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If The Green Party Can't Win, Should They Be Ignored?

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  • Independent
    Arcata, CA
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    I wrote two posts on Thom Hartman's message board last night. However, they were removed and my thoughts were censored. I will do my best to recreate them.

    Background:

    Last Night (7-21-16) on his show The Big Picture, Thom Hartmann expressed his opinion that since the Green Party, Libertarian Party and other minor political parties can not win, they are not worth the time to discuss.

    "Frankly the reason why I haven't been paying much attention to either the Green Party or the Libertarian Party is because their candidates are not going to become president" (Hartmann). He later refers to minor political parties as "clubs".

    Hartmann then goes on to express that he would love to see a revitalized Green Party that is doing a lot of grassroots work on every level from dog catcher on up. Hartmann said he knows there are several dozen elected Green Party officials across the country. He said he would like to see more of that.

    However, Hartman then says because this presidential election is very consequential, any energy put in to minor political parties is "a waste of time".

    My following commentary was censored and removed from his discussion forum. I guess since he owns it, he can decide what is allowed on it. How Progressive of him:

    Censored Commentary:

    On the Big Picture as well as on his radio show today, Hartmann presented the opinion that since they can't win, discussing the Green Party, Libertarian Party or any other minor political party in America is simply a waste of time. He calls them "clubs".

    This is regressive thinking. It encloses the major parties in bubbles and ensures they will never really change, particularly in actual governance. It shields them from new ideas. Worst of all it ignores those voters that are attracted to the policies of minor parties. So, with this philosophy, Hartmann shuts out people and ideas with willful ignorance. Quite regressive indeed.

    With 44% of registered voters not affiliated with either Republicans or Democrats, a lot of people are being shut out of the discussion.

    In liberal or progressive media, all ideas and parties should be open for discussion. We are supposed to like and honor alternative choices regardless of their ability to win. We are supposed to value morality and not immoral practicality.

    When The Green Party is finally given the attention it deserves, it will grow like a Bernie.

    I live in the first and only community in America that has ever had a Green Party town council. Not a single council member, but the majority vote. We were the first community in the nation to ban the growth of ANY type of GMO within city limits (except for university research in controlled conditions). We were the first community in California to own a community forest. My entire county voted 68% for Sanders in the primary and will likely be won by Jill Stein.

    It's not easy being green. But, we are growing like our Redwoods. Soon you will no longer be able to ignore us.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    If a radio host doesn't want to discuss certain parties then that's his right to do so. Right wing radio hosts like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity don't give equal time to every political party. That is their right to do so, as well.

    I don't think anyone should have the power to tell other people what to talk about. If his listeners really wanted him to talk about minor parties then I'm sure he would do so, but if there aren't enough viewers who want him to then why would he?

    ChrisTafari Wrote: In liberal or progressive media, all ideas and parties should be open for discussion. We are supposed to like and honor alternative choices regardless of their ability to win. We are supposed to value morality and not immoral practicality.

    When The Green Party is finally given the attention it deserves, it will grow like a Bernie.

    No one is preventing you from discussing anything. You have just as much to state your opinions as a radio host has a right to talk about what they want to talk about.

    And I hate to break it to you, but I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for the Green Party to become a dominant force in American politics.

    ChrisTafari Wrote: I live in the first and only community in America that has ever had a Green Party town council. Not a single council member, but the majority vote. We were the first community in the nation to ban the growth of ANY type of GMO within city limits (except for university research in controlled conditions). We were the first community in California to own a community forest. My entire county voted 68% for Sanders in the primary and will likely be won by Jill Stein.

    All politics is local and it's truly wonderful that you live in a community that legislates in a way that conforms to your ideologies. I'm not being sarcastic when I say that I'm happy for you.

    But I will point out that Arcata, CA is a town whose population is less than many big city neighborhoods and what works for you doesn't necessarily mean that it will vote for the rest of America.

    The Party doesn't appeal to conservatives and to believe that it ever will is a fantasy. Their platform is the exact opposite of the Republican Party and no amount of media coverage is going to get die hard conservatives to do an about face and join the Green Party.

    I have nothing against smaller political parties. They can do a tremendous good in local governments, but our Federal government is a parliamentary system. The main party that sticks together when another one fractures is the one that will be in charge of government for a generation.

    It's what happened to the Democrats after they fractured in 1968 and it has taken decades to build their national coalition and it seems as if it's about to happen to the Republican Party since the rise of the Tea Party. The party is in a very perilous state and left leaning voters would be giving themselves a self-inflicted wound if they register a protest vote for President.

  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    I don't think that trying to exclude others is ever good. You can certainly vote in any manner that you choose. The bigger question is what do you expect to accomplish. If you want to leave your mark as having been one who thought differently..... that's easy enough to do. If you think that your candidate will win...... I guess it's possible though drastically unlikely. If you firmly believe, tell everybody that you know and if you're convincing, perhaps they'll tell others as well. I think a small victory would be reaching 15% in the polls which gets your person invited to the first debate. Frankly though I think that's about all that could be accomplished. In a perfect world there would be a presidential election with various candidates who each bring unique ideas and opinions. I'll be shocked if it goes very far.
  • Independent
    Arcata, CA
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    Thank you for your responses. However they seem to be as morally void as the political system itself.

    I understand people have election fervor and are advocating their lesser evil. So, I also understand people are compelled to waste their time giving trying to give others unsolicited election advice.

    However, my issue has nothing to do with the practicality of winning elections. It's strictly moral in nature. It involves the disenfranchisement of voters and ideas, not only in corporate media, but in self-described "Progressive media" as well. It has to do with the monopolization of discussion. It has to do with the hypocrisy of claiming to be liberal or progressive, but shut ideas out if they expose your candidate's inadequate positions on issues. It's about censorship.

    Think of this as if there were no election happening. The idea that people's moral reasoning changes during an election is frightening lack of integrity. Also, a great hypothesis for a psych dissertation.

    Can a moral person place practicality above morality and claim their actions are moral?

    It's very egocentric and even sociopathic to disrespect someones ideas and affiliations, then ask them for something like their vote. Such actions are not embracing and attractive, they are repulsive. They are the justifying of immoral behavior to achieve an end. Where does such a person draw the line? Where does a moral observer that despises attempted coercion draw the line? How can such people be trusted?

    What is really telling is that nobody actually put any thought into or provided an answer to the question I originally asked. They went straight to the very election rhetoric that I am complaining drove an otherwise good, mostly progressive, talk show host into thinking and behavior that alienates voters and ideas.

    It's actually counterproductive on his part. So is advocating for the corrupt two party system that people are demanding be changed - 44% of us. We want a voice too. We outnumber Democrats by 14% and Republicans by 18%. We left those parties - 44% of all registered voters do not affiliate D or R. Yet, minor parties and issues aren't worth discussing? That is a disgustingly hypocritical and undemocratic idea for anyone that calls themselves Democrat, let alone a Progressive.

    Is anyone surprised 44% of registered voters refuse to call themselves Democrats or Republicans? You can not get us back or drive us to the polls for you by reminding us of how bad the other side is. We left the major parties, not because of the behavior of the other side, but because of the bad behavior of the major party to which we were once registered.

    Therefore, the only way to satisfy us is to change the party for which you would like us to vote or rejoin. You must improve your party and your candidate. You can not do that by discussing the opposition. It's counterproductive, like shutting us out of your primaries, then trying to fear monger us into voting for who you chose without our input. 44% of registered voters, you should probably start treating us better.

  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    It's dinner time and you open the refrigerator...... if you're wealthy, you've got dozens of choices. If you live in the real world you have a few choices (hopefully) or one or two choices. Time to eat, what are you going to do ? If you can manage to change the world between now and November, I'll take my hat off to you.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Tafari, I'm not an "independent" for nothing; actually this is an solely "Capitalistic Christian Island" who thinks an by humans invented "god" thing will help them to get rich, as well helps them fight all their "hobby" wars and "bless" them for it.
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    I have looked at the Green Party Platform from time to time.

    Platform of the Greens/Green Party USA

    All I can say about this latest version is whew...or wow. It blows my mind. It's the most radical left wing platform I have seen, probably even more left than some communist countries.

    If Jill Stein gets elected by some miracle, this is what she wants to do with America? I hope everyone reads it.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Don't want to read the Green Party Platform? Okay here are a few extracts. Comments?? Chet?

    Workplace Democracy: Establish the right of workers at every enterprise over 10 employees to elect supervisors and managers and to determine how to organize work.

    Democratic Conversion of Big Business: Mandatory break-up and conversion to democratic worker, consumer, and/or public ownership on a human scale of the largest 500 US industrial and commercial corporations that account for about 10% of employees, 50% of profits, 70% of sales, and 90% of manufacturing assets.

    Democratize Monetary Policy and the Federal Reserve System: Place a 100% reserve requirement on demand deposits in order to return control of monetary policy from private bankers to elected government. Selection of Federal Reserve officers by our elected representatives, not private bankers. Strengthen the regional development mission of the regional Federal Reserve Banks by directing them to target investments to promote key policy objectives, such as high-wage employment, worker and community ownership, ecological production, and inner city reconstruction.

    Wealth Tax: Enact a steeply progressive tax on net wealth over $2.5 million (the top 5% of households).

    A Global Green Deal: Build world peace and security through a Global Green Deal. First, the US should finance universal access to primary education, adequate food, clean water and sanitation, preventive health care, and family planning services for every human being on Earth.

    Unemployment Compensation for Striking and Locked-Out Workers

    • Binding Contract Arbitration at Union Request
    • Full Rights for Farmworkers, Public Employees, and "Workfare" Workers under the Fair Labor Standards Act
    • Ban Prison Slave Labor: End the use of US prisoners to produce goods and services for sale to the public.
    • Double-Time Pay for All Overtime
    • Prohibit Mandatory Overtime
    • 6 Weeks Paid Vacation Annually in addition to Federal Holidays
    • 1 Year Paid Educational Leave for Every 7 Years Worked
    • 1 Year Parental Leave for Each Child Born with No Loss of Seniority
    • Right to Work Short Hours: No discrimination in pay and promotion against workers who choose to work short hours.

    Peace Conversion: Cut US military spending unilaterally by 75% in two years to establish a non-interventionist, non-offensive, strictly defensive military posture and save nearly $250 billion a year.

    Fair Trade: Withdraw from the World Trade Organization, NAFTA, and all other corporate-managed trade agreements that are driving down labor and environmental conditions globally. Establish an internationalist social tariff system that equalizes trade by accounting for the differences among countries in wages, social benefits, environmental conditions, and political rights. Tariff revenues to a democratic, international fund for ecological production and democratic development in poor countries in order to level up social and environmental conditions to a high common standard.

  • Liberal
    Independent
    Durham, NH
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    Actually it all sounds pretty good to me! Too bad she doesn't have a chance and never will.

    Idealogs never win - too bad, but all the wishful thinking won't change reality!

    At least DWS is as flat as the Roadrunner crossing rt 66! Perhaps there is a god? On second thought no, shit always seeks its own level and she certainly has the past 24 hours ;)

  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    We have a democrat as POTUS and the congress and senate did everything possible to not work for 7.5 years.

    I M A G I N E if we had a third party president. Absolutely nothing would be done. A lot of former democrats are going to vote for one of these two - other candidates -. God help us all.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Just to be clear. I blame the voters of New Hampshire and Florida who voted for the Green Party candidate, Ralph Nader, in 2000 for electing George W. Bush.

    Since they elected Bush, they are responsible for not taking action preventing 9/11; they are responsible for Bush's Iraq war and Afghanistan war, the appointment of Alito and Roberts to the Supreme Court, Citizens United, and tax cuts for the rich.

    Elections have consequences, and I just wanted to remind folks of the consequences of a Ralph Nader vote in 2000. A Jill Stein vote or a Donald Trump vote (yes some Bernie supporters are planning to vote for Trump) in 2016 could have the same consequences.

    I have no use for the Green Party whatsoever. They have lost all touch with reality. Their platform of free stuff reminds in some ways of Hugo Chavez's Bolivarian revolution. Look what it got Venezuela. I was there. I lived there. I watched it unfold.

  • Liberal
    Independent
    Durham, NH
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    Good thing I'm a true Massachusetts Progressive and didn't live in NH at that time! In fact I wish I didn't live in this state full of hate filled conservative republican assholes, but unfortunately I do.

    I'm proud to have voted for Bernie however and admire the Greens platform. Being a realist I would never waste my vote on them or the Libertarians tho.

    As a side note every Democrat should read what Robert Reich has to say about Hillary before she delivers Trump to us - he really has it nailed!

    salon.com/2016/07/25/hillary_doesnt_get...

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    pr Wrote:

    Good thing I'm a true Massachusetts Progressive and didn't live in NH at that time! In fact I wish I didn't live in this state full of hate filled conservative republican assholes, but unfortunately I do.

    I'm proud to have voted for Bernie however and admire the Greens platform. Being a realist I would never waste my vote on them or the Libertarians tho.

    As a side note every Democrat should read what Robert Reich has to say about Hillary before she delivers Trump to us - he really has it nailed!

    salon.com/2016/07/25/hillary_doesnt_get...

    Reading all of this, then I get the idea that this country absolutely does not know what it wants; thus the end result will always be an unwanted situation. Looking at the points Schmidt mentioned, I have to laugh, I had years ago most of those points of the "green" party in my job. Which means this country is running at least 30 years behind Europe.

    At least Hillary shows her hypocritical colors by denying she did not know anything about the Bernie treatment. So Trump may have said it correct; you can't trust Hillary.

  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    You liked him. You voted for him. Do you ever LISTEN to him ? Politics in politics, how did that ever happen ? People will sometimes do good things and will sometimes do things to get them the results they are wanting. There's no big surprise there. Crazy protests in Phili today. Trump ? NRA ? KKK ? not in the first 18 rows..... they have to get in line because there are thousands walking in a daze mumbling Bernie, Bernie, Bernie, (mom take your medicine - NOOO !!!!) Bernie, Bernie, Bernie...... These crazed morons are quite the image.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    There are enough resources on this planet to provide a good life for everybody living on this planet. Acknowledging the super impoverished a pass is given to third world developing/emerging countries/economies. Results from these countries: billionaires. Profits have more drawing power than people. More later.