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Alan Dershowitz states the President can legally obstruct justice

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  • Independent
    Washington
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    Alan Dershowitz is a well known civil Liberation attorney.

    The gist of Dershowitz argument is that, by definition, using presidential powers granted to all presidents in Constitution means it is legal for US Presidents to use those presidential powers in any way they want and its always legal.

    Simply stated, from Dershowitz's legal perspective there is no such thing as "abuse of power" or "obstruction of justice" by the president because there is nothing in the Constitution that limits power under specific conditions.

    In theory, trump can use presidential powers to overtly commit any crimes he wanted and its perfectly legal.

    However, it should be noted that individuals or government agencies can refuse orders that they believe are crimes, but the president remains immune from prosecution no matter how many crimes he commits or how appalling.

    The only legal recourse is impeachment. Which is a political act, not a legal one.

  • Independent
    Washington
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    And if I understand things correctly, the president has the presidential powers to order people to commit crimes on his behalf, but they are not immune from prosecution, even if the President remains immune from criminal prosecution

    It really comes down to whether or not a a president feels his actions are politically acceptable enough not to get impeached.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Kenosha, WI
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    Trump's lead attorney Juliani thinks the same thing. Immune from prosecution. Teflon Don. nothing sticks.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Nixon said the same thing. I wasn't alive back then, but I have watched his interviews with David Frost numerous times. Never forget that Nixon said "[W]ell, when the president does it, that means it is not illegal." Donald obviously believes the same thing.

    The only problem is that if Nixon were President today then there would be little to zero chance he would ever be impeached. Some Republicans actually had a conscience back then. Now they bend over backwards to cover up Trump's incompetence and possible illegal activity.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    All of this proves what I've said many times about our "antique dated" laws which are ridiculous and don't fit the times. In other civil countries all applicable laws also apply to the Prime Minister or President. Here it is asking for an dictatorship by a con man, as is the case now. Congratulations America, wake up and do some real "vetting" BEFORE the elections, as well get the "money" and "lobbying" as well "electoral colleges" out of elections. All of this is an self inflicted wound. Does this country ever learn not to give so much "power" to a President?
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Kenosha, WI
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    Dutch Wrote: All of this proves what I've said many times about our "antique dated" laws which are ridiculous and don't fit the times. In other civil countries all applicable laws also apply to the Prime Minister or President. Here it is asking for an dictatorship by a con man, as is the case now. Congratulations America, wake up and do some real "vetting" BEFORE the elections, as well get the "money" and "lobbying" as well "electoral colleges" out of elections. All of this is an self inflicted wound. Does this country ever learn not to give so much "power" to a President?
    Oh Dutch, lobbyists don't need to go to DC to pay off their buddies, they just phones to get the things done that they want to. If we were able to remove all special favors, special interests and lobbying, DC would look like a desert ghost town.
  • Center Left Democrat
    Democrat
    California
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    Alan Dershowitz is trying to be the center of attention. He puts himself into the fray in every controversial subject of the day which often times contradicts what he stands for and be a defender of. This defender of civil liberties has defended torture in the past so that tells you all you need to know about Alan. He's essentially making the case for absolute despotism in his latest defense of Trump. He's also a plagiarist.

    thenation.com/article/alan-dershowitz-p...

  • Independent
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    Dershowitz is looking for some media time, nothing more. He is entitled to an opinion as is any other human. unfortunately nowhere is it stated that the president can obstruct justice. His opinion is wrong.
  • Independent
    Washington
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    lonely bird Wrote: Dershowitz is looking for some media time, nothing more. He is entitled to an opinion as is any other human. unfortunately nowhere is it stated that the president can obstruct justice. His opinion is wrong.

    Indeed there is reasonable possiblity that trump will push this all the way to the Suprene Court. He wants that fight because he 100% believes he will win.

    Its very likely that every single time we hear trump say "There is no collusion" and "There is no Obstruction of justice", he is applying the same flawed logic as Dershowitz . But, trump is intentionally being misleading. He is letting the public assume he means that nothing ever happened in terms actions or words. He is not stating his full augment which is:

    "Constitutional Presidential powers, by defination, are immune from all crimes. If US congress does not like a a president uses his power, they can impeach, otherwise the president is immune to all crimes."

    Trump is gambling with extreme high stakes. He is playing a political game of Chicken by driving down the political freeway at 110mph in the wrong direction, betting everyone else will swerve off the road first, because they don't have the guts to impeach him. Everything he says or does has the under current of:

    "You all are fucking cowards, you don't have the balls to impeach me, so I am going to do 100% of want I want, including lying, breaking the law, screwing women as often as I want, make racist comments, everything else that comes to my mind.... You're a bunch of fucking little cunts"

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Kenosha, WI
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    It's looking like Trump really does have an axe to grind against our justice system, there's talk of him commuting or pardoning numerous people, one, the former gov of Illinois who tried to sell Obama's state senate seat, aka Blago. Does Trump think he's on the way out?
  • Independent
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    The president cannot be tried for obstructing justice without impeachment. No, he is not immune from the law. He simply must be impeached first. That is not a detail. It is crucial. The question is whether or not the Republican Party will do the civic duty should a case for violation of the law underpinning the need for impeachment be brought forward.
  • Independent
    Washington
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    lonely bird Wrote: The president cannot be tried for obstructing justice without impeachment. No, he is not immune from the law. He simply must be impeached first. That is not a detail. It is crucial. The question is whether or not the Republican Party will do the civic duty should a case for violation of the law underpinning the need for impeachment be brought forward.

    The mainstream Republican party wants to get rid of trump more than the democrats do, because they know that the party of trump is a death sentence not only for the Republican party, but for the nation. Trump is like a terrorist that has hijacked the Republican party and the WH.

    The ideal scenario for Republican party is that Democrats take just enough control of House and Senate during the mid-terms so that that democrats can force the impeachment of trump. During impeachment process, Republicans put up a public fake fight so it appears they are defending trump, but behind the scenes, Republicans work privately with Democrats to ensure trump is impeached. When trump gets impeached, Republican publicly blame the democrats, and Pence become president. Pence immediately pardon's trump. Pence keeps a hold on the trump's base, at least the evangelicals.... That is how the main stream Republicans want to play out, and the sooner the better because they hate trump as much, if not more, than Democrats. Democrats are reluctant to impeach trump for exactly these reasons, they don't want to be the bad guys. And trump loves to pit mainstream Republican against the Democratic Party; it create more gridlock and chaos, and the worse things gets, the more trump thrives. He is cancer, and cancer thrives the more it destroys.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Kenosha, WI
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    wwjd Wrote:
    lonely bird Wrote: The president cannot be tried for obstructing justice without impeachment. No, he is not immune from the law. He simply must be impeached first. That is not a detail. It is crucial. The question is whether or not the Republican Party will do the civic duty should a case for violation of the law underpinning the need for impeachment be brought forward.

    The mainstream Republican party wants to get rid of trump more than the democrats do, because they know that the party of trump is a death sentence not only for the Republican party, but for the nation. Trump is like a terrorist that has hijacked the Republican party and the WH.

    The ideal scenario for Republican party is that Democrats take just enough control of House and Senate during the mid-terms so that that democrats can force the impeachment of trump. During impeachment process, Republicans put up a public fake fight so it appears they are defending trump, but behind the scenes, Republicans work privately with Democrats to ensure trump is impeached. When trump gets impeached, Republican publicly blame the democrats, and Pence become president. Pence immediately pardon's trump. Pence keeps a hold on the trump's base, at least the evangelicals.... That is how the main stream Republicans want to play out, and the sooner the better because they hate trump as much, if not more, than Democrats. Democrats are reluctant to impeach trump for exactly these reasons, they don't want to be the bad guys. And trump loves to pit mainstream Republican against the Democratic Party; it create more gridlock and chaos, and the worse things gets, the more trump thrives. He is cancer, and cancer thrives the more it destroys.

    IMHO, Your first sentence isn't exactly true. We'd like to believe that republicans would like to get rid of Trump, but many are either backing him or they're staying quiet. Watch this trailer of Trump Takeover, by PBS, (link provided)

    youtube.com/watch?v=600lFk0kmds

    and go to PBS to watch the full documentary, and you'll be able to understand the republican situation. (link provided)

    pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/trumps-take...

  • Independent
    Washington
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    nytimes.com/2018/06/02/us/politics/trum...

    Complete Memo: nytimes.com/interactive/2018/06/02/us/p...

    The NYT is reporting that trump's legal team has sent a memo to Mueller's team presenting the same legal argument as Dershowitz, by definition, the president is immune from criminal behavior because he is president. They are arguing that the president, is in fact, above the law.

    The gist of trump's legal argument is that US President is GOD over everything and everyone in the USA, and GOD can not commit crimes upon himself. And as GOD, he can pardon anybody, including himself, which they suggest trump is willing to do to wipe out the entire investigation. No witnesses = no investigation.

    Although not stated in the memo, they are suggesting only recourse is the political action of impeachment. The implied argument is "If congress is not willing to impeach, it means they accept the actions of the president"

    ... which of course is total legal shit.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    wwjd Wrote:

    nytimes.com/2018/06/02/us/politics/trum...

    Complete Memo: nytimes.com/interactive/2018/06/02/us/p...

    The NYT is reporting that trump's legal team has sent a memo to Mueller's team presenting the same legal argument as Dershowitz, by definition, the president is immune from criminal behavior because he is president. They are arguing that the president, is in fact, above the law.

    The gist of trump's legal argument is that US President is GOD over everything and everyone in the USA, and GOD can not commit crimes upon himself. And as GOD, he can pardon anybody, including himself, which they suggest trump is willing to do to wipe out the entire investigation. No witnesses = no investigation.

    Although not stated in the memo, they are suggesting only recourse is the political action of impeachment. The implied argument is "If congress is not willing to impeach, it means they accept the actions of the president"

    ... which of course is total legal shit.

    But yeah, that is what you get if you only adhere to an antique document, which never accounted for that a con-man could be elected. Let's be honest in this "know it all" country; they just forgot to make laws which apply to everyone, including the President, which should be written black and white in any "base" law. I've written about such so many times that just doing the interpretation of an Constitution is the most stupid thing you can do. Especially for a function as President there should be solid laws as well strong restrictions on his/her powers, so you don't get situations as right now. A President should serve the people, not himself.