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Trump University may enlighten students .

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  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
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    Pensacola, FL
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    I think the Trump University settlement sets a precedent for college kids that can't get a good job. There is no denying that a lot of college degrees like "Communications" are worthless. When kids indebt themselves for tens of thousands of dollars for a degree that gets minimum wage while other kids get 70k starting salary for the same costs, that is criminal against the low earning kids. If a degree doesn't provide a good living then kids should get back all the money they spent. Does anybody warn kids about the potential of a life of debt for paying for college?

    Art: DNC

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
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    Portland, OR
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    Chet Ruminski Wrote: I think the Trump University settlement sets a precedent for college kids that can't get a good job. There is no denying that a lot of college degrees like "Communications" are worthless. When kids indebt themselves for tens of thousands of dollars for a degree that gets minimum wage while other kids get 70k starting salary for the same costs, that is criminal against the low earning kids. If a degree doesn't provide a good living then kids should get back all the money they spent.

    I have plenty of concerns when it comes to the cost of higher education. The Federal government charges too high of an interest rate on Federal loans (subsidized, unsubsidized, Direct PLUS) and then makes it just about impossible to have those loans forgiven and the for-profit Student Loan industry preys on poor students and families to take on even more debt if all the loans a student took out doesn't cover the cost of tuition and board. It's a another financial crisis waiting to happen. The Pell grant is a phenomenal thing, but it needs to be expanded exponentially.

    However, I don't know if criminalizing degrees that don't automatically provide a graduate a good wage is the answer. For starters - what is the definition of a "good living" anyway? Does someone have to make enough to be able to afford a 4 bedroom house on a half acre of property or is it good enough for a single person to be able to afford a one bedroom apartment?

    What about the persons zip code? I was able to rent a two bedroom house in Central Illinois for half the price of the rent of my first apartment in Portland, Oregon. My wife and I's townhouse is a fraction of the size of my parents five bedroom, three story house in Central Illinois, but our zip code apparently makes our townhouse worth more.

    My dad graduated with a business degree in 1977, worked his ass off to get an entry-level job at Caterpillar, and then worked his ass off for another decade before he was hired into management. He was able to retire at 60 and he and my mom are quite comfortable now, but I never heard him say he "deserved a good living because he got a college degree." He worked hard and was rewarded for his hard work. His degree simply helped him get his foot in the door; his work moved him up the ladder.

    The issue of the cost of college education is stubbornly complex, but criminalizing certain degrees or penalizing schools for the students inability to get a job isn't the answer.

    Chet Ruminski Wrote: Does anybody warn kids about the potential of a life of debt for paying for college?

    As a former college admissions counselor, YES...a million times YES!

    College admissions counselors do; Financial Aid offices do; the Federal government does; and private loan companies do. It has nothing to do with the student not being warned about what it means when they sign on the dotted line. It's far more complicated than that.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    Kids are lied to. "There is no excuse for not continuing education through college" is the standard mantra drummed into kid's heads from birth. If you have a problem conceptualizing a worthwhile earning standard for a college degree than how about the school conferring the degree guaranteeing a job until retirement. Did or would your dad consider whether or not a degree was essential to get a good paying job. There was actually zero oversight and accountability for the student loan program . Did you as a counselor encounter any of the worthless degrees like: "
    • Communications. A bachelor's degree in communications could lead to nearly any career in the realm of media, visual arts, or broadcasting. ...
    • Psychology. ...
    • Theatre Arts. ...
    • Fashion Design. ...
    • Sociology. ...
    • Liberal Arts. ...
    • Microelectronic Engineering. ...
    • Fine Arts.

    If so, how did you deal/advise the pursuit of worthless degrees ???

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Kenosha, WI
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Chet Ruminski Wrote: I think the Trump University settlement sets a precedent for college kids that can't get a good job. There is no denying that a lot of college degrees like "Communications" are worthless. When kids indebt themselves for tens of thousands of dollars for a degree that gets minimum wage while other kids get 70k starting salary for the same costs, that is criminal against the low earning kids. If a degree doesn't provide a good living then kids should get back all the money they spent.

    I have plenty of concerns when it comes to the cost of higher education. The Federal government charges too high of an interest rate on Federal loans (subsidized, unsubsidized, Direct PLUS) and then makes it just about impossible to have those loans forgiven and the for-profit Student Loan industry preys on poor students and families to take on even more debt if all the loans a student took out doesn't cover the cost of tuition and board. It's a another financial crisis waiting to happen. The Pell grant is a phenomenal thing, but it needs to be expanded exponentially.

    However, I don't know if criminalizing degrees that don't automatically provide a graduate a good wage is the answer. For starters - what is the definition of a "good living" anyway? Does someone have to make enough to be able to afford a 4 bedroom house on a half acre of property or is it good enough for a single person to be able to afford a one bedroom apartment?

    What about the persons zip code? I was able to rent a two bedroom house in Central Illinois for half the price of the rent of my first apartment in Portland, Oregon. My wife and I's townhouse is a fraction of the size of my parents five bedroom, three story house in Central Illinois, but our zip code apparently makes our townhouse worth more.

    My dad graduated with a business degree in 1977, worked his ass off to get an entry-level job at Caterpillar, and then worked his ass off for another decade before he was hired into management. He was able to retire at 60 and he and my mom are quite comfortable now, but I never heard him say he "deserved a good living because he got a college degree." He worked hard and was rewarded for his hard work. His degree simply helped him get his foot in the door; his work moved him up the ladder.

    The issue of the cost of college education is stubbornly complex, but criminalizing certain degrees or penalizing schools for the students inability to get a job isn't the answer.

    Chet Ruminski Wrote: Does anybody warn kids about the potential of a life of debt for paying for college?

    As a former college admissions counselor, YES...a million times YES!

    College admissions counselors do; Financial Aid offices do; the Federal government does; and private loan companies do. It has nothing to do with the student not being warned about what it means when they sign on the dotted line. It's far more complicated than that.

    Hey, look at the other side of this, if we had Bernie as a prez, we could all attend college for free!
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Kenosha, WI
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    Chet Ruminski Wrote:

    I think the Trump University settlement sets a precedent for college kids that can't get a good job. There is no denying that a lot of college degrees like "Communications" are worthless. When kids indebt themselves for tens of thousands of dollars for a degree that gets minimum wage while other kids get 70k starting salary for the same costs, that is criminal against the low earning kids. If a degree doesn't provide a good living then kids should get back all the money they spent. Does anybody warn kids about the potential of a life of debt for paying for college?

    Art: DNC

    My cousin went to college for 8 years and obtained a teaching degree, he flipped burgers in restaurant for another 3 waiting to get hired for a teaching job, he's lucky though, his dad worked at Caterpillar and subsidies helped pay for my cousin's college, other people have to pay through the nose, it's the American way.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
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    Pensacola, FL
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    All supports my charge that the Democratic Party is neglecting the citizens. When Trump announced lots if good paying jobs I said here that he is stealing what should be the Democratic platform .
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
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    Pensacola, FL
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    Read what the enemy of the working class, Phil Gramm, has to say:

    /amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/the-gops-tax-the-rich-temptation-1507487704

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Chet Ruminski Wrote: All supports my charge that the Democratic Party is neglecting the citizens. When Trump announced lots if good paying jobs I said here that he is stealing what should be the Democratic platform .

    And this statement supports my belief that you are woefully misinformed of how the Federal government operates.

    Democrats can push for "free college for all" as much as they want, but the only thing that's going to do is disappoint people who vote for Democrats when the Republicans say "good luck with that" and block it.

    Then, as they typically do, those who voted for Democrats will blame the Democrats and the Democratic National Committee instead of the Republicans for everything and sit on their ass in the next election. After that the Republicans will continue to stack the Federal courts with right-wing judges that will overturn whatever liberal laws we eventually do pass, setting us back decades or more in all the things so-called liberals claim to care about.

    Then disillusioned people will again fall for the fanciful promises that demagogues like Donald and Bernie promise them and the cycle will repeat itself.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
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    Pensacola, FL
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Chet Ruminski Wrote: All supports my charge that the Democratic Party is neglecting the citizens. When Trump announced lots if good paying jobs I said here that he is stealing what should be the Democratic platform .

    And this statement supports my belief that you are woefully misinformed of how the Federal government operates.

    Democrats can push for "free college for all" as much as they want, but the only thing that's going to do is disappoint people who vote for Democrats when the Republicans say "good luck with that" and block it.

    Then, as they typically do, those who voted for Democrats will blame the Democrats and the Democratic National Committee instead of the Republicans for everything and sit on their ass in the next election. After that the Republicans will continue to stack the Federal courts with right-wing judges that will overturn whatever liberal laws we eventually do pass, setting us back decades or more in all the things so-called liberals claim to care about.

    Then disillusioned people will again fall for the fanciful promises that demagogues like Donald and Bernie promise them and the cycle will repeat itself.

    What does this have to do with lots of good paying jobs. Nothing to do with free college. This supports my belief that you have no clue that the Democratic Party drifted away from taking care of the working class. Every Democrat should start every sentence with we have to rectify everything Phil Gramm did.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
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    Portland, OR
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    Chet Ruminski Wrote: What does this have to do with lots of good paying jobs. Nothing to do with free college.

    My post has everything to do with "good paying jobs" and "free college." A solid minority of Democrats have fallen for politicians who promise them everything in the world..."for free!!!" without ever once thinking critically about how all this "free" stuff will be paid for. Their mantra is "low taxes and free everything!" Or I should say "low taxes [for me] and free everything!"

    How do you suppose "free college" for tens of millions of people will be provided? How do you suppose universities will be able to attract competent professors if they are paid sub par salaries? And how do you suppose we fight the inevitable Constitutional challenge concerning "free college!" when it comes to state versus Federal rights in the courts? I would be very hard pressed to see any Appeals Court other than the 9th say that there's a Constitutional right to a post-secondary education, but even if the 9th ruled it Constitutional, I would be SHOCKED if the Supreme Court didn't overrule them.

    Now, I'm all for community colleges offering deeply discounted (paid for by the local taxpayers!) education and trade program certificates, but most community colleges are already doing that. Students can get an associates degree or enroll in a trade program for little to zero money at all already. What we haven't figured out as a society is how to make it affordable for the lower and middle classes to take the next step into an affordable bachelors program at a state or private university.

    This is what I'm trying to get across. Promises of free! this and free! that undoubtedly fire up the base, but they are terrible in the long run because it only pisses off the base when they find out that there's no such thing as a free lunch.

    Chet Ruminski Wrote: This supports my belief that you have no clue that the Democratic Party drifted away from taking care of the working class. Every Democrat should start every sentence with we have to rectify everything Phil Gramm did.

    "Those who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it."

    I'm well aware of the history of the Democratic Party, Chet. I'm aware of the good, bad, and downright ugly history of the Democratic Party.

    We were the party of slavery, Jim Crow, and segregation which also happened to be the party that helped out the "working [WHITE] man" (and only men).

    We're now the party of inclusiveness, gay rights, women's rights, civil rights, and still care about the working people, but unfortunately some of those people decided that following demagogues who promise them everything in the world for free! is easier than ever thinking critically about stubbornly complex problems facing our country.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    "We're now the party of inclusiveness, gay rights, women's rights, civil rights, and still care about the working people,"

    Just not true. At the beginning of the campaign when I said "Lots of good paying jobs" should have been Hillary's slogan you challenged that. You said conditions were good under Obama. You also challenged the 40 years of stagnant wages.

    Why Wages Aren't Growing in America - Harvard Business Review

    Harvard Business Review › 2017/10 › w...


    Oct 24, 2017 · For wages to grow on

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    Jared said

    "We were the party of slavery, Jim Crow, and segregation which also happened to be the party that helped out the "working [WHITE] man" (and only men)."

    And the party of SOCIAL SECURITY,

    He took the first Federal action to prohibit employment discrimination

    Franklin D. Roosevelt was a hero to major minority groups, especially African Americans, Catholics, and Jews. The Indian Reorganization Act of 1934 was passed to provide ways for Native Americans to re-establish sovereignty and self-government; and to achieve economic self-sufficiency.

    Minimum wage and 40 hour work week.

    And what was the Republican party doing, then and now.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    Ten Major Accomplishments of FDR

    learnodo-newtonic.com/fdr-accomplishmen...

    Also don't apply this fallacy .

    Exception fallacy

    Disciplines > Argument > Fallacies > Exception fallacy

    Description | Discussion | Example | See also

    Description

    The exception fallacy occurs when data about an individual is used to draw conclusions about a group of people.

    For example:

    "For starters - what is the definition of a "good living" anyway?"

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Chet Ruminski Wrote:

    "We're now the party of inclusiveness, gay rights, women's rights, civil rights, and still care about the working people,"

    Just not true. At the beginning of the campaign when I said "Lots of good paying jobs" should have been Hillary's slogan you challenged that. You said conditions were good under Obama. You also challenged the 40 years of stagnant wages.

    Why Wages Aren't Growing in America - Harvard Business Review

    Harvard Business Review › 2017/10 › w...


    Oct 24, 2017 · For wages to grow on

    President Obama inherited an economic shit storm of biblical proportions that was months old by the time he took office and (WITH THE HELP OF CONGRESS!!!) helped start righting the ship.

    It is a fact that the economic conditions at the end of Obama's tenure were exponentially better than they were when he entered office. He inherited an economy in absolute free fall that was shredding hundreds of thousands of jobs a month and he (WITH THE HELP OF CONGRESS!!!) turned it around faster than FDR could have ever dreamed of.

    And what thanks did he get? Democrats sitting on their ass in the 2010 elections, which fucked our party over six ways from Sunday for the next decade or more because a bunch of far right-wing demagogues were given the power to redraw Congressional district lines in their favor.

    This is what I'm always trying to get across to people like you, Chet. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Sitting on your ass and not voting, voting for a third party, or crossing parties and voting for a narcissistic sociopath because your preferred candidate didn't win a party nomination have real world consequences.

    Republicans have figured that out. Unfortunately, Democrats have not.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Chet Ruminski Wrote:

    Jared said

    "We were the party of slavery, Jim Crow, and segregation which also happened to be the party that helped out the "working [WHITE] man" (and only men)."

    And the party of SOCIAL SECURITY,

    He took the first Federal action to prohibit employment discrimination

    Franklin D. Roosevelt was a hero to major minority groups, especially African Americans, Catholics, and Jews. The Indian Reorganization Act of 1934 was passed to provide ways for Native Americans to re-establish sovereignty and self-government; and to achieve economic self-sufficiency.

    Minimum wage and 40 hour work week.

    And what was the Republican party doing, then and now.

    I was talking about the history of the Democratic Party, Chet. Please read the words people write and not the words you wish people wrote.

    I'm not going to get in a back and forth with you about FDR. I've written extensively about my issues with lionizing FDR's Administration, especially when it comes to how black people fared under the New Deal and how those decisions excluding them are still reverberating to this day.

    You are free to dig up those threads and respond to them, but this thread has nothing to do with that.