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The Brexit exit

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  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    In Britain their supreme court has ordered an stop for the moment to proceed with the exit from the EU. At the end of the week the British Prime Minister will visit Trump. So I wonder will Trump try to meddle in UK politics?? My feeling is that the UK is wondering what are the benefits of getting out, because as they said they want to keep all the "goodies" from the EU connection but don't want to stay in the EU. Thus just like an little kid who only wants all the toys, but refuses to clean his room or follow rules. Sounds similar to us right now getting out of TPP and Nafta. What a world run by idiots.
  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    I don't like the UK isolation ideas of leaving the EU. While I admit I don't commonly purchase items of UK origin.... If or when they leave, it will have negative meaning to me as a consumer. For every action there is a reaction and I will not buy their products.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    The Brexit exit is very complicated, as predicted, and it seems Theresa May cannot get members of her own party to agree on a draft deal. One of the key sticking points is the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. New barriers and customs for a border that now is freely crossed?

    Reuters: British PM May battles to save Brexit deal as ministers quit

    Those who originally voted for Brexit had little idea of how it would work in practice, and many are regretting their vote (or absence of voting). Sound familiar?

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Sounds very familiar indeed. The French minister of economy explained the whole tariff thing how it effects the world. Right now most of the disaster is obviously related to the steel and aluminum tariffs, which did hit the car industry badly; now Trump wants to add another 25% on cars themselves. I guess Ross nor Meadows have any idea how things work outside the US. They should be waterboarded and banned from this country or jailed for life for sure.

    Just look at the effect on the stock market; it is now in "bear" country according to the experts. An recession is looming at the horizon. All of this caused by asshole Trump and his cronies.

    Don't forget also Britain is hit by the tariff thing on top of the Brexit thing. Ask Jaguar, McClaren etc.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Most people probably have little interest in what is happening "across the pond" with respect to Brexit. The New York Times has published a good article entitled, Brexit for the Non-Brit: What Is It, and Why Can’t They Get It Done?. For those so interested it's a way to catch up quickly on the politics behind the Brexit deal.

    It's also should serve as a "lesson learned" for those who look at democratic governments simplistically and cannot appreciate the many things that keep the wheels of democracy and government functioning...including deal making between political parties. Democracies, whether in Britain or the United States, requires an informed electorate that can think critically and not act on uninformed or misinformed emotions. Brexit has always been a bad deal...then and now.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Again Schmidt absolutely correct; we are the next "Brexit" I name it USXIT of the world. Isolation will create such.

    The US has stepped out of most international agreements also lots of other world wide agreements like the WTO.

    The consequences will make this an even more isolated "island". Britain always was an oddball "island" with their own oddities, like driving on the left, inches instead of metric, "weights" totally different than the continent, odd ball designs in engines, industry etc. clothed cream and crumpets etc. On top of it the Scott's, Irish, Wales who are also different. No wonder they don't fit in Europe. Their colonies where kind of weird as well, like India, Pakistan, Burma, Nigeria etc. Thus Britain will always remain kind of a "stand alone" arrogant country, the same as the ex-British colony which calls itself the UNITED? States.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    The British Parliament has overwhelmingly rejected (432 - 202) Theresa May's plan for Britain to exit the European Union. She is expected to survive a vote of no confidence today, but what about the future. No Plan B?

    In the meantime it looks like the British government is polarized.

    Jenni Russell, Opinion Writer, New York Times; Britain Needs a Miracle

    "With Mrs. May’s cabinet, the country, political parties and Parliament all hopelessly split over how or whether to carry out Brexit, Britain’s political universe is imploding and so are its political norms.

    "Every faction in each of the two main parties will be fighting and scheming for its preferred result, from a “no-deal Brexit” to a softer departure that leaves Britain closer to the European Union to abandoning the idea of leaving altogether. Predicting who will win is impossible because none of these factions have a majority and no one knows how or whether they will form alliances.

    "Politicians and journalists are frantically trying to game the next few weeks. Every outcome is unlikely and most seem utterly implausible, yet everything — from another indecisive election to a national unity government — is being suggested."

    Sound familiar?

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Very familiar indeed! Both these countries governments are based on the British model; thus what do you expect?

    I've written about that so many times; but the old steam locomotive keeps chugging along on the worn old tracks; no TGV at all here. Considering all the technological developments in this century; I would think both governments would move along with the times; but yeah in the "mindset" they are still stuck in 1800.

    There is an reason why the UK does not fit in with continental Europe; it is an "arrogant island" just like the US. They love isolation so do we. Why copy forms of government or even healthcare from others which do work; here they rather invent the "wheel" over again and let an President do whatever he likes as was the case with the Romanovs or Stalin or Henry the VIIIth.

    Shaking my old Dutch head; I always thought that this country loved advancement; but I'm mistaken all the way. If we are so much in love with Britain, then I think we should also be driving on the "left"; and put the old steam loc's back on the tracks fired up with coal which helps the Trump economy, sounds like an great idea for sure!

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    New York Times: Amid Parliament’s Brexit Rebellion, a Tectonic Shift in How Britain Is Governed

    "The Brexit fiasco seems to be forcing a tectonic shift in how Britain is governed, as Parliament flexes its muscles and the prime minister struggles to force through her agenda — a dynamic more characteristic of America’s gridlock-prone system.

    "Behind this change lie political shifts that have made it harder for British governments to secure convincing majorities in Parliament, with inconclusive elections and minority governments starting to become the norm...You’ve got a breakdown of the way traditional political parties have worked,” said Bronwen Maddox, the director of the Institute of Government, a London-based policy group. “M.P.s are supposed to follow what their party leader says. Now, they are pulled by the way their constituents will have voted, and by their own beliefs.”

    Well, yes there are parallels with the USA, but still Republicans are fiercely loyal to their tribe, and Democrats less so. Speaker Pelosi, however, is adding another dimension as she gets the betterment of Trump.

    As I understand it, however, much of Europe has similar forms of Parliamentary governments to Britain with a multitude of parties that have to form coalition governments after every election. Is that considered an advantage or disadvantage compared to America's largely two party system and fixed election dates?

    I don't see that either system is superior. The government is only as good as the people who choose participate in it by both running for office and voting. A democracy requires participation of an educated electorate to survive, and that is true in America, The United Kingdom and the Netherlands.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    I guess like you said; no form of government is perfect. But don't forget we have an two party system, without anything in the "middle" to balance the "system. While like in the Netherlands you've got about 11 parties (which is again too much), but at least the "middle" is covered; it is not ideal either. The issue here is that due to the 2 party system you get polarization. In our present case, it is also asking for "fanaticism" or even "fascism"; also it creates an "Freedom caucus" of oddball idiots of which you can't get rid of, just like the "tea party". So there must be something wrong in this form of governing.

    In order to prevent such, I've said so many times what the cause is. It has to do with the "education" as well no rigorous screening/vetting of candidates for all these functions, including the President. The half ass system of doing so gets this country in the present situation. Any idiot can run for an position if he/she shoves/collects enough "money" to get "in". Thus again it is the "all over" corruption (and no stringent "background checks"/tax returns etc. for any candidates) which gets us into the present situation. Thus an self inflicted wound again.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Brexit has 15 days left until Britain leaves the EU, but it seems Parliament cannot come up with a way to do it. Parliament voted to postpone the date again. Theresa May, however, is still in control despite attempts by lawmakers to take the process away from her. And there will not be a second referendum either...at least not for a while.Parliament has twice rejected Mrs.

    As the New York Time reports, "May’s proposed withdrawal agreement by resounding margins. They hemmed her in further on Wednesday by passing a measure opposing any attempt to leave without an agreement."

    I don't clam to understand all these Parliamentary procedures, but they seem kind of messy to me.

    I suppose the EU will grant the UK Parliament request for another extension so they have more time to squabble. If anything it makes for good entertainment.

  • Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    Dutch Wrote:

    I guess like you said; no form of government is perfect. But don't forget we have an two party system, without anything in the "middle" to balance the "system. While like in the Netherlands you've got about 11 parties (which is again too much), but at least the "middle" is covered; it is not ideal either. The issue here is that due to the 2 party system you get polarization. In our present case, it is also asking for "fanaticism" or even "fascism"; also it creates an "Freedom caucus" of oddball idiots of which you can't get rid of, just like the "tea party". So there must be something wrong in this form of governing.

    In order to prevent such, I've said so many times what the cause is. It has to do with the "education" as well no rigorous screening/vetting of candidates for all these functions, including the President. The half ass system of doing so gets this country in the present situation. Any idiot can run for an position if he/she shoves/collects enough "money" to get "in". Thus again it is the "all over" corruption (and no stringent "background checks"/tax returns etc. for any candidates) which gets us into the present situation. Thus an self inflicted wound again.

    Dutch, the problems we have really aren’t related to the number of parties. The parties themselves provided balance and acted as gatekeepers. There have been norms that prevented the mess we currently have to endure. What lies at the root of the mess was the egalitarianization of democracy by the voting rights act. Conservatives in the Democratic Party left en masses for the Republican Party. Said Republican Party then started putting forth candidates that were increasingly destructive to the “soft guard rails” that guided American politics for decades. Having more parties doesn’t solve anything in a non-parliamentary system. Changing the system would require basically rewriting the constitution which is not going to happen. Changing the impact of monies will help but won’t completely solve the problem. I just finished a book on this but as I am sitting in a hotel room I don’t have it and can’t remember the damn name. When I find it I will post it.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    The Republican party started making greed the focus of their party in retribution for FDR. Look at the respect they have generated when AOC can criticize FDR. That is like criticising Mother Teresa for having boring clothes. Greed needs a lesson in human rights.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Lonely, thanks. However you are forgetting that the biggest problem is CORRUPTION! As long as "money" runs the show, then not any form of government works. Also if you let "uneducated" super religious people of the "dumb" States run the show then the result is as it is right now. Kentucky should not run the country, but McConnell does.

    Thus get the "money out of all things in government; no more "slush funds to bribe" no more "Super PAC's", no more "billionaires" with influence, no more lobbyists, no NRA influence, elections without money (limit it to very small donations to be able to cover the cost only) no more Trump type rally's etc. with huge cost for flying an huge plane and hundreds of "secret service people" Trump's trips have cost the tax payer now after two years at least 500 million. Thus there is lots to fix on this "silly" island. If you elect an "dumb mob" uneducated President then you also get dumb followers as well "mob" type people in the government. Also it would be wise to indeed to rewrite the Constitution, for instance "no electoral college" an strict detailed section on the limits of the President and qualifications to become one. Each time someone says: "this never happened before"; the Constitution does not cover it" You can't go on forever with "case" laws only and let a zillion lawyers tinker with it. Any "base law" should always be caught up with the "times". Due to the fact our "base laws" are full of holes and written 200 years ago, then Trump or others have no problem to become dictators. Doing nothing will get us into an Venezuela situation. Trump already did prove where the "loopholes" are.

  • Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    Dutch Wrote:

    Lonely, thanks. However you are forgetting that the biggest problem is CORRUPTION! As long as "money" runs the show, then not any form of government works. Also if you let "uneducated" super religious people of the "dumb" States run the show then the result is as it is right now. Kentucky should not run the country, but McConnell does.

    Thus get the "money out of all things in government; no more "slush funds to bribe" no more "Super PAC's", no more "billionaires" with influence, no more lobbyists, no NRA influence, elections without money (limit it to very small donations to be able to cover the cost only) no more Trump type rally's etc. with huge cost for flying an huge plane and hundreds of "secret service people" Trump's trips have cost the tax payer now after two years at least 500 million. Thus there is lots to fix on this "silly" island. If you elect an "dumb mob" uneducated President then you also get dumb followers as well "mob" type people in the government. Also it would be wise to indeed to rewrite the Constitution, for instance "no electoral college" an strict detailed section on the limits of the President and qualifications to become one. Each time someone says: "this never happened before"; the Constitution does not cover it" You can't go on forever with "case" laws only and let a zillion lawyers tinker with it. Any "base law" should always be caught up with the "times". Due to the fact our "base laws" are full of holes and written 200 years ago, then Trump or others have no problem to become dictators. Doing nothing will get us into an Venezuela situation. Trump already did prove where the "loopholes" are.

    Dutch, I will disagree slightly. While corruption and the influence of money is a major issue it is superseded by stupidity, ignorance, racism and exceptionalism. Even if money were rooted completely out of politics Trump could have run and likely would have won.

    Now the electoral college which was created so that slaveholding states wouldn't lose their slaves needs to go away. the concept that this would mean that so-called plover country would be ignored is ridiculous. They would still have congresspeople and senators. That the candidate one particular party would be directly elected does not damage "flyover" country. If Republicans can produce a candidate that is electable strictly on policy as opposed to pandering to so-called swing states then so be it. Conservatism requires limiting the vote and the electoral college is one way to do that.

    The name of the book is "How Democracies Die" by Steven Levitsky and Daniel Ziblatt.