDG's worthiness or not. In the meantime, many of you are spending at least three hours each month making contributions that really won't matter than much. Can anyone explain this paradox to me?

    davevolek.org/TDG/TDGindex.html

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Dave; may be I'm nuts, but reading your 3 hour "document" does not change anything, because if you read all the issues I mentioned in my threads, then also you should know that this country hates "changes" for the better. Do you really think that they will "drop": the electoral college, piles of money and lobbyists, billionaires in elections, a "two" party system, the Constitution as was written, the "second amendment" etc. They did not do anything at all over more than 250 years to adapt such to the present times, let alone fire the zillion lawyers who make fortunes trying to twist and turn this antique document so it will suit someone, to make money or get an twisted judgement? so you think all of a sudden they will wake up? Forget it, so I won't waste 3 hours of my time. Did you look at the Kavanaugh hearing; it was worse than an 6th grader hearing. Totally "cooked and baked" beforehand.

    Sorry, but this country is doomed and too stubborn to change in their ways.

  • Independent
    Washington
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    Dutch Wrote: Sorry, but this country is doomed and too stubborn to change in their ways.

    Naw, is not that bad, its just not perfect and based on your history of comments, anything short of your exceptions is labeled "doomed". Overall you sound more like someone from Trump's base who thinks the country was far greater the further back in time we go.

    The more the clock could be rolled back, the better off American is perceived to have been.... At least from the Conservative White Male perspective when wife beating was perfectly acceptable because she couldn't vote or own property. And by god, that dinner better be on the table when her husband walked in the door or there was hell to pay. If the policed were called, they would backup the husband for being justified in beating the shit out of her and the children... If a black man accidentally touched the hand of a white woman while handling her grocery bags, he'd be tied to a tree and beaten until close to death. Yeah, the good old days that white guys miss, and yeah its a pretty sad history for the US.

  • Brooks, AB
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    Dutch

    Over the years of promoting the TDG, I have encountered more than a few people who the believe the world is heading over the edge--sooner than later! You are not the first!

    I think there have been thinkers like this for a very long time. I remember reading a historical synopsis of the aftermath of the publishing of "Fall and Decline in the American Empire". Many literate British were quite consumed about this book and saw the parallels between Rome and the UK. Gibbon's book got more attention than 13 colonies in teh Americas staging a little revolt.

    In some ways, the analogy was correct. The UK was on the verge of losing its international superiority--and it had another 150 years to lose its empire. But the British people themselves never regressed to any form of barbarism or fuedal order or decline of their civilization. So the analogy was not correct in this point. In terms of creating the better society for its people, the UK did not really fall at all.

    But if I truly believed that the world, in particular the western world, was heading for inevitable decline (and those of us with perceiving eyes can see the signs), I wouldn't be spending a lot of time making posts on the internet about the decline. I just might focusing on having a good time in the last days.

    I have a friend who believes "the end is near". He has built a secluded cabin in the woods, stocked with food and firearms. He is ready for the Apocalypse. But at least he is doing something rather than just complaining.

    So my challenge to you is: "Why are you wasting your time on Democratic Hub--especially when anything you can point out to us is going to happen regardless of whether we read your posts or agree with them. To me, it sounds like a fire in the cinema, and someone shouting: "Don't try the doors because management probably locked them."

  • Brooks, AB
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    Dutch again

    I figure the building of the TDG will be an unstoppable process when 1% of the population agrees to a few hours a month into this project. It will snowball after that, but it make take a decade or two for that snowball get big enough to take seriously.

    In the meantime, the early TDG builders do not need to get permission or approval from:

    1. Mr. Trump

    2. Mr. Obama

    3. Mr. Bush

    4. Mr & Ms. Clinton

    5 The D or R parties.

    6. Congress

    7. The UN

    8. Canadians

    9. Most Americans

    10. 50%+1 Americans

    11. 40 of Americans

    12. Even 5% of Americans

    13. 3/4 of the state legislators

    14. Not even one state legislator

    15. Not even one municipal district

    It is all about a few people in the same locality coming together to write a new constitution for their early local TDG. They are coming together because 1) they recognize the current system is failing, 2) the current system cannot be fixed, and 3) they are willing to put a few hours a month into building another system.

    I think you can see points 1 and 2, but can't come to #3.

  • Brooks, AB
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    wwjd

    Yep, far too many people like bringing up nostalgia. Things were so much better in the 1950s, or 1920s, or 1880s. What a crock. Sorry, I have had three medical ailments for which I would have probably died had I lived 100 years ago.

    The average working family strived just to survive. There were very few workers taking vacations or seeing their kids go to college. The prosperity of the middle class from 1950 to 1990 in the western world was a historical anomaly. While it is great that economic classes could elevate themselves (or their kids) with a little hard work and sensible spending----and we should strive for this culture, relying on nostalgia to bring it back is not going to bring it back.

    And yes, we have socially progressed. A man can no longer beat his wife and expect society to watch. I'm kind of hoping that some day we'll come to collective understanding that all our vices are hurting us.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Dave -- I had said I would read your article, but I just had too many other things going on that I haven't had time. I'll give it a shot yet some morning when I'm up early. Cape Town is eight hours ahead of MDT, and I have lots of distractions here as well, including two young grandchildren.

    Without reading it though, a point I have made before and will make again is that I see little chance of changing the electoral college system as long as Republicans have control of 3/4th of the states, and the electoral college system clearly benefits Republican controlled rural states.

    In fact I would fear more a Constitutional Convention called by these Republican controlled states with the intent of even further solidifying their power.

    There is a time and place perhaps in the far future when we might indeed decide that the electoral college needs to be abolished, but I don't see it happening in the next decade or so if ever.

  • Independent
    Washington
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    Dave, I shall take a look at your ideas. What I am curious about is if what you propose can be done without a scrapping everything and starting all over. If your proposal requires dumping the current system and replacing it with yours all at once, no matter how good your ideas might be, it will never happen in the US or any other country unless the government is violently over thrown and a new government is created to replace the old. However, if your ideas can be implement in such a way that can be integrated with the current system by replacing various parts one at time, then over the long haul, decades or centuries, what you propose could come about.

    One example. A new voting\election system could replace the current one without forcing an overhaul of the entire government, and ideally be done at the local level (think grass roots) and have it expand up, rather than implemented at the a federal level, and forced down; too likely to be rejected as being big brother forcing common people adopt something without getting their approval in advance. And other example would be adding\removing items to the Constitution without scraping the entire thing.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Dave, Schmidt, WWJD, Sure Schmidt is correct by saying that likely the "electoral college" won't be scrapped. Thus if no one scraps that, then also all the other anomalies stay in place, as well the corrupt PAC's as well NRA "money" in the elections. I just read that they appointed an new head of the IRS; this guy has been chosen to allow "black" money to be used in elections; thus another step in the opposite direction. Also the appointment of Kavanaugh, likely pushed through by the GOP even if he lied under oath and did not answer most of the questions, as well that the FBI has received an memo about sexual conduct by Kavanaugh. Thus everyday things go "backwards". Sure I'm not that negative that indeed this country is doomed, hoping that things will straighten out over time, but that will be long time before such damage done is repaired (if ever). Like Dave said also the UK recovered after loosing all their colonies; the same with the Dutch but it may take "centuries" . In the meantime countries like China, India, may bypass the US in becoming world leaders instead of the US.

    The difference with other "empires" in the past is that the US is actually an "island" with its own habits, non culture, greed, being arrogant and an consumption society as well super militaristic and religious, in which personal happiness and mental health is on the bottom of the list. Thus it may not end like other empires at all, but looking at Venezuela some comparisons can be made; especially if this country becomes an dictatorship as Trump wishes.

  • Brooks, AB
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    Schmidt Wrote:

    Without reading it though, a point I have made before and will make again is that I see little chance of changing the electoral college system as long as Republicans have control of 3/4th of the states, and the electoral college system clearly benefits Republican controlled rural states.

    In fact I would fear more a Constitutional Convention called by these Republican controlled states with the intent of even further solidifying their power.

    There is a time and place perhaps in the far future when we might indeed decide that the electoral college needs to be abolished, but I don't see it happening in the next decade or so if ever.

    Schmidt

    In my attempt to build a better world, I spent six years inside of a Canadian political party. I was hoping that my "enlightened" involvement would somehow create better governance. I came to the conclusion that I was wasting my time.

    But I did learn a few things, one of the being the system cannot repair itself. The internal psychology in political parties will not allow such repairs. Whether Mr. Trump is still in power or the D's find a messiah who not only promises to fix things but resonates with average Americans or a Convention of States is rewrite the Constitution, none of these will effect the repairs we really need to be making.

    That is why the TDG must be built outside the current system. The early builders will have develop a new psychology to make to make the TDG work. We cannot bring much old order thinking into this new way.

    As the current system is failing, that 1% of citizen is building its replacement. The TDG will be getting skills and experience to eventually take on the responsibilities of governance. And eventually, the general citizenry will see the TDG as the replacement--and the partisan political order will give way.

    Perhaps an anology may be that, at best, we can continue to keep the Ford Model T running, but we can never turn it into a Toyota Celica!

  • Brooks, AB
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    wwjd Wrote:

    Dave, I shall take a look at your ideas. What I am curious about is if what you propose can be done without a scrapping everything and starting all over. If your proposal requires dumping the current system and replacing it with yours all at once, no matter how good your ideas might be, it will never happen in the US or any other country unless the government is violently over thrown and a new government is created to replace the old. However, if your ideas can be implement in such a way that can be integrated with the current system by replacing various parts one at time, then over the long haul, decades or centuries, what you propose could come about.

    One example. A new voting\election system could replace the current one without forcing an overhaul of the entire government, and ideally be done at the local level (think grass roots) and have it expand up, rather than implemented at the a federal level, and forced down; too likely to be rejected as being big brother forcing common people adopt something without getting their approval in advance. And other example would be adding\removing items to the Constitution without scraping the entire thing.

    wwjd

    After I wrote and published my first edition in 2000, a thoughtful reader asked the very some question. I had no answer, but I sure did a lot of thinking.

    There is no way we can just replace western democracy with the TDG overnight. And there is no way the early TDG builders will have the experience to skillfully govern. I came to the conclusion that an instantaneous repair would be a disaster.

    But as alluded to in my comments to Schmidt, the TDG cannot work inside the political order. For example, working for a political party is mostly about winning elections, not improving electoral systems. If that 1% went into the political parties, they would have no time or energy left for the TDG. Same for activism!

    In Chapter 6, I describe the process to put the TDG in place. This will take at least a decade, maybe two. In this process, the early TDG builders will be acquiring the skills and culture to make the TDG work. And they will be doing all sorts of experienments to find out what works and what doesn't work. As they are building, the TDG will be seen more credible in the eyes of the general citizenry. And the current system is unlikely to improve itself in this time, perhaps worsen.

    There will be a time when it becomes obvious (except to small minority) that the TDG is indeed superior to western democracy. It will harder for partisan forces to resist this change. There will be a transfer of authority and responsibility from the governing political party to the highest tier of the TDG. At this point, all the electoral laws of western democracy will be replaced with TDG electoral laws. In other words, the citizenry will be electing their representatives much differently than before.

    Most other institutions of governance will remain in place as before. But with the TDG in place, they could be overhauled or replaced. For example, the nature of the media is going to change without any direct action of the TDG. It will be harder to find conflict, controversy, and contention inside the TDG. And maybe some institutions will remain more or less the same after the TDG takes over.

    Understand the TDG will bring about a new way of working together. Anything is possible.

  • Brooks, AB
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    Dutch Wrote:

    Dave, Schmidt, WWJD, Sure Schmidt is correct by saying that likely the "electoral college" won't be scrapped. Thus if no one scraps that, then also all the other anomalies stay in place, as well the corrupt PAC's as well NRA "money" in the elections. I just read that they appointed an new head of the IRS; this guy has been chosen to allow "black" money to be used in elections; thus another step in the opposite direction. Also the appointment of Kavanaugh, likely pushed through by the GOP even if he lied under oath and did not answer most of the questions, as well that the FBI has received an memo about sexual conduct by Kavanaugh. Thus everyday things go "backwards". Sure I'm not that negative that indeed this country is doomed, hoping that things will straighten out over time, but that will be long time before such damage done is repaired (if ever). Like Dave said also the UK recovered after loosing all their colonies; the same with the Dutch but it may take "centuries" . In the meantime countries like China, India, may bypass the US in becoming world leaders instead of the US.

    The difference with other "empires" in the past is that the US is actually an "island" with its own habits, non culture, greed, being arrogant and an consumption society as well super militaristic and religious, in which personal happiness and mental health is on the bottom of the list. Thus it may not end like other empires at all, but looking at Venezuela some comparisons can be made; especially if this country becomes an dictatorship as Trump wishes.

    Dutch. The debate around the electoral college is interesting. But it is a moot point. In Chapter 2, I outline 12 Limitations of Western Democracy. I frame these limitations as something to fix. But whether the electoral college stays or goes, it will not effect even one of these limitations.

    I'm not a believer in any deep state. But if there is such an entity, it should be overjoyed that it is keeping many citizens preoccupied with this "change"---and continue on with its deep state antics.

    Likewise the D's seem to building a soapbox for their new messiah, Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. This will consume a lot of energy from what really ails America, for sure. Deep state wins again!

    I haven't been following the Kavanagh hearings. But in these days of alternative facts, anything can be immediately made up to discredit someone. Another sign that the current system is failing.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Dave, if you look at the "whole" picture here, then it should be clear that the biggest opposition will come from the "rich" and "powerful" they run this country. Also if you let an country run by the "dumbest" part of the country because of the "electoral college" then Alabama and Iowa will run the show. Having an "partisan" Supreme court with old age people set in their ways does not help either. However all of this is "baked" in and only an total revolution may change it. Thus I stick with my believe that this country is sliding slowly but surely towards the bottom shitty part of the swamp.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    Dutch,

    "Also if you let an country run by the "dumbest" part of the country because of the "electoral college" then Alabama and Iowa will run the show".

    Dutch, Election 2016 was an exception. Hillary as well as radical subjective supporters were so sure that Hillary was going to win that they didn't campaign objectively. They totally ignored the 40 years of stagnant wages. If campaigned correctly Hillary would have won. She had a 4 million surplus of votes from and spent a lot of money in Califirnia. You yourself don't think wages is an issue. And if you and the establishment Democrats don't recognize the plight of the middle class Trump will win again even if he is in jail. I have been following Hillary closely and she still is not recognizing the working class. There may be a signal from Perez that the DNC is finally seeing the light.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    Dave Volek Wrote:

    Let's be honest. People here on DemocraticHub don't like Donald Trump and are confounded as to why his 30% base sticks with him when he clearly has great character flaws and makes so many political mistakes.

    Maybe by continuing to contribute to this forum, one might be able to convince a few Trump supporters to "see the light". Or maybe our contributions might encourage non-voting citizens to vote Democrat next time. Or maybe our contributions might encourage traditional D supporters to spend a little more time on the election than just voting. But I would wager we aren't changing the world that much here.

    If Mr. Trump is such a flawed choice, then should we not be criticizing the electoral system that put him into power?

    I have been on DH for about four months. In a few places, I have offered an alternative system of governance where the likes of Mr. Trump will not rise very high. If we really don't want Mr. Trump (and more than a few others) in politics, then the TDG (Tiered Democratic Governance) should be an alternative worth considering.

    From my website statistics, no one from Democratic Hub has gone to my website.

    The TDG is about a three-hour read. I would wish it could be condensed into a 200-word internet post, but it can't. You will have to spend that three hours to see all the angles and make an assessment as to the TDG's worthiness or not. In the meantime, many of you are spending at least three hours each month making contributions that really won't matter than much. Can anyone explain this paradox to me?

    davevolek.org/TDG/TDGindex.html

    Dave, The way to handle Trump is take his claims to fame one by one. Acknowledge his accomplishments and the how we can take his starts and turn them into rockets to success. It is easy to show how his plans are sthmied by Republican principles whereas they are custom made for Democratic improvements. Exemplify his promise of insurance for everybody and show how the Democratic way can make it a world enby. I had expressed this idea during the campaign and shortly thereafter Saturday Night Live did a skit about it.