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Florida High School mass shooting

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    TJ Wrote: Eye rolls are protected by the 1st amendment. Enjoy your feeling of safety while you're armed.

    Did you mean 2nd amendment? I'm asking because I am not understanding your comment.

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    TJ Wrote: Eye rolls are protected by the 1st amendment. Enjoy your feeling of safety while you're armed.

    You're absolutely right, TJ. Just as firearms are protected by the 2nd.

    As for, "enjoy your feeling of safety while you're armed". I sense sarcasm in that statement, so I'll respond as such. I've never understood the "if you carry a firearm, concealed or not, you're insecure or looking for trouble" point of view. Seems very ignorant to me. Not that that's exactly what you said, but it seems to be in the same thread.

    Let me be absolutely clear:

    I do not carry for enjoyment.

    I do not carry to be the hero.

    I do not carry to be tough. Actually quite the opposite, as a ccw license comes with strict "stay out of all trouble" rules.

    I do not carry to tell/make known to others around me, ever.

    I DO carry to protect myself and/or family if the instance ever calls for it. Which again, let me be perfectly clear, I do not ever want to be a part of. I'm not sure where you're from TJ, I sincerely hope it's somewhere nice that has never seen a day of trouble. But it was not always nice for my family and I growing up in Dallas TX. One (out of many) stories is a long string of gang initiations about 10 years ago. They would pull up to you at a red light and bump your car, just so you'd get out. They'd then kill you just for credit. This was happening all over the DFW. It also happened to my cousin on the highway. When he got out of the car to check for damages, they robbed him and slit his throat. Having a firearm on him would have given him a much higher chance to save his life. There is absolutely no denying that.

    So where is the line for you, TJ? If this was happening in your town right now and you have the opportunity to protect your self and family by doing something that is 100% legal, would you? And remember, it's happening all around you. It's happened to some of your family already. Are you really telling me you would have to be insecure to carry a firearm with all of this happening around you? What would you do? Sarcastic one-liners or saying people shouldn't have guns won't help your situation at all.

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    It's now being reported that there were four armed policeman at the school (and not just the one) and none of them entered the school to confront the shooter. Why? We don't know. But I would guess that the shooter's AR-15 was making a hell of a lot of noise, and it probably put the fear into anyone including police who would enter into the school during the mayhem.

    I don't care how much training you have had, people are only human. They react differently in sudden stressful situations, much like the New York policeman who fired at a perp and hit two bystanders instead. You can be the best marksman on the force in target practice, but you never know how the person will perform under fire. I'll repeat what I extracted from an article earlier in this thread. Your Brain in a Shootout: Guns, Fear and Flawed Instincts

    "The brain stem sends out signals that cause blood vessels to constrict and hormones to surge. Studies have shown that eyesight becomes narrower (literally tunnel vision) under such conditions. People who have been in gunfights describe hearing very little and perceive time slowing down. Amid this chaos, as police officers have to make difficult, split-second decisions, humans can lose motor skills as the body reverts to basic fight or flight instincts."

    Now some of those teachers who have never shot or carried a gun before might just act very heroically out of unknown survival instincts inherited from their ancestors. They are cool under pressure. But we also know that trained military people can also cower in fear, freezing or make bad mistakes when confronted with chaos -- like the four policemen at the Parkland high school.

    I'm not saying that the policemen cowered in fear, but rather that in the chaos of the moment they lost all sense of what they were supposed to do. Rushing into the school to confront an unknown shooter could subconsciously in their mind have been rushing to their death. Maybe? Or is it the SWAT training to surround and wait?

    I maintain that arming teachers is a very bad idea. And I'm not so sure how well all those guards will react in the heat of the moment either. They may have on a uniform and carry a gun, but that doesn't change what they are inside...only human. As the author says, humans can lose motor skills as the body reverts to basic fight or flight instincts.

    In this case the "good guys with a gun" chose "flight" or something like it.

    My opinion...

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    Dockadams Wrote:
    Oh paaaaleeese, none of these ccw or open carry asswipes are never, ever, in the right place at the right time. Furthermore, please show me and this forum some statistics that PROVE that good people with guns stop bad guys or bad people with guns. I'll give you a clue, there aren't any, as in, there aren't any of those situations. If there is or if there are, it's only once or a few a year. Please show some stats that prove more guns would be the answer to gun problems. There ain't none of those either, except a higher rate of self inflicted homicides and suicides, and domestic argument shootings. The answer is not more guns, and it most certainly is not having armed people in schools, malls, and stores.

    I used to frequent a local laundry to wash my clothes, the proprietor's buddy was in the business establishment on a daily basis, he is a CCW person, it is evident by the large bulge under his t shirt. I approached him once and asked him why he carries a firearm, his answer was simplistic, as most people who carry openly or concealed, it was "because I can". What a ridiculous reason for wanting to carry a gun.

    There are quite a few of these per year though:

    detroit.cbslocal.com/2013/12/27/man-gra...

    "Authorities say a Livingston County man accidentally shot himself while shopping at a home improvement store with the gun he was legally carrying.

    The incident happened around 6 p.m. Thursday at the Home Depot in Brighton, near I-96 and Grand River Avenue.

    Police say the 32-year-old Green Oak Township man, who was not named, was apparently reaching into his pocket for his wallet when he inadvertently grabbed his pistol and a shot fired, striking him in the buttocks."

    Please try to keep the discussion respectful. Blanketing an entire group of people, including myself as a ccw, as "asswipes" looks childish and doesn't help the conversation at all.

    You are all over the place with your arguments so I'll try to respond to each one. "PROVE that good people with guns stop bad guys or bad people with guns." To me, I can only help but to point directly at the police and military. They do this every single day. That's not a secret or a statistic that I need to provide.

    Now, maybe you meant to prove that ccw's and/or open carriers stop bad guys. As for open carriers, I told you in my last response, "Who are you to say that he/she hasn't "stopped eeeevil" before? Do you know for sure that that person wasn't in the right place at the right time when an attacker called it off because they saw someone was armed? It's a small chance, but it's still a chance. You or I couldn't possibly know that."

    As for concealed carriers, I have first hand experience with having to pull my firearm only once. It may or may not have exactly saved my life, but was able to stop the situation and nobody got hurt, so I call that a win. But lets disregard my own and ALL of the other personal stories like mine because, you know, I guess they don't count?? I'm not sure how you came up with your, "there aren't good people who carry firearms that stop bad people." It's actually a little mind blowing to me that you think that's true. But for the sake of your argument:

    2016: Concealed carrier stops mass shooting. Right place at the right time? I just can't see how that is possible. You specifically said that doesn't happen.

    2016: Note that the man that took down the "bad guy" actually trains concealed carriers for this exact situation. But you're right, he's just an "asswipe". You absolutely know better than him and the people he saved.

    2017: Not a concealed carrier, just had a firearm at the right time. But again, how could that possibly be? You said it never happens?

    2018: Concealed carrier saves police officer.

    2017: Concealed carrier stops robbery and shooter at mall.

    2017: Conealed carrier shoots robber aiming weapon at his family.

    I could post a ton of those, but I honestly don't think you care about them. You seem to think of normal occurrences as just fantasy. And yes, they are normal occurrences in many areas. It just may not be normal right where you live. So how about research straight from the Crime Prevention Research Center regarding this exact topic? Will that help? Just straight up, non-biased research. Maybe that will shed some light.

    Concealed Carry Permit Holders Across the United States

    Straight from that report: Bullet point #7 of the Summary- Between 2007 and 2014, murder rates have fallen from 5.6 to 4.2 (preliminary estimates) per 100,000. This represents a 25% drop in the murder rate at the same time that the percentage of the adult population with permits soared by 178%. Overall violent crime also fell by 25 percent over that period of time.

    Once again, I am confused. You said there would be, "higher rate of self inflicted homicides and suicides, and domestic argument shootings." But according the the stats, which you said "there ain't none", that's not true. So do these stories and actual research/stats put your absolutely for sure logic into question?

    And now on to you responding to things that I didn't even say. I never said more guns = better. Never. In fact, just a few pages back I said that certain guns should be banned completely. I also said there should be even stricter gun laws for gun owners, ccw's, carriers, etc. I never said more guns is better. That is your opinion taking over in your response. Not every gun owner wants more guns. That is the naive part. Most gun owners want certain firearms banned, stricter gun laws, etc, just like non-gun owners.

    There you go. I answered all of your questions and gave you what you asked for, which you said doesn't exist. Now please do me the favor of answering my one question to you that I actually put in bold: What would you do if you were in this exact situation? Locked down in a classroom/gas station/grocery store/whatever, when a gunman came in and was slowly picking people off. Now say a genie appeared and offered you a firearm. Would you accept the firearm or not? This is obviously hypothetical, but I think it's a very fair question. Seems like you are afraid to even think of that scenario simply because you have an opinion. This is a normal occurrence for a lot of people. Not everything is as easy as just having an opinion as simple as "those people are asswipes."

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    In response to Columbine, thousands upon thousands of SROs were put in schools and none has stopped a school shooting. None.

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    Schmidt Wrote:

    I'm not saying that the policemen cowered in fear, but rather that in the chaos of the moment they lost all sense of what they were supposed to do. Rushing into the school to confront an unknown shooter could subconsciously in their mind have been rushing to their death. Maybe? Or is it the SWAT training to surround and wait?

    In time how it was handled will become public information. At this time I am going to give the responding officers the benefit of assuming they were handling it as trained and\or as ordered. And it is possible that during specific emergency they were uncertain as what to do without direct orders from the commander in charge.

    I thought it was extreme wrong for the president of US to condemn the responding officers based on rumors that they waited outside afraid they would be shot.... And we know trump never apologizes and never backs down. "I was just reporting what I heard on the news, and the news was saying they were cowards who wanted stay outside where it was safe."

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    Carlitos Wrote:

    In response to Columbine, thousands upon thousands of SROs were put in schools and none has stopped a school shooting. None.

    You were pretty much faultless logically until now. You have no idea how many school shootings were stopped.
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    Schmidt Wrote:

    It's now being reported that there were four armed policeman at the school (and not just the one) and none of them entered the school to confront the shooter. Why? We don't know. But I would guess that the shooter's AR-15 was making a hell of a lot of noise, and it probably put the fear into anyone including police who would enter into the school during the mayhem.

    I don't care how much training you have had, people are only human. They react differently in sudden stressful situations, much like the New York policeman who fired at a perp and hit two bystanders instead. You can be the best marksman on the force in target practice, but you never know how the person will perform under fire. I'll repeat what I extracted from an article earlier in this thread. Your Brain in a Shootout: Guns, Fear and Flawed Instincts

    "The brain stem sends out signals that cause blood vessels to constrict and hormones to surge. Studies have shown that eyesight becomes narrower (literally tunnel vision) under such conditions. People who have been in gunfights describe hearing very little and perceive time slowing down. Amid this chaos, as police officers have to make difficult, split-second decisions, humans can lose motor skills as the body reverts to basic fight or flight instincts."

    Now some of those teachers who have never shot or carried a gun before might just act very heroically out of unknown survival instincts inherited from their ancestors. They are cool under pressure. But we also know that trained military people can also cower in fear, freezing or make bad mistakes when confronted with chaos -- like the four policemen at the Parkland high school.

    I'm not saying that the policemen cowered in fear, but rather that in the chaos of the moment they lost all sense of what they were supposed to do. Rushing into the school to confront an unknown shooter could subconsciously in their mind have been rushing to their death. Maybe? Or is it the SWAT training to surround and wait?

    I maintain that arming teachers is a very bad idea. And I'm not so sure how well all those guards will react in the heat of the moment either. They may have on a uniform and carry a gun, but that doesn't change what they are inside...only human. As the author says, humans can lose motor skills as the body reverts to basic fight or flight instincts.

    In this case the "good guys with a gun" chose "flight" or something like it.

    My opinion...

    Totally agree except. If a teacher wanted to have a gun for defense in their home room then they should have a gun and training with absolutely no obligation to use it.

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    Intervention and interception. Limited access through armed attendant monitored metal detectors or state of the art weapons detection systems.
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    Schmidt Wrote:

    I maintain that arming teachers is a very bad idea. And I'm not so sure how well all those guards will react in the heat of the moment either. They may have on a uniform and carry a gun, but that doesn't change what they are inside...only human. As the author says, humans can lose motor skills as the body reverts to basic fight or flight instincts.

    In this case the "good guys with a gun" chose "flight" or something like it.

    My opinion...

    Agreed... far too many more things will just go wrong expecting teacher to instantly shift from being teachers to police officers. {insert 10+ pages of reasons why it is an extremely bad idea}

    Staying within realistic boundaries that current exist politically, arming teachers is not going to happen at the national level as a legal mandate. It might happen in a few gun happy states. In the state where I live, it will NEVER happen.

    Realistically, the whole topic of "teachers packing guns" will either fade away or become another deadlock wedge issue between the left and right; just add it to the list of along with Abortion, gay marriage, prayer in schools, 2nd amendment,etc.

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    I think teachers with guns is a very bad idea. Far too many gun deaths and injuries happen to friends or family by accident.

    An 80 minutes training class sounds great and the framed certificate looks swell. In the catastrophic event of a mass shooting, nobody knows if 94% of the training info is recalled or 10%. Mike Tyson said everyone has a plan until the get punched in the face.

    Clay in the worst situations a gun may save your or my life. Hopefully it never happens to either of us. It's the 99.9999999999999999 % of the rest of life where I have a problem. You should move to a different place if there's greater than a 2% chance of your life being threatened on any given day. I believe your mind should be your go to weapon. A tool for killing may save you one day. It may land you in court after bad judgment. Hopefully it's just additional weight to carry around.

    --------

    Today several companies stated they were no longer doing business with the NRA. Trending negatively I am sure.

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    Chet, none of these mass shootings at schools has ever been stopped by a kill shot by police or security. The killers either commit suicide or they are apprehended.

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    I've referenced this article twice in this thread:

    Time: Your Brain in a Shootout: Guns, Fear and Flawed Instincts

    Instead of my short extracts, I recommend everyone read it in it's entirety especially the section describing the shooting in a hallway. It's a 2013 article that could have been written yesterday.

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    Another article on a Minnesota school shooting to contemplate...

    Third-grader pulls trigger on Maplewood cop’s gun, firing a shot

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    So, to pull or show a gun stopped your bad situation, marvelous, what? did someone threaten to beat your ass? Oh, that's a good reason to pull a gun on someone. Isn't that what happened with Zimmerman in Florida, a stand your ground thing? poor, just poor.

    Stats have ceased to exist since around 2010 or maybe before that, I think PEW research stopped doing it because congress cut funding for it.

    Only a person who needs a gun carries a gun.

    This LA Times article pretty much lays it out, good guys w/guns vs bad guys w/guns,

    latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-gu...

    "Oddly, given these combined statistics, nearly half of gun owners say they keep weapons because it makes them feel safer, a proportion that has increased dramatically since 1999 even though violent crime has been in a steady decline."

    No, we do not need guns in classrooms. We do not need more people carrying guns. Both are very bad ideas.