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I have come in peace

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    Is it just me? Why is there so much hate? Why are liberals so intolerant to other peoples beliefs and ideologies? Maybe it goes both ways but the internet and social media is flooded with liberals calling me a racist, misogynist, greedy and stupid idiot because I am a Republican. Maybe it because they just lost an election. I love this country but this rhetoric is what is taking the country back more than 2 steps. Is there such a thing as a moderate liberal that can engage in real conversation without calling me a racist? I want to understand and honestly get good dialogue going.
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    roughby -- I am one of those liberals who has good Republican neighbors. Good Americans. I would never call them racist or any other of those terms. However, for any of them that voted for Donald Trump and still stick by him after seeing him up close in the last few days, well maybe they need to do some soul searching. What many of us have noticed many months ago about Trump is now coming evident even to Republicans. The guy is just not worthy of the presidency. I cannot even come up with enough words to describe how scary the guy is to me.

    For those who give him the adulation that he so seeks and needs everyday, I say cut it out. He is a con man in every respect. He's conned some 60 million Americans with his lies and for that I'll give him the title of liar-in-chief. What is really sickening is his sending Sean Spicer out to lie for him in front of the press corps. That was embarrassing for him. I think most of the press corps now feel sympathy for Sean Spicer...he's just such a poor liar. And he gets ridiculed by his own boss for not lying forcefully enough.

    You can read all the posts here and get the sentiment of many Americans. If you want to engage in intellectual dialogue about Trump or Republicans in general, I'll be happy to engage you. But if you start throwing out alternative facts, then I guess I'll lose interest. Anyway, welcome to the Democratic Hub. We engage in lively conversations and often disagree.

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    Thank you for responding first of all. I appreciate that. But before we get into words like "alternative facts" which has become the fad of late I would like to give some background. I was raised by a close knit family in the middle of the country where there are not a lot of people, comparatively speaking of course. I grew up working in the summers with my family as far back as I can remember, my grandfather always running things. My grandpa was raised during the depression like a lot of other people. We were raised to believe that government should not dictate my life and less government was always better than overbearing, big bureaucratic, controlling, high taxing government. We made do with what we have and always saved every nickle we had. I was the second person in my family to make it through college, receiving my MBA from a respected university. Now taking over the small family business and caring for the people that work there as much as I can. I am sorry for the long biography but I want to make sure you understand where I am coming from. What makes me curious is how can democrats be opposed to letting me decide what I want to do with the money I make breaking my back rather than taking it from me and doing what they believe is right and I not agree with it? I really just do not understand. I do think there are a lot of issues this country has but making me responsible for all of them just does not seem fair to me. This is a big country and what might be right in California or New York obviously is not right to me and many in the middle of this country. I am just frustrated with the hate mongering and the feeling of being left out of the discussion and making me feel like some moron that has no idea. Again thanks for responding.
  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    Roughby, Hate is always ugly and it demeans and belittles too many. I am interested in your motives. You say you aren't happy about the hateful rhetoric but if you're honest and legitimate you have to admit the bulk of divisive hatred came from your side of the isle. I am skeptical so I will leave it there for now.

  • Liberal
    Independent
    Durham, NH
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    Fighting hate with love only caused one to lose in the end. Fight hate with more hate and in the end you will win if you are on the correct side. Liberals & Progressives are on the right side but when you allow the opposition to walk all over you you always lose.

    Wake up - this isn't a game, it's a war for our and the country's survival and so far we are loosing very badly!

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    roughby Wrote: We were raised to believe that government should not dictate my life and less government was always better than overbearing, big bureaucratic, controlling, high taxing government. We made do with what we have and always saved every nickle we had.

    Your words are revealing, roughby. "Raised to believe" is okay for certain moral codes on how you might treat other people, but when it goes beyond that to such a sinister view of our government, then you need to critically examine why you believe those harsh things about our government. I likewise was raised by parents who taught me about government, but in the opposite way. In particular, the value of sharing, not so much in their words, but how they lived their lives. In our poorest days, my mother would still share our food with a homeless person asking to be fed. She lived her life according to the teachings of Jesus. Oh and my father was also a role model in the same way...except he was an atheist. What I learned form them is tolerance.

    The point I am making about sharing is that there are less fortunate people in the world for many reasons. I won't go into all them. I've discussed them in other posts, but "providing for the general welfare" is in our constitution, and helping those who need help at certain times in their lives is a function of our government. I do not mind paying taxes if my tax money is spent on such things. I have a harder time when I see my tax dollars spent disproportionately on the military. In that sense I too will be critical of government spending.

    I was the second person in my family to make it through college, receiving my MBA from a respected university. Now taking over the small family business and caring for the people that work there as much as I can.

    Kudos to you. I commend you for that. There are many small businesses like yours who carve out a living for themselves and their employees. I accept that certain government regulations crafted to protect citizens from big business abuses can affect small businesses in ways that are harmful to their survival. That's why small businesses of less then 50 people have exemptions from some of those regulations. You need to write to your representatives in government to explain why certain regulations hurt you. They do listen if you make a good case. Before formally getting into her campaign in a big way, Hillary Clinton went on a listening tour across America to listen to the concerns of citizens and small businesses. Take a look at this from her campaign:

    Hillary Clinton: Four Ways to Jump-Start Small Business

    Read it and tell me what you think of her proposals.

    I am a wonk of sorts. I appreciate politicians like Hillary Clinton who laid out all of her proposals for a better government in extreme detail to be viewed and vetted by others. She was unique in that regard. I do not know if you read and thought about any of her proposals, but maybe you couldn't get past the first word...Hillary. If that's the case, it says something about yourself.

    What makes me curious is how can democrats be opposed to letting me decide what I want to do with the money I make breaking my back rather than taking it from me and doing what they believe is right and I not agree with it? I really just do not understand. I do think there are a lot of issues this country has but making me responsible for all of them just does not seem fair to me. This is a big country and what might be right in California or New York obviously is not right to me and many in the middle of this country.

    Your words show a certain bitterness and a criticism that is not based on facts. Show me any legislation that says Democrats are opposed to letting you decide what to do with your money. Now you are showing emotions and are losing me in this dialogue. I have learned long time ago not to engage people on this website who are so emotionally driven they cannot think critically.

    I am just frustrated with the hate mongering and the feeling of being left out of the discussion and making me feel like some moron that has no idea. Again thanks for responding.

    That hate mongering by Republicans against President Obama was unprecedented in history. The criticism many liberals expressed against him was that he turned the other cheek too often. Now candidate Trump and President Trump thrives on demeaning people and telling countless lies, values that are the opposite of what my parents taught me.

    Donald Trump is an authoritarian bully. I have read books and articles about those people, some of which become despots (authoritarian rulers) in leading their countries to ruin. What I have a harder time understanding is the authoritarian followers that find some kind of attraction in these bullies that they hitch their wagons to them.

    If you are feeling left out of the discussion and feeling like some kind of moron, maybe you need to critically examine your own beliefs and expand your base of knowledge. I know many people like yourself who live in bubbles, unable to try understand the other person's view. You might start by trying to understand why so many millions of people participated in the Women's March on Saturday. They too are frustrated.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Roughby, I happen to come from Europe; sorry to say things here are in some cases totally backwards; common sense is optional here. Your situation is quite simple; you live in an "capitalistic" country where only "money" counts not just "happiness or an clean neat environment" for all, where the "rules" of 1800 still are part of life. This is the country for the "rich" people like you have to "bow" to them. They make the rules or lack of rules for them. They "waste" their billions on utter crap and nonsense; while you suffer. If you are looking for an job; they will screen you all the way as well your knowledge and background. For an job as President you don't need that here; just "bully" your way in and don't pay taxes either. I hope that answer your question why things here don't work. It is getting back to the 1800's with "castle lords" and "useless" demanding people for an piece of bread. Just keep voting Republican then that is what you get "scraps of the table" of the rich.
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    Hate is ugly. It demeans everyone. I am not saying that government officials did not have hateful rhetoric. I guess I am trying to talk about a regular citizen. I do not recall Republicans protesting in streets and some rioting and some people setting things on fire. I am sorry but these are not negotiating tactics. These are hateful and spiteful people. I really want to get to a point where we can have real conversations without people automatically assuming I am wrong.
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    I am sorry but I will never believe hate will win. Is that what we have come to? Are we at war with each other? Is this what we have to do?
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    roughby -- I wrote this blog article on Fear and Hate two years ago -- on Martin Luther King Jr day.

    When Fear and Hate Rules Our Minds

    For many liberals who have watched the way Republicans treated (hated) President Obama for eight years, it is hard for us to not turn the table now, especially when Republican have installed as our president a man who has made a living out of selling hate. When I watch Trump's audience of supporters yelling such hateful things, I do wonder where they learned to hate so strongly. Parents, family, church, school, community? Or maybe it's in their genes.

  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    You see negativity in a protest or a burnt car. I see negativity in taking health insurance away from millions. You don't like reports on Fox news about liberal rhetoric. I don't like a manipulative con man stealing a position of leadership where he can trash our country's fight against pollution and give tax cuts to millionaires and billionaires. He is self serving and dangerous.

    What's good or bad depends on where you're sitting. The view is quite different if you open your mind.

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    Hi. OK. The first thing is I cannot trust the government. Sinister? Maybe. But with the level of corruption that I believe is on both sides of the isle and the lobbyists that consistently give millions to sway things their way, yes I cannot be honest with myself and trust that they will do what is best for me and my family. My family will always come first. They are the most important thing in this world to me.

    Yes there are less fortunate people in this world but let's start with the ones in this country first. Give a man a fish vs. Teach a man to fish. When you give a man a fish he relies on you to always give him a fish. Teach a man to fish and the possibilities are endless. It also brings pride and the respect of others.

    I promise to read and get back to you on Hilary.

    Sorry for getting emotional. I think I am just frustrated with how other discussions have gone. The taxes that keep going up is hard for me to accept. The ACA took a lot out of me because the health insurance that the company paid for the employees put me in the red. It's not working for us. Just because this company has less than 50 employees doesn't mean we are not paying for it. Trust me our private health insurer jumped our premium up 20% and we have looked everywhere to make it cheaper. Most of my employees that would get the same coverage through the ACA was not much better.

    OK. I will admit I voted for Trump. Do I believe he is the answer? Absolutely not but I think I needed a change in direction and Hillary was not that person. Yes the rhetoric from elected and journalism Republicans was harsh but I do not remember citizens marching in streets and protests and the average person calling me an idiot. I would not do that to anyone and I would hope others would have some respect for me.

    What I do believe is to seek compromise. Find a path for this country that can be agreeable to both sides. I am all in for a win - win. Until he can sit down and go through pros and cons we cannot move forward.

    Sorry if this sounds emotional and bitter but I am not please trust me. I am not that kind of person. I have never thought I would be in this kind of political discussion.

    Thanks again

  • Independent
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    Most intriguing.

    Until the election of the great prevaricator, Ronald Reagan, republicans believed in government. The rise of certain unelected elites combined with the Powell Memo and Reagan's deliberate anti-government belief structure has helped create the crisis situation in which this country finds itself. Mythology revolving around "private sector good, government bad" has given us a financial sector that has blown up every decade since the election of the great prevaricator. Every decade. The nonsense of government regulation being bad can be seen in the criminal Greenspan's admission to a "flaw" in his belief structure. A pretty damn big flaw. The crash of derivatives and the so-called shadow banking system cost everyone uncounted billions of dollars. That is just the start.

    as for comments regarding healthcare costs, costs have gone up for multiple years. Prices charged by providers, discounts and adjustments by insurance companies are deliberately opaque because there is profit in complexity. Despite the claims of neoclassical economists prices for goods, services and assets tell you virtually nothing about those goods, services and assets. But of even more interest why should business be responsible for insurance? No other OECD country has a system like the U.S. for healthcare delivery and payment. And no other country wants one. In the U.K. the NHS is under attack by the private sector including U.S. insurance companies. AFAIK only Switzerland utilizes a strictly private insurance healthcare payment system and the companies are told when to sit, stand and salute. It is NOT the same as the U.S. system. The reason for employee based healthcare payment goes back to the rise of socialism in the face of the Great Depression and the uneasy concord between the political system and Capital.

    Right now you are witnessing the de-coupling of the economy and the political process. Capital wishes for the enshrinement of economic technocrats unelected and unaccountable via the democratic process. It is happening and will continue to happen.

    Hatred? If some wish to use that word that is up to them. I would ask why the pharisaical right wishes to enshrine biblical law as the law of the secular state? Why does the pharisaical right hate and despise LGBTQ people? Why does xenophobia rein on the right? Do not attempt to point the finger of blame at the left. The hatred emanating in waves from the right is astounding. Hatred of labor is included. And the hatred has been brewing for decades. Trump said during the campaign that American workers make too much money. Then American business makes too much profit by that measure. Such is nonsense.

  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    But teach a man to fish and he will catch and eat a fish full of Mercury that comes from industrial smoke stacks and as a result of burning coal. A man can't safely enjoy a fish without serious health risks. A simple pleasure gone but it's alright if plenty got wealthy in the process.

    If you're angry about rising health care costs, blame insurance companies and their stock holders.

    Note: issues have been discussed w/o the hateful attitudes you began your introduction talking about. We're the party of inclusion and acceptance.

  • Liberal
    Independent
    Durham, NH
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    lonely bird Wrote:

    Most intriguing.

    Until the election of the great prevaricator, Ronald Reagan, republicans believed in government. The rise of certain unelected elites combined with the Powell Memo and Reagan's deliberate anti-government belief structure has helped create the crisis situation in which this country finds itself. Mythology revolving around "private sector good, government bad" has given us a financial sector that has blown up every decade since the election of the great prevaricator. Every decade. The nonsense of government regulation being bad can be seen in the criminal Greenspan's admission to a "flaw" in his belief structure. A pretty damn big flaw. The crash of derivatives and the so-called shadow banking system cost everyone uncounted billions of dollars. That is just the start.

    as for comments regarding healthcare costs, costs have gone up for multiple years. Prices charged by providers, discounts and adjustments by insurance companies are deliberately opaque because there is profit in complexity. Despite the claims of neoclassical economists prices for goods, services and assets tell you virtually nothing about those goods, services and assets. But of even more interest why should business be responsible for insurance? No other OECD country has a system like the U.S. for healthcare delivery and payment. And no other country wants one. In the U.K. the NHS is under attack by the private sector including U.S. insurance companies. AFAIK only Switzerland utilizes a strictly private insurance healthcare payment system and the companies are told when to sit, stand and salute. It is NOT the same as the U.S. system. The reason for employee based healthcare payment goes back to the rise of socialism in the face of the Great Depression and the uneasy concord between the political system and Capital.

    Right now you are witnessing the de-coupling of the economy and the political process. Capital wishes for the enshrinement of economic technocrats unelected and unaccountable via the democratic process. It is happening and will continue to happen.

    Hatred? If some wish to use that word that is up to them. I would ask why the pharisaical right wishes to enshrine biblical law as the law of the secular state? Why does the pharisaical right hate and despise LGBTQ people? Why does xenophobia rein on the right? Do not attempt to point the finger of blame at the left. The hatred emanating in waves from the right is astounding. Hatred of labor is included. And the hatred has been brewing for decades. Trump said during the campaign that American workers make too much money. Then American business makes too much profit by that measure. Such is nonsense.

    Once again you make good points LB. But, trying to convince a Trumpy voter he made a bad choice because he felt that change was needed is like trying to tell your wife she is fat, ugly and lazy - good luck!