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This site Islamqa.com looks really interesting. It's all the islamic fatwas. Wiki: A fatwā in the Islamic faith is a nonbinding but authoritative legal opinion or learned interpretation that the Sheikhul Islam, a qualified jurist or mufti, can give on issues pertaining to the Islamic law. The person who issues a fatwā is called, in that respect, a mufti If you're ever curious about how a Muslim is supposed to react to particular situations, this is a great tool to understand the tenets therein. The site is in Arabic but google translates it well. Then just enter in question. that's all. I decided to poke around and there's a fountain of information there. I tried "western music" to see what results came back. Here was the response to someone who couldn't give up classical music: 1 – With regard to music: It is forbidden and is not permissible to play musical instruments or listen to songs and tunes. The majority of scholars say that it is haraam, including the four imams of fiqh: Abu Haneefah, Maalik, al-Shaafa’i and Ahmad (may Allaah have mercy on them all). The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Among my ummah there will be people who will regard as permissible adultery, silk, alcohol and musical instruments.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (5590). See also: al-Silsilah al-Saheehah by al-Albaani (91). It goes on for quite a length after that... islamqa.info/en/50687 Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: This hadeeth indicates that musical instruments are haraam; this includes all types of instruments. Majmoo’ al-Fataawa (11/535). But then I typed the word "murder" and I'm a bit concerned to what I found. A man writes in and admits to murder. This was the question: "I took part in a murder, but I was not caught for this crime. I want to expiate for my sin. Will Allaah accept my repentance without me having to hand myself in to the police?" And here was the response: Murder (killing a person deliberately), if the victim is a believer, is one of the greatest of major sins, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell to abide therein; and the Wrath and the Curse of Allaah are upon him, and a great punishment is prepared for him” [al-Nisaa’ 493] And it was narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “A man will continue to be sound in his religion so long as he does not shed blood which it is forbidden to shed.” If you killed a believer deliberately, then there are three rights which are connected to that: the rights of Allaah, the rights of the victim and the rights of the victim’s next of kin. With regard to the rights of Allaah: if you repent sincerely to your Lord, then Allaah will accept your repentance, because He says (interpretation of the meaning): “Say: “O ‘Ibaadi (My slaves) who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of Allaah, verily, Allaah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful” [al-Zumar 39:53] With regard to the rights of the victim, he is not alive so you cannot put things right with him. The matter has to wait until the Day of Resurrection, i.e., the settling of scores with you on behalf of the victim will take place on the Day of Resurrection. But I hope that if your repentance is correct and is accepted by Allaah, then Allaah will compensate the victim with what He wills of His bounty until he is satisfied, and you will be reprieved. With regard to the rights of the victim’s next of kin, which is the third right, you cannot be absolved of this until you hand yourself over to them. Therefore you have to hand yourself over to the victim’s next of kin, and tell them that you are the one who killed him, then they have the choice. If they want to they can exact vengeance upon you, if the conditions of qasaas are met; or if they want to they may take the diyah (blood money) from you; or if they want to they can forgive you. Not anywhere in there does he mention non-believer. The entire response was predicated on murdering a "believer" so therefore, killing a non-believer wouldn't be murder. Despite the fact that murder is murder and all he needs to do is pay off the family is disconcerting. What say you?
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The problem with ancient texts like the Qur'an, Torah and Bible is that they were written by humans at different times and therefore have many, many contradictions. The Qur'an basically is really two books, the Mecca Qur'an and the Medina Qur'an, with two opposing meanings...one that preaches peace and the other that is more warlike. You can cherry pick verses from each that totally contradict each other. Beyond the Cusp: Which Quran, Mecca or Medina?' The same thing can be said for the Bible. I can cheery pick worse verses than anything you have highlighted above when it comes to slavery, concubines, rape, murder, lying (Trump would never last), adultery, blasphemy and women. When I show these to Christians they can show me alternative verses that contradict those. Okay...believe what you want to believe, but don't tell me it is "God's word". Most parts of Christianity have largely "modernized" but it wasn't that long ago that women were labeled as witches and were persecuted. Islam as practiced in the USA and Europe also has largely modernized, but there are segments that remain fundamentalist in Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries as well as Iran. I haven't researched the particular verses that you have highlighted above, but I would suggest that they are probably not common practice amongst western Muslims. Look at how they conduct their lives in the USA rather than cherry picking things to cast them in a negative light.
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RedPillChoke Wrote: What say you?
You really do seem to have a very narrow mind and focus exclusively on only the negative aspects of Islam. As Schmidt more eloquently pointed out - all religions live in a contradictory universe. Point me to a verse or scripture that calls for war or killing non-believers and I'll point you to one that preaches love, peace, and compassion. All religious books are filled with contradictions, so why do you and the religious right only focus on Islam? If you ask me, I think the religious right is far more of a threat to our country than fundamentalist Muslims ever will be. Fundamentalist Muslims don't hold positions of power throughout our Federal government. Fundamentalist Muslims aren't banning scientists at the CDC from using words like “fetus, entitlement, diversity, transgender, vulnerable, evidence-based and science-based” in official government documents. And fundamentalist Muslims didn't send over 100,000 troops to wage a "crusade" (George W's words, not mine) in the Middle-East. I encourage you to look in the mirror before accusing an entire religion of being terrorists.
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I know about the Quran, I've read it chronologically. The standard version is ordered from longest chapter to the shortest and any 'context' is immediately lost no matter what chapter you start with. Mecca version is blended in with the Medina version and one verse is followed by something Muhammad said 10 years later. It's a disaster from the start with no meaning. That's why you must read it in order to get any context at all. But what I posted above aren't Quranic verses. They're fatwas taken from the hadith. Words and stories from those who knew Muhammad and lived along side him. Islamqa.com are rulings, not cherry picking. For example, bathroom etiquette. Remember, Islam is a totalitarian political system, you can't even go to the bathroom without following a copious amount of rules. IE: Don't touch your junk with your right hand because Muhammad was right handed and ate his food with his right hand. IE: Men must squat to piss. IE: you must face a certain direction when relieving yourself. Stuff like this. Rules, and lots of them. So many rules in fact, Muslims need to ask what do in almost every situation imaginable. Find me something similar in Christianity? I'm willing to bet you'll be hard pressed to do so. Christianity modernized after the new testament. That was quite a long time ago. Many Muslim apologists like to refer to the old testament as a rebutle to the Quran but neglect to mention the comparison is like apples to oranges. What is important to know is Islam has not reformed thus it is also important to understand their mind set. Yes, western Muslims don't behave like their M.E counter parts but what do they believe? What do they think? Further to expound on my point, a ruling regarding living in the west. Well, "advice". Number 5 is telling: 5- It is not permissible for you to look for ward to dilute the rulings of Islam and to make compromises in order to please the west and its people. Rather you should feel proud of your religion and adhere to the guidance of your Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), no matter who disagrees with you. You see how the followers of deviant ideas and perversions feel proud of their principles and ideas and proclaim them openly with no embarrassment. The followers of truth have more right to do that. islamqa.info/en/22309 So is number 6: 6- Be united in adhering to the truth and in defending the truth; do not become divided and lose your strength, thus enabling your enemy to defeat you. And do not show your differences openly in front of the kuffaar. Advise one another in private and not in plain view of others. (afterthought) The west has become divided and the word "kuffaar" or kafir is a derogatory term for unbelievers just so you know. Western Muslims and those in the ME are on opposite sides of Islam. Whilst they conduct their lives in our civilization diluting the tenets therein, they are considered apostates or hypocrites by the orthodox and fundamental standards. But the point I think you've missed is the subject of murder. Killing a non-believer or kafir isn't considered murder. Instead, what you will hear is "Allah condemns the killing of all innocents" Then a "cherry picked' verse 5:30 is used to validate this claim. But the devil is in the details. Or rather, excluded from the wording. "innocent". Only Muslims are "innocent". The real answer is, it's only murder if you kill another Muslim.
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jaredsxtn Wrote:RedPillChoke Wrote: What say you?
You really do seem to have a very narrow mind and focus exclusively on only the negative aspects of Islam. As Schmidt more eloquently pointed out - all religions live in a contradictory universe. Point me to a verse or scripture that calls for war or killing non-believers and I'll point you to one that preaches love, peace, and compassion. All religious books are filled with contradictions, so why do you and the religious right only focus on Islam? If you ask me, I think the religious right is far more of a threat to our country than fundamentalist Muslims ever will be. Fundamentalist Muslims don't hold positions of power throughout our Federal government. Fundamentalist Muslims aren't banning scientists at the CDC from using words like “fetus, entitlement, diversity, transgender, vulnerable, evidence-based and science-based” in official government documents. And fundamentalist Muslims didn't send over 100,000 troops to wage a "crusade" (George W's words, not mine) in the Middle-East.
I encourage you to look in the mirror before accusing an entire religion of being terrorists.
I've read the Quran, have you? Please don't tell me I have a narrow view of Islam when I actually have been studying it for a couple of years. I do a tremendous amount of reading on the subject and I am confident I know more about it than you. What's myopic is you coming to me to say (round about words) you know more about Islam than me. Do you really? Would you like to debate? Case in point. You said to point you to a verse that calls for killing of non-believers and you will be able to provide one of peace and love. I can oblige you. Sura 17:33 And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden, except by right. And whoever is killed unjustly - We have given his heir authority, but let him not exceed limits in [the matter of] taking life. Indeed, he has been supported [by the law].
Whom Allah has forbidden to kill? What this verse is, is permission to kill non-believers. It explicitly states "except by right". Now, I already know you are not well versed on Islam so "by right" may seem confusing to you. I'll help clarify. By right means, adulterers, homosexuals, hypocrites, apostates, and those who spread corruption in the land. Corruption means, attempting to lure Muslims away from Islam or tell truths about Islam. Of course, Muslims will say those truths are lies, thus condemning the act as corruption. Sura 5:33 Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment
Yes, all religious books are filled with contradictions. This is a strawman argument anyway. It's not that religious books have contradictions, it's what the followers choose to believe. I'm sure we both agree. A western Muslim may not wake every morning wanting to kill a kafir, but somewhere another Muslim is. I know your argument for this statement but I'll refrain from speaking for you. I already have an answer. I think the religious right is far more of a threat to our country than fundamentalist Muslims ever will be
You do realize, Western nations were founded on 'Fundamental Christianity" right? I'm being facetious but let me know when you need to install road barriers to prevent christians from driving trucks into crowds. Fundamentalist Muslims aren't banning scientists at the CDC... fundamentalist Muslims didn't send over 100,000 troops to wage a "crusade" (George W's words, not mine) in the Middle-East.
Another straw man argument. Reverse the players and see what chaos ensues. Are you telling me if the United States was a Muslim majority, Muslims wouldn't ban scientists or wage war? For the record, I'm not Christian nor an advocate of any organized religion. BTW, GWB can not "wage a crusade". Only the Pope can, that I am aware of. But if you want to go down that rabbit hole you would have to believe 19 islamic hijackers took down those towers. It's going to get wildly off-topic. And lastly, I encourage you to look in the mirror before accusing an entire religion of being terrorists.
Where in the world did I say that? And are you suggesting I'm a terrorist by referencing a mirror? What reflection am I supposed to be seeing?
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RedPillChoke Wrote: Christianity modernized after the new testament. That was quite a long time ago. Huh? The New Testament is Christianity. Christians simply copy and pasted the first part of their good book. Also, the books compromising the New Testament were composed in the first and early second centuries AD. That was a long time ago, but Christianity didn't begin modernizing until the 17th and 18th Centuries AD. Your definition of "quite a long time ago" seems to be just a little off... And, just like certain members of the Islamic faith, it hasn't modernized throughout. There are plenty of hate groups that hide behind the cloak of being "true" Christians who are simply following the word of God to this day. Slavery in the United States was justified by claiming Biblical permission, as was Jim Crow as recently as the 1960's. The KKK, which continues to have hundreds of thousands of current members to this day, also uses the Bible to explain away their hate. Millions of so called Christians continue to support the death penalty and believe the poor should fend for themselves. They also worship the money changers, which is directly against the teachings of their supposed savior. RedPillChoke Wrote: Many Muslim apologists like to refer to the old testament as a rebutle to the Quran but neglect to mention the comparison is like apples to oranges. What is important to know is Islam has not reformed thus it is also important to understand their mind set. Yes, western Muslims don't behave like their M.E counter parts but what do they believe? What do they think?
I'm an atheist and think the world would be so much better if people stopped fighting wars over imaginary figures in the sky. I also accept that I'm in the minority when it comes to that, so I'm an equal opportunity criticizer and can't stand it when one religion is painted with a broad brush, but other religions are given a free pass. That just doesn't make sense to me. Would you call waging a "crusade" in Iraq proof that Christianity has reformed? Would you call the tens of millions of Christians who believe to this day that there will be a battle of Armageddon in Tel Megiddo pitting Jesus Christ against the "Kings of the Earth" reformed? What about the tens of millions of Christians who believe the earth is 4,000 years old? Why aren't you putting them under a microscope and questioning what they believe? Why are you putting them under a microscope and questioning what they think? That's why Islamaphobes irritate me. They put the blinders on whenever their religion is put under a microscope and write off anything that puts their religion in a negative light, but are more than happy to proclaim that a religion that over a billion humans follow are terrorists who want to take over the world.
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Roughly 30% of the American population reads the Bible literally, which makes no sense at all. As Schmidt points out, there are far too many people who "cherry pick" the Bible to find verses that suit their needs. If you have any doubts at all, that the Bible is contradictory, I would invite you to take the Bible quiz contained in the link below: http://tohell-andback.blogspot.com/2010/09/bible-told-me-so.html Remember, this is an open book quiz. I have also read the Koran, and wrote a lengthy book report on it, which is far too long for this site. In brief, though, it reads a lot like the Old Testament, but is roughly the same length as the New Testament. Parts of it are virtually identical to come of the verses in the Bible.
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Huh? The New Testament is Christianity. Christians simply copy and pasted the first part of their good book
That's what I meant. My bad And, just like certain members of the Islamic faith, it hasn't modernized throughout. There are plenty of hate groups that hide behind the cloak of being "true" Christians who are simply following the word of God to this day. Slavery in the United States was justified by claiming Biblical permission, as was Jim Crow as recently as the 1960's. The KKK, which continues to have hundreds of thousands of current members to this day, also uses the Bible to explain away their hate.
The KKK can't be compared to 14 centuries of Islamic barbarism. And 100's of thousands is extremely exaggerated. It's more like 5000-8000 plus they've been in decline for decades to the point of being negligible. infomory.com/numbers/number-of-kkk-memb... Speaking of slavery, why don't you acknowledge the Islamic slavery that still exists today? Ironically, Muhammad Ali converted in the 60's whilst Saudi Arabia still had blacks in chains. Why are you still living in the past anyway? All arguments from the left are predicated on events that are no longer happening. Meanwhile, Islamic slavery is a huge deal. Dwarfed the Atlantic slave trade by 1000 years and a 100 million people. It's still happening and never stopped. Not to mention, Christianity has acknowledged its role but Islam has not. Millions of so called Christians continue to support the death penalty
And a Billion of Muslims do too. Not an argument I also accept that I'm in the minority when it comes to that, so I'm an equal opportunity criticizer and can't stand it when one religion is painted with a broad brush, but other religions are given a free pass. That just doesn't make sense to me.
Are you kidding? Christians have been ridiculed and criticized since the beginning. They're are actually the MOST persecuted religion of them all. I've done my part criticizing them years ago and shifted focus once I read about Islam. Liberals have no problem condemning Christianity, they always bring it up in a debate as a counter. You call yourself "equal" but have a problem when criticizing the Islamic dogma. Otherwise, you wouldn't be compelled to respond to this thread. That's why Islamaphobes irritate me. They put the blinders on whenever their religion is put under a microscope and write off anything that puts their religion in a negative light, but are more than happy to proclaim that a religion that over a billion humans follow are terrorists who want to take over the world.
If you can use a subjective word like 'islamaphobe", then by the same logic, you are a "christianaphobe". Let's get something straight, I'm not defending Christianity but there is clearly a gap of the 'meeting of the minds' when discussing Islam. You seem to think people (like me) trying to ring the alarm that all Muslims are bad people or 'terrorists'. The left is talking about people and the right is talking about ideologies. That's why there's a gap in logic when debating. There's a philosophical angle the right posits and you need to understand this difference. Now let me ask you a question. Were all the Germans during 1930 Nazi Germany bad people?
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that guy in AZ Wrote:Roughly 30% of the American population reads the Bible literally, which makes no sense at all. As Schmidt points out, there are far too many people who "cherry pick" the Bible to find verses that suit their needs. If you have any doubts at all, that the Bible is contradictory, I would invite you to take the Bible quiz contained in the link below: http://tohell-andback.blogspot.com/2010/09/bible-told-me-so.html Remember, this is an open book quiz. I have also read the Koran, and wrote a lengthy book report on it, which is far too long for this site. In brief, though, it reads a lot like the Old Testament, but is roughly the same length as the New Testament. Parts of it are virtually identical to come of the verses in the Bible. That's because Muhammad stole various stories from all religions at the time. The story of Moses is told 39 times for crying out loud. Tough to get through. But did you read it in order? It's nonsensical otherwise. This is all about abrogation to cover up the inconsistencies and when Muhammad couldn't remember what he had previously said. And of course i have no doubt the bible is contradictory. That isn't the premise of the OP. The premise is what Muslims are instructed to think and how it cannot be reconciled with Western values.
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RedPillChoke Wrote:Jaredsxtn, I hope you come back this debate. You haven't really responded yet to my points. However, I urge you to read this Huffpost article huffingtonpost.com/kelly-james-clark/ch... My problem with the attached blog post and your argument in general is it cherry picks what to be outraged about. It is true that Christians are persecuted in a (very) select few countries, but it is also true that Muslims are persecuted in just as many, if not more. That selective outrage is what frustrates me. The blog post conveniently ignored the elephant in the room - the Balfour Declaration and the subsequent dissolution of the British Mandate for Palestine. The newly created state of Israel proceeded to expel over 700,000 Palestinians from their homes with the expressed blessing from major Western (and overwhelmingly Christian) powers, including the United States government headed by President Harry Truman. What this blog post also conveniently glosses over is why so many Christians left Iraq after 2003. Christians in Iraq were living in relative tranquility before the United States invaded them, but then President of the United States proclaimed he was waging a crusade. Is it any surprise that Christians in Iraq suddenly found out that they were now the perceived enemy? That's all I'm saying. All of us can find blog articles backing up our preconceived beliefs, but it's imperative to think outside the box on something as complex as this topic. Generalizing a billion people is just wrong. You don't accuse all Christians of being terrorists whenever a right-wing Christian bombs an abortion clinic. I encourage you to do the same with Muslims.
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