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Accountability: What if Trump had no connections with the Russians

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  • Independent
    Washington
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    What if Trump, as he claims, had no Russian connections (his businesses), and during the campaign, he personally did not have any communications with the Russians, and he had no awareness of any Russians communications among his campaign staff, but it is later determined by the FBI\CIA\etc that one or more members of his current WH staff did communicate with the Russians and they did work with the Russians to hack the DNC and other interference in the election process. Trump, finds out the truth when the final conclusion is reached, which clear him, but at the same time find that factually his campaign worked closely with the Russians enough to swing the election.

    Could Trump, legally, ethical, and politically not be held account accountable for the actions of his direct staff simply because he had no knowledge of their shady\illegal activities?

    The question is about accountability for actions of others. No person can control what other say\do, yet a CEO\President does create an environment of standards\expectations which employees operate. CEOs do get fired for the actions of others because it expected don't hire bad people, and\or fire them later for shady activities.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    wwjd -- That is an excellent question. It may be that Trump himself never had any direct contact with the Russians during the campaign that could meet the legal test of "collusion", but Flynn and others are most likely culpable. Isn't that how Ronald Reagan got off in the Iran-Contra scandal? As per Wikipedia, "the presidency of Ronald Reagan was marked by multiple scandals, resulting in the investigation, indictment, or conviction of over 138 administration officials, the largest number for any U.S. president." It has been labeled the most corrupt in history, yet despite all the indictments and convictions, not a single person served jail time.

    And Ronald Reagan is now revered in Republican circles as a great president. His name is widely honored even amongst Democrats. I'm surprised that we haven't made space for him on Mount Rushmore.

    What this points toward is that Republicans control the messaging and they can make a devil into a saint. Who knows, decades from now we might be holding up Donald Trump in the same light as Ronald Reagan. "He made America great again."

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Schmidt Wrote:

    wwjd -- That is an excellent question. It may be that Trump himself never had any direct contact with the Russians during the campaign that could meet the legal test of "collusion", but Flynn and others are most likely culpable. Isn't that how Ronald Reagan got off in the Iran-Contra scandal? As per Wikipedia, "the presidency of Ronald Reagan was marked by multiple scandals, resulting in the investigation, indictment, or conviction of over 138 administration officials, the largest number for any U.S. president." It has been labeled the most corrupt in history, yet despite all the indictments and convictions, not a single person served jail time.

    And Ronald Reagan is now revered in Republican circles as a great president. His name is widely honored even amongst Democrats. I'm surprised that we haven't made space for him on Mount Rushmore.

    What this points toward is that Republicans control the messaging and they can make a devil into a saint. Who knows, decades from now we might be holding up Donald Trump in the same light as Ronald Reagan. "He made America great again."

    Yes, all of this may be the case. But his slogan may change into: He made America "poor" again.
  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    Management Doesn't want to upset top management so while getting that next cup of coffee intentions and direction are discussed. Following the money is 99% of the time going to explain it all. Russian players wanted sanctions lifted and the new Exxon investment is absolutey huge. Things are bad and pockets are being filled.

    Dutch you are correct as well.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    wwjd Wrote: Could Trump, legally, ethical, and politically not be held account accountable for the actions of his direct staff simply because he had no knowledge of their shady\illegal activities?

    The short answer is no, he can not be held legally accountable for illegal actions done by someone else, but any politician can be held politically accountable for anything.

    However, I wouldn't hold your breath if you expect to convince any Donald supporter to change their mind about him. He could personally hold them at gunpoint and rob them blind and they would still find a way to blame Obama for it.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Kenosha, WI
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    wwjd Wrote:

    What if Trump, as he claims, had no Russian connections (his businesses), and during the campaign, he personally did not have any communications with the Russians, and he had no awareness of any Russians communications among his campaign staff, but it is later determined by the FBI\CIA\etc that one or more members of his current WH staff did communicate with the Russians and they did work with the Russians to hack the DNC and other interference in the election process. Trump, finds out the truth when the final conclusion is reached, which clear him, but at the same time find that factually his campaign worked closely with the Russians enough to swing the election.

    Could Trump, legally, ethical, and politically not be held account accountable for the actions of his direct staff simply because he had no knowledge of their shady\illegal activities?

    The question is about accountability for actions of others. No person can control what other say\do, yet a CEO\President does create an environment of standards\expectations which employees operate. CEOs do get fired for the actions of others because it expected don't hire bad people, and\or fire them later for shady activities.

    Then the Donald is Teflon, no charge of aiding, abetting or collusion can stick to him, unless one of his minion's spills some beans on what he knew and what he didn't know, but then, that could be termed as hearsay and dismissed as such. Trump has hired his own attorney, Flynn will be subpoenaed for documents, if he refuses to hand over anything, or to testify without immunity, he could be held in contempt, and the close tie to Trump's administration who is a person of interest might be called to testify or turn over documents, but could plead the 5th.. All the president's men. Sounds like the good makings for a movie....
  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    Liars and opertunist thieves versus the truth. I just don't know who will prevail.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    May be I'm nuts, but I've got the feeling also about the Dutch data I have, that Trump orchestrated the whole thing; but such way that he thought he would not be caught. I think Kussner played an role as well. Via his "cronies" he asked the Russians to sent the "false" input to the FBI, ( someone knowing the FBI system, must have told the Russians on how to get such document into those channels) the FBI fell for it including Comey. I bet Trump was directly involved; however if you watched the documentary which was placed on the site via the help of Schmidt ; then it is clear that Trump uses an huge web of associates to hide dirty "money" trails, as well other things which can't see the daylight. Money laundering etc. via the "mob" is one of his hobbies.
  • Independent
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    Under wwjd's very possible scenario it appears, much like the false god Reagan, that the buck doesn't stop at the top. It is always someone else's fault.
  • Independent
    Washington
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    Dutch Wrote: May be I'm nuts, but I've got the feeling also about the Dutch data I have, that Trump orchestrated the whole thing; but such way that he thought he would not be caught. I think Kussner played an role as well. Via his "cronies" he asked the Russians to sent the "false" input to the FBI, ( someone knowing the FBI system, must have told the Russians on how to get such document into those channels) the FBI fell for it including Comey. I bet Trump was directly involved; however if you watched the documentary which was placed on the site via the help of Schmidt ; then it is clear that Trump uses an huge web of associates to hide dirty "money" trails, as well other things which can't see the daylight. Money laundering etc. via the "mob" is one of his hobbies.


    My perception of Trump is that he has no problems crossing ethical lines and playing dirty, and has many business associates that operate the same way. He likes the Russians because the Russian government operates the same way, corruption=profits; their perspective is fuck regulation, show me the money. If they want something that is safe, clean, etc, then they will use their power\influence\money to get what they need for their personal use. Such thinking is something that Trump identifies with personally\professionally.

    Yet, at the same time, he has this uncontrollable need to be adored by the public and handles rejection more like an insecure 10-year boy trapped in a man' body.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    Nobody is that smart but somebody can be that lucky. A culmination of luck and talent can produce a sequence of actions that would crash the most sophisticated computer trying to plan and construct the same scenario. Trump in reality nor does anybody have the skill to construct such a series of complex actions that produce a desired result. He is bumbling around like a ball in a pinball machine. But in Trump's case every contact he makes with an obstacle has a positive result. His luck and talent are manifesting in positive results one after another continuously. Associating Trump with the results of all the positive outcomes makes him a focus of attention and what follows that is the natural human failing of making him the star. He becomes the super celebrity in the same way the winner of a hundred million dollar lottery becomes a celebrity. Trump has no more control over the outcome than the winner of a hundred million dollar lottery winner had over picking the winning numbers. Like a huge lottery winner Trump has a chance to do something good for mankind with the results of that good luck. But look what he is doing with the good fortune. Squandering it on selfish self serving actions that will actually set mankind backwards. There is no redeeming value to his actions, no method to the madness. With no plan for his actions the whole mess will collapse. His legacy might be the reaction to his selfishness. His mistakes might open eyes to what is really needed.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    how-trump-became-the-russian-mafias-bitch

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Veterans Today (VT) appears to be a conspiracy theory website mixing fact with fiction. I would be wary about the accuracy of anything in it.
  • Independent
    Washington
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    Schmidt Wrote: Veterans Today (VT) appears to be a conspiracy theory website mixing fact with fiction. I would be wary about the accuracy of anything in it.

    It is my perception there are probably just as many liberal conspiracy theories floating around as there conservative ones. Is Trump connected with the with Russian Mafia, and is Kushner a real-life Manchurian candidate? Probably not.

    IMHO, Trump is a minor league coach (and not a very good one), that managed to BS his way into becoming a coach of a Major League team, allowing him to get his picture taken with real Major League players around the world. When comes down to actual performance, he can't live up to the BS that got him there. Think about it, he is finishing up a world tour. Once he out of the WH, those photo ops, and connections, will likely double the Trump family fortune in future business transactions. "Hey, I'll just call up my best friend, the King of Sadia Arabia, and close the deal. No problem!".

    Bottomline: What Trump does as president will be what in is the best interest of Trump Inc. Everything things else is a second priority, and can not conflict with priority #1.

  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    wwjd good analogy. I think you are quite accurate. As far a liberal conspiracy theories.... uh no. I am sure there's are some but the R's thrive on that stuff so it's got to be a 1000 - 1 ratio. The term liberal should be eliminated immediately because it equates to dog shit, vomit, or any other rancid thing (due to Fox). If we only had creative imaginative wordsmith persons on our team we could change the vastly negative focus that has been created. Nope, Democratic tenet number 1. Be nice and politically correct always. Don't sway voters or political opinion but be the "nicest" losers ever. If Democrats had the massive majorities currently held by R's just imagine the proper international relations and the domestic progress that would be being made. Forgive my rant.