Forum Thread

Is the system rigged?

Reply to ThreadDisplaying 1 - 15 of 41 1 2 3 Next
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        

    Trump keeps screaming that the system is rigged; yes he's correct the system is rigged by his "party". For instance here (FL) on the news they said that most "mail in" ballots are thrown away because the signature on the back of the envelope does not match their voter record. I started voting 15 years ago; sure my signature may have had changes over time, especially if you are my age. Also putting your signature on an thick envelope on the back through the glued lip may distort it. All kind of tricks they invented on purpose. But yeah this is again a method for voter suppression. Furthermore they make sure the voting locations are far from the "lower class" area's. They make the language on the ballot in such way that uneducated people can't understand what it means. Also they make sure on the ballot that the GOP candidates are on top in the list; never an Dem's candidate. Furthermore they delete the party affiliation of the local nominated people so you have no clue and most people will then select the first line candidate ( which is of course an GOP one) Lots of trick questions related to "solar" and " pot".

    Sorry but things like that never happen Europe. Again this is an corrupt third world country, especially if you see what our new Hitler is promoting.

  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        

    I saw that news story as well. It was a serious concern. Tru. is spreading garbage daily. Small minded people and their questionable approaches. He's heavily suggesting that his well armed thug supporters go to voting sites to intimidate voters. Especially those voters who don't seem white enough. I have seen it suggested that the president should have the national guard on stand by status to address voter intimidation and/or to stop violence if "their guy" doesn't get in.

    In closing, we have found hate and anger to be prevalent in this country. It would be wise for the new potus to find an effective way to address that. I fear it will be more like the last 7+ years. Whatever happened to working together ?

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    TJ Wrote:

    I saw that news story as well. It was a serious concern. Tru. is spreading garbage daily. Small minded people and their questionable approaches. He's heavily suggesting that his well armed thug supporters go to voting sites to intimidate voters. Especially those voters who don't seem white enough. I have seen it suggested that the president should have the national guard on stand by status to address voter intimidation and/or to stop violence if "their guy" doesn't get in.

    In closing, we have found hate and anger to be prevalent in this country. It would be wise for the new potus to find an effective way to address that. I fear it will be more like the last 7+ years. Whatever happened to working together ?

    Tony, the polarization is stronger than ever; if Trump loses, I bet there will be street wars. The weird thing is in this country, if people have an "believe" then they will never think nor change and stay fanatic.. The Trump "deplorables" will stick to their convictions, even if it ruins there future. It is just as with Hitler; people are so indoctrinated that they will kill for it. Another crazy thing I saw on CNBC is that all of a sudden (right now) an lot of billionaires are giving millions to the Trump campaign; Hillary's fund raising did not get an tenth of what Trump got. Talking about conspiracy. Is this election being "bought" after all? You still think this is an honest "god fearing" country? Don't let me laugh.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    Democracy is rule by numbers. The documentary about Trump said his training from Roy Cohn was to say anything and deny everything. That has gotten him a lot of numbers. Germany was a Democracy when Hitler began his rise to power.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    Dutch Wrote: Tony, the polarization is stronger than ever; if Trump loses, I bet there will be street wars. The weird thing is in this country, if people have an "believe" then they will never think nor change and stay fanatic.. The Trump "deplorables" will stick to their convictions, even if it ruins there future.

    No, we are not as polarized as ever. Not even close.

    This country fought a Civil War that killed over 620,000 Americans on both sides of the fight. I'd call that pretty polarized. We also nearly fought a second Civil War during the Civil Right's movement of the 1960's. I'd call that pretty polarized, as well.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    TJ Wrote: In closing, we have found hate and anger to be prevalent in this country. It would be wise for the new potus to find an effective way to address that. I fear it will be more like the last 7+ years. Whatever happened to working together ?

    There's never really been a time like that in America. Democracy has always been messy.

    What is new is the rise of 24/7 "news" channels and the internet. We all have an echo chamber to reaffirm our preconceived beliefs and are able to block out any opposing views.

  • Independent
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        

    Actually Jared, I would not have said the country was more polarized before the civil war. The south did not oppose the concept of government as established by the constitution. Today's conservatives/republicans (for all those out there who say they are not the same that is a load of crap) actually believe in the destruction of government. From debt ceiling battles to playing chicken with the credit rating of the government to unwillingness to vote on presidential appointees for vacant judicial spots we have seen nothing but contempt for government and thereby contempt for the very document and country they claim to love and honor. It is bullshit, pure and unalloyed.

    as to whether it is rigged or not that is something else. It is not rigged in the sense that votes are not counted (2000 excepted) but rather that the process from redistricting to the media to so-called debates has become dysfunctional. And the biggest blame lies not with citizens united or the parties but with an electorate that is incapable of creative, thoughtful analysis. To borrow from Parke Godwin: what happens when you expose an intelligent being to facts? Among humans, civil war.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    lonely bird Wrote: Actually Jared, I would not have said the country was more polarized before the civil war. The south did not oppose the concept of government as established by the constitution. Today's conservatives/republicans (for all those out there who say they are not the same that is a load of crap) actually believe in the destruction of government. From debt ceiling battles to playing chicken with the credit rating of the government to unwillingness to vote on presidential appointees for vacant judicial spots we have seen nothing but contempt for government and thereby contempt for the very document and country they claim to love and honor. It is bullshit, pure and unalloyed.

    I'll have to strongly disagree with you on this one. The South seceded from the Union and declared that the Constitution was null and void. That is a whole lot different than some charlatan feeding off of peoples fears and promising them that a vote for him will cure all of their ills.

  • Independent
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    the constitution the south established was virtually the same as the u.s. constitution. they did not oppose government as a concept. they opposed a government that was going to stop their ability to own people. the republican party of today opposes government as a concept while spewing words like freedom.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    lonely bird Wrote: the constitution the south established was virtually the same as the u.s. constitution. they did not oppose government as a concept. they opposed a government that was going to stop their ability to own people. the republican party of today opposes government as a concept while spewing words like freedom.

    No, it wasn't. Words matter and the Constitution of the Confederate States of America changed a lot of words. They can't just copy and paste the original Constitution and then replace certain words. That's not how it works.

    I also encourage you to read through the differences between the two Constitutions.

  • Independent
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    lonely bird Wrote: the constitution the south established was virtually the same as the u.s. constitution. they did not oppose government as a concept. they opposed a government that was going to stop their ability to own people. the republican party of today opposes government as a concept while spewing words like freedom.

    No, it wasn't. Words matter and the Constitution of the Confederate States of America changed a lot of words. They can't just copy and paste the original Constitution and then replace certain words. That's not how it works.

    I also encourage you to read through the differences between the two Constitutions.

    You miss the point. The systems were virtually the same. The changes while not cosmetic were not significant to make the claim the CSA wasn't a democratic republic because it was. The Republican Party of today wants to destroy government, period. The confederacy wanted a democratic republican government that allowed for the ownership of human beings by other human beings. I will grant that the end result was both more highly centralized and at the same time had issues like the articles of confederation. That was due to the extreme fallacy of states' rights and attempting to form a country through insurrection. Both failed miserably but it doesn't change the fact that csa was a democratic republic.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    lonely bird Wrote:
    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    lonely bird Wrote: the constitution the south established was virtually the same as the u.s. constitution. they did not oppose government as a concept. they opposed a government that was going to stop their ability to own people. the republican party of today opposes government as a concept while spewing words like freedom.

    No, it wasn't. Words matter and the Constitution of the Confederate States of America changed a lot of words. They can't just copy and paste the original Constitution and then replace certain words. That's not how it works.

    I also encourage you to read through the differences between the two Constitutions.

    You miss the point. The systems were virtually the same. The changes while not cosmetic were not significant to make the claim the CSA wasn't a democratic republic because it was. The Republican Party of today wants to destroy government, period. The confederacy wanted a democratic republican government that allowed for the ownership of human beings by other human beings. I will grant that the end result was both more highly centralized and at the same time had issues like the articles of confederation. That was due to the extreme fallacy of states' rights and attempting to form a country through insurrection. Both failed miserably but it doesn't change the fact that csa was a democratic republic.

    Lonely you are right; indeed what you wrote is correct; "there never has been more polarization than ever" because of an two party system which has grown totally apart; In principal it is "the have's versus the have not's", as well the religious evangelicals versus the moderates and racism , all because of the lack of education. Jared lives in "statistics" land as well and forgets today's reality , versus the "civil" war, which was more or less centered around "slavery' and "white" cotton barons and northern industrialists; thus "two" country area's, not the Washington "inbred" clan versus the "deplorables" as it is today. Don't forget it is no longer the 1800's but 2016; but still a lot of 1800's stupidity sticks like glue, like the "second amendment"

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    lonely bird Wrote: You miss the point. The systems were virtually the same. The changes while not cosmetic were not significant to make the claim the CSA wasn't a democratic republic because it was. The Republican Party of today wants to destroy government, period. The confederacy wanted a democratic republican government that allowed for the ownership of human beings by other human beings. I will grant that the end result was both more highly centralized and at the same time had issues like the articles of confederation. That was due to the extreme fallacy of states' rights and attempting to form a country through insurrection. Both failed miserably but it doesn't change the fact that csa was a democratic republic.

    I think you're missing the point, as well. We are talking about whether or not the system is rigged and then it quickly devolved into a debate as to whether or not we are as polarized as we've ever been. My first response was to Dutch saying that there have been multiple times in our nations short history where we have been more polarized than we currently are.

    Then I responded to Tony and said that Democracy has always been messy and that the echo chamber of the internet allows us to block out any opposing viewpoints.


    I'm more than happy to engage in a debate with you about American history and the various degrees of polarization we have had throughout the two plus centuries we've been a republic, but that is for an entirely different thread.


    The question at hand is "Is the system rigged?" and I just don't believe it is.

    The definition of rig[ged] is: [to] manage or conduct (something) fraudulently so as to produce a result or situation that is advantageous to a particular person.

    I know it drives Dutch nuts, but I am someone who actually cares about definitions and facts. (I am a little confused as to why that is a bad thing, but that's for another time.) So if you actually take the definition of rigged literally then you should be able to come to the conclusion that no, our elections are not rigged.

    People vote. Sometimes we like the result and sometimes we don't. That doesn't mean the system is rigged; it means that the system is working exactly the way it's intended to.

  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    Something I read today said that an expert researched this topic and (according to his facts) in the last 15 years three hundred + in person cases of voter fraud were recognized in a billion official votes. That doesn't equal a rigged system but we can't be using facts or it kills the mindless rhetoric.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    TJ Wrote: Something I read today said that an expert researched this topic and (according to his facts) in the last 15 years three hundred + in person cases of voter fraud were recognized in a billion official votes. That doesn't equal a rigged system but we can't be using facts or it kills the mindless rhetoric.

    Pesky facts. They always come back to bite conspiracy theorists in the ass.

    Unfortunately conspiracy theorists don't care about facts. Facts don't matter when someone has convinced themselves that they are right and anyone who disagrees with them are stupid idiots who just don't see the truth.