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Facts Matter, Especially In the Donald Era

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  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    The single greatest thing that I worry about in the Donald era is Democrats succumbing to the tactics of the right and falling prey to believing what we want to believe at the expense of the truth. It's very easy to believe that our thoughts are the truth and something we read is factual, but it's imperative for us to dig deeper and figure out if what we read is accurate or if it is simply reinforcing what we already believe regardless if it is factually correct.

    I worry that too many Democrats are starting to believe conspiracy theories over fact and that is not a good thing. We all have our deeply held beliefs, but facts matter now more than ever. Conspiracy theories are just that - conspiracy theories. They aren't based on facts, but rather what we feel.

    I implore left leaning people to not fall prey to the tactics of the right and actually do some research before forming an opinion. I know it's not the sexiest thing to do, especially since I am an atheist, but I encourage you to follow what John wrote in the New Testament and realize that "[t]he truth will set you free."

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    What in particular are you worried about ? I believe that the right believes they are the chosen people and act accordingly. But I can't think of any conspiracy theories.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Most of the present things are an creation of Bannon; he is the Rasputin in the White House. The thing is the stupid uneducated Americans and childish President fall for all of this; they have no idea on how dangerous this guy has become. But yeah, shortly I will be out of here and hopefully are no longer bothered by all of the repeat of an Hitler movement on this island.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Chet Ruminski Wrote: What in particular are you worried about ? I believe that the right believes they are the chosen people and act accordingly. But I can't think of any conspiracy theories.

    To be honest, I'm worried about people like you. And Dutch. And others who constantly seem to convince themselves that their personal beliefs supersede everyone else.

    We live in a complicated country of over 300 million people. America is not a small European country of one million citizens; it's a country of over 300 million people that has a complex Constitution.

    Things aren't as simple as convincing ourselves that everything would be awesome if we only had a President who gave everyone a unionized job, $3,000 a month, and providing the best housing to boot!

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Chet Ruminski Wrote: What in particular are you worried about ? I believe that the right believes they are the chosen people and act accordingly. But I can't think of any conspiracy theories.

    To be honest, I'm worried about people like you. And Dutch. And others who constantly seem to convince themselves that their personal beliefs supersede everyone else.

    We live in a complicated country of over 300 million people. America is not a small European country of one million citizens; it's a country of over 300 million people that has a complex Constitution.

    Things aren't as simple as convincing ourselves that everything would be awesome if we only had a President who gave everyone a unionized job, $3,000 a month, and providing the best housing to boot!

    Yes they are. But if you would try to understand how I want that done you might agree. Give incentives of any and every kind imaginable to jobs producing investing. Penalize investments that stagnate and remove money from the economy. In that way the country will prosper and everything will be rosy. Full employment with living wage jobs. Remember, the main and only action of my plan is to use the tax code to produce jobs through investing. I have said that if the country is prosperous throughout the entire income scale everything will fall into place.The lower class/income people are generous to a fault. More generous than any other group. They will give money for clean air, water, animals and vegetation more than any other group. Even with little or no money they donate to charities at a percentage greater than any other group and percentage wise shame Bill Gates. Then unions won't be needed because entrepreneurs will be seeking labor. Try and understand that the stock market and Wall Street left to their own devices have no interest in a goods and services economy. Wall Street is only interested in making as much as possible with the least amount of work. Penalize that lazy thinking with taxes and reward jobs producing investmenting and life will be great. The country is made of people and given their choice they will chose prosperity. Let the country benefit everybody. You don't have to give anybody anything. Let them work for what they want, including Wall Street and all financial businesses. Work for money.Opportunity and fair dealings are all that is needed.
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    While it is okay to think idealistically of what a utopian society will look like if only everyone thought and acted the same way, dealing with the reality of the immense diversity of thought (differing worldviews) in this country and the world is considerably more difficult.

    Jill Stein is one who I hold up as a person on the left who has lost all touch with reality...she's just one of many on the extreme left. She has many polar opposites on the right who also cannot handle reality. In between we have some 300 million Americans whose individual worldviews fall somewhere along the continuum between these extremes. Their worldviews are a product of genetic make-up and life's experiences. Their brains are all wired differently but in many respects share the same goals in life.

    Accepting that we are different is a hard hurdle to overcome. We want to convert "the other" into our way of thinking rather than listening and seeking a common ground. If we can't convert them, we demonize them.

    We put people into buckets and stereotype them as conservative or liberal or Republican or Democrat or perhaps something even more emotionally charged...the "other's" religious beliefs. When we accept those labels upon ourselves, then tribal forces take over and we do not have to think critically about individual issues that may not affect us personally.

    In that political environment compromise is extremely difficult. Governing is hard work as President Obama would say. There are no quick fixes to the imperfections in our society. We just have to keep working them by participating in our great democracy. Change has come somewhat slow at times, but it has never been easy.

    Our democracy flourishes when people are fully engaged and thinking critically. When we do not educate ourselves on the issues and how they affect all Americans; when we become intolerant of the other and resort to demonization; when we become intransigent in our beliefs; and when we take our great democracy for granted, then we are ripe to be led by a demagogue to take us to the "promised land", the right's version of utopia which is the exact opposite of the left's utopia.

    That's the reality of our political landscape.

    I agree with Jared.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    No Schmidt; look at the history of this country, then you know enough. Things here have grown apart. Just look at the difference between W. Virginia, Alabama etc. versus California. There is an huge difference. Therefore antique laws don't work anymore, like an "electoral college" etc. This country is struggling to get ahead because it is not "uniform" and not "united". The election in Montana shows clearly how uneducated certain regions are. Jared has also one of those setbacks and refuses to see reality especially related to other States, countries and set in the way he lived in Peoria in the center of this "island" ( I know that "backward" rust belt place) Therefore my prediction is that the Trump effect will have an lasting effect on this country in mentality and isolation from the real world out there. Like I said many times it is the fall of Rome all over again. However I must commend Schmidt for an clear mindset as well he proves "facts" in most cases. The thing I noticed on this site is that most Americans are afraid of "facts"; they prefer to live in la la land.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    Dutch said and says it all with "uniform and not united". States rights, deregulation and conservatism are tearing the country apart with self interest. The right makes it palpable with appeals to self interest and nationalism with a negative agenda that is breaking down the potential of the USA. The professed attitude characterized by promises progress and development is resulting in little to no GDP growth and mounting personal debt led by College for Profit. There is no growth in the future just short term capital gains.


  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Chet Ruminski Wrote: Yes they are. But if you would try to understand how I want that done you might agree. Give incentives of any and every kind imaginable to jobs producing investing. Penalize investments that stagnate and remove money from the economy. In that way the country will prosper and everything will be rosy.

    How do you know this? How would you pick and choose which investments should be penalized? How would any investor know if their investment will or won't work if they are penalized for investing in something that might not wind up working out?

    Do you see how this might have the exact opposite effect than what you claim to want? If investors are penalized every time they make an investment that doesn't work out then they will be less and less likely to invest in anything and instead park their money elsewhere.

    Chet Ruminski Wrote: Full employment with living wage jobs. Remember, the main and only action of my plan is to use the tax code to produce jobs through investing. I have said that if the country is prosperous throughout the entire income scale everything will fall into place.

    I'm all for a living wage, but full employment is a pipe dream that isn't based in reality. What good paying jobs do you recommend we create for failing and failed towns that have little infrastructure and no hope of drawing tourists during their holiday? What good paying jobs do you recommend we create for high school dropouts with little to zero qualifications for a job in the modern world? What about individuals convicted of a crime and are now carrying around a Scarlet Letter for the rest of their lives? The list can go on and on.

    How are you so certain that "everything will fall into place" if everyone is prosperous throughout the entire income scale? What does "fall into place" even mean?

    Does your "plan" take into account various factors like someones health (both mental and physical), qualifications, education, and location? Does your "plan" look into whether or not it's wise to spend an unlimited amount of money on towns that are dead or dying?

    Chet Ruminski Wrote: The lower class/income people are generous to a fault. More generous than any other group. They will give money for clean air, water, animals and vegetation more than any other group. Even with little or no money they donate to charities at a percentage greater than any other group and percentage wise shame Bill Gates. Then unions won't be needed because entrepreneurs will be seeking labor.

    I really have a hard time understanding your pathological hatred of Bill Gates. Shame him for trying to make the world a better place! Shame! Shame!

    Yes, lower income people give a disproportionate amount of their money to charities and they should be commended for that, but how do you know for sure they will continue to donate a disproportionate amount of their money to charities if they suddenly didn't have to worry about money anymore? There aren't many peer reviewed studies out there that look into the charitable giving of people who were once poor, but aren't poor anymore so I have a hard time understanding how you are so confident that poor people will continue to give the same percentage of their income to charitable groups.

    Chet Ruminski Wrote: Try and understand that the stock market and Wall Street left to their own devices have no interest in a goods and services economy. Wall Street is only interested in making as much as possible with the least amount of work. Penalize that lazy thinking with taxes and reward jobs producing investmenting and life will be great. The country is made of people and given their choice they will chose prosperity. Let the country benefit everybody. You don't have to give anybody anything. Let them work for what they want, including Wall Street and all financial businesses. Work for money.Opportunity and fair dealings are all that is needed.

    I really don't think you understand Wall Street. Wall Street is not a monolith; it's the financial capital of the United States and is made up of thousands of companies that are publicly traded.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    Schmidt Wrote:

    While it is okay to think idealistically of what a utopian society will look like if only everyone thought and acted the same way, dealing with the reality of the immense diversity of thought (differing worldviews) in this country and the world is considerably more difficult.

    Jill Stein is one who I hold up as a person on the left who has lost all touch with reality...she's just one of many on the extreme left. She has many polar opposites on the right who also cannot handle reality. In between we have some 300 million Americans whose individual worldviews fall somewhere along the continuum between these extremes. Their worldviews are a product of genetic make-up and life's experiences. Their brains are all wired differently but in many respects share the same goals in life.

    Accepting that we are different is a hard hurdle to overcome. We want to convert "the other" into our way of thinking rather than listening and seeking a common ground. If we can't convert them, we demonize them.

    We put people into buckets and stereotype them as conservative or liberal or Republican or Democrat or perhaps something even more emotionally charged...the "other's" religious beliefs. When we accept those labels upon ourselves, then tribal forces take over and we do not have to think critically about individual issues that may not affect us personally.

    In that political environment compromise is extremely difficult. Governing is hard work as President Obama would say. There are no quick fixes to the imperfections in our society. We just have to keep working them by participating in our great democracy. Change has come somewhat slow at times, but it has never been easy.

    Our democracy flourishes when people are fully engaged and thinking critically. When we do not educate ourselves on the issues and how they affect all Americans; when we become intolerant of the other and resort to demonization; when we become intransigent in our beliefs; and when we take our great democracy for granted, then we are ripe to be led by a demagogue to take us to the "promised land", the right's version of utopia which is the exact opposite of the left's utopia.

    That's the reality of our political landscape.

    I agree with Jared.

    Schmidt,

    That is a nice post but so far your position has always been whatever the DNC decides. You opposed Bernie and opposed his out of procedure view of the Platform. But when the DNC adapted some of the main points of Bernie's campaign you were fine with that except that you still would not accept Bernie as a Democratic Candidate. The 2016 election failed miserably with the platform that you supported and you appear to support the DNC as a matter of protocol and principal. Entertain thinking and criticizing but not to the extent that it can change the Platform or the DNC Hierarchy. Conditions continue to worsen for the working class and extreme realizations are required to prevent chaos. Good paying jobs are needed and the financial system needs to be taxed and regulated back into an economy of goods and services. Somewhere there is an economist or suitably trained person that is ready to say that an expanding stock market without a corresponding GDP is a disaster. The main drawback is that the big money financial system has such control over the lives of every professional that it would be near suicidal for financial professional to say "we are on the brink of a middleclass disaster". There has to be a huge correction but the only people suffering the burden will be the dutiful monthly contributors to the various funds and accounts that they are told to invest their money in. The upper money managers will not be hurt, they will just own an even greater share once the reaction to the over capitalization has ended, stocks have bottomed and another recovery/growth cycle begins.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Kenosha, WI
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    So, is this a religious thread or someone conveying a message though a bible passage or what? Are we talking about democrats in general watching fake news and believing it? Are we democrats able to separate fact from fiction to come to a conclusion on our own?

    A moderately intelligent democrat can recognize right wing tactics. Don't most democrats know the difference between demagoguery and facts about what is real?

    You will only succumb to stupidity if you allow it. To allow your mind to be poisoned, you'll need to listen to right wing radio broadcasts, read right wing internet sites, and watch right wing media reports. In fact, you might have an acquaintance or someone like your neighbor try to convince you that you should be influenced by what their output is, they'll provide strong and sometimes convincing arguments as to why you should believe everything the right wing says.

    I for one am not easily influenced by RW bullshit.

    I am of the belief that most democrats are free thinkers and are not sheep.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Dockadams Wrote: So, is this a religious thread or someone conveying a message though a bible passage or what? Are we talking about democrats in general watching fake news and believing it? Are we democrats able to separate fact from fiction to come to a conclusion on our own?

    Many left of center people can't separate fact from fiction and that worries me.

    I deal with facts. I have my own opinions about things, but I don't allow my opinions to overrule the truth. My opinion is that Donald shouldn't be President because he lost by three million votes, but the truth is that our Constitution doesn't give a shit about the popular vote and allows electors in the 50 states to choose our President.

    The same goes with some liberals who are certain!! that the world would be a blessed utopia if American voters simply elected Bernie or Jill Stein.

    Voting for a third party candidate in this country is literally throwing your vote away. That's why bumbling idiots like George W Bush and Donald Trump get elected President.

    Dockadams Wrote: A moderately intelligent democrat can recognize right wing tactics. Don't most democrats know the difference between demagoguery and facts about what is real?

    You will only succumb to stupidity if you allow it. To allow your mind to be poisoned, you'll need to listen to right wing radio broadcasts, read right wing internet sites, and watch right wing media reports. In fact, you might have an acquaintance or someone like your neighbor try to convince you that you should be influenced by what their output is, they'll provide strong and sometimes convincing arguments as to why you should believe everything the right wing says.

    I thought so until Russia was able to target Facebook users in swing states and convince them to stay home last November.

    Donald didn't win; Democratic voters in a handful of states stayed home and handed him the Presidency because they convinced themselves that Donald and Hillary were one in the same.

    How's that working out for them now?

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Kenosha, WI
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Dockadams Wrote: So, is this a religious thread or someone conveying a message though a bible passage or what? Are we talking about democrats in general watching fake news and believing it? Are we democrats able to separate fact from fiction to come to a conclusion on our own?

    Many left of center people can't separate fact from fiction and that worries me.

    I deal with facts. I have my own opinions about things, but I don't allow my opinions to overrule the truth. My opinion is that Donald shouldn't be President because he lost by three million votes, but the truth is that our Constitution doesn't give a shit about the popular vote and allows electors in the 50 states to choose our President.

    The same goes with some liberals who are certain!! that the world would be a blessed utopia if American voters simply elected Bernie or Jill Stein.

    Voting for a third party candidate in this country is literally throwing your vote away. That's why bumbling idiots like George W Bush and Donald Trump get elected President.

    Dockadams Wrote: A moderately intelligent democrat can recognize right wing tactics. Don't most democrats know the difference between demagoguery and facts about what is real?

    You will only succumb to stupidity if you allow it. To allow your mind to be poisoned, you'll need to listen to right wing radio broadcasts, read right wing internet sites, and watch right wing media reports. In fact, you might have an acquaintance or someone like your neighbor try to convince you that you should be influenced by what their output is, they'll provide strong and sometimes convincing arguments as to why you should believe everything the right wing says.

    I thought so until Russia was able to target Facebook users in swing states and convince them to stay home last November.

    Donald didn't win; Democratic voters in a handful of states stayed home and handed him the Presidency because they convinced themselves that Donald and Hillary were one in the same.

    How's that working out for them now?

    Part of the problem is that people who call themselves democrats don't get out to vote.

    Oh, yeah, the facebook faux news stuff I'd heard msm report about, people are sometimes gullible aren't they?

    Nope, Bernie was my choice in the primary, but me & spouse being democrats, when he lost the primary, we went for Mrs. Clinton, even though we both didn't really like her, but we vote str8 democrat ticket all the time. We would rather die in hell trying to sell charcoal than vote republican, because we both know what that means. Many people still don't know what the republican party stands for, and I'm not sure republican voters do either, as evidenced by Trump's win.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    I'm another one that knows exactly what the Republican Party stands for. And although I know many good Republicans...my neighbors for example, when it comes to party or country, they always put party first. I watched what they did as a party against Obama and local candidates here in Colorado. Ruthless is the word I keep using. They believe that only they can lead the country and are drunk on power when they do get a mandate.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Schmidt Wrote: I'm another one that knows exactly what the Republican Party stands for. And although I know many good Republicans...my neighbors for example, when it comes to party or country, they always put party first. I watched what they did as a party against Obama and local candidates here in Colorado. Ruthless is the word I keep using. They believe that only they can lead the country and are drunk on power when they do get a mandate.
    How could there be "good" Republicans? They all march in the same direction and must have something missing in their brains; they are unable to think progressive or rational and be able to analyse "facts" as well love to live back into the 50's. So I can't understand the word "good", just because they did not kill anyone yet or smile at you? If they are such "good" people why do they support an total maniac as well his cronies which help this country going back to the cave men period??