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An alternative perspective on Bernie Sanders

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    Dutch Wrote: Jared total B.S.!!!!!! Trillions did our wars cost!!!! Which did certainly not give the man on the street any benefits. Only keeps costing money ask Trump; why raise money for Veterans? Our wars will keep costing us. Social security and its cost is peanuts compare to the trillions we spent on the military ( warships costing billions, planes costing billions etc. etc.) as well our wars itself, drones, maintenance of all that junk. We are, because of our wars, still in a huge debt; not because of social things here ask anyone in West VA. You have no clue at all about "facts" Why defend our "waste"?

    I look at facts and not what I feel. Facts are irrefutable. That is why they are facts.

    I'm not defending anything, but just trying to explain to you what the facts are. I would love nothing more than to slash our military budget, but to suggest that we are trillions of dollars in debt because of our military just isn't true. I've tried to explain how our budget is divided between mandatory and discretionary spending and that mandatory spending far outweighs discretionary spending.

    You may not like that it's true, but it doesn't make it not true.

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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Dutch Wrote: Jared total B.S.!!!!!! Trillions did our wars cost!!!! Which did certainly not give the man on the street any benefits. Only keeps costing money ask Trump; why raise money for Veterans? Our wars will keep costing us. Social security and its cost is peanuts compare to the trillions we spent on the military ( warships costing billions, planes costing billions etc. etc.) as well our wars itself, drones, maintenance of all that junk. We are, because of our wars, still in a huge debt; not because of social things here ask anyone in West VA. You have no clue at all about "facts" Why defend our "waste"?

    I look at facts and not what I feel. Facts are irrefutable. That is why they are facts.

    I'm not defending anything, but just trying to explain to you what the facts are. I would love nothing more than to slash our military budget, but to suggest that we are trillions of dollars in debt because of our military just isn't true. I've tried to explain how our budget is divided between mandatory and discretionary spending and that mandatory spending far outweighs discretionary spending.

    You may not like that it's true, but it doesn't make it not true.

    Sorry Jared; thus we did not spent "trillions" on all our wars "warships" F35's and other toys like, drones rockets, missiles, you name it, let alone the maintenance cost. Sure we spent only $100 on it. Keep dreaming. Mandatory or discretionary, "waste" is "waste" in both categories. What is "mandatory" anyway; ripping off "old ladies" or hospitals or the VA (which should be under "war" cost)? You can shove things under any category as you please; you should look at the whole government picture, but I guess you like to look at things at piece by piece as they learn in school here; never learn to look at the overall picture. Sorry this whole government is a "bloated" self indulgent waste bucket; "efficiency" is a dirty word.
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    Dutch Wrote: Sorry Jared; thus we did not spent "trillions" on all our wars "warships" F35's and other toys like, drones rockets, missiles, you name it, let alone the maintenance cost. Sure we spent only $100 on it. Keep dreaming. Mandatory or discretionary, "waste" is "waste" in both categories.

    I never said we only spend $100 on it; I simply said that you are vastly overstating how much the military budget is compared to the rest of the budget.

    Dutch Wrote: What is "mandatory" anyway; ripping off "old ladies" or hospitals or the VA (which should be under "war" cost)? You can shove things under any category as you please; you should look at the whole government picture, but I guess you like to look at things at piece by piece as they learn in school here; never learn to look at the overall picture. Sorry this whole government is a "bloated" self indulgent waste bucket; "efficiency" is a dirty word.

    I've already told you what categories fall into mandatory spending. We're not ripping off old ladies; we are sending them a Social Security check each month. The VA is not under war costs because that is discretionary spending and I would hope you agree that we should continue to pay for soldiers injuries even after they are done serving their country.

    No, I can not shove things under any category I please. There is a specific way the budget is funded and doled out. Just because you're angry about everything doesn't change that basic fact.

    The amount of money we spend on Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, Unemployment benefits, transportation, and other mandatory expenditures dwarfs our military budget. I know it is very (VERY) difficult for you to accept that, but that doesn't mean it's not true.

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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Dutch Wrote: Sorry Jared; thus we did not spent "trillions" on all our wars "warships" F35's and other toys like, drones rockets, missiles, you name it, let alone the maintenance cost. Sure we spent only $100 on it. Keep dreaming. Mandatory or discretionary, "waste" is "waste" in both categories.

    I never said we only spend $100 on it; I simply said that you are vastly overstating how much the military budget is compared to the rest of the budget.

    Dutch Wrote: What is "mandatory" anyway; ripping off "old ladies" or hospitals or the VA (which should be under "war" cost)? You can shove things under any category as you please; you should look at the whole government picture, but I guess you like to look at things at piece by piece as they learn in school here; never learn to look at the overall picture. Sorry this whole government is a "bloated" self indulgent waste bucket; "efficiency" is a dirty word.

    I've already told you what categories fall into mandatory spending. We're not ripping off old ladies; we are sending them a Social Security check each month. The VA is not under war costs because that is discretionary spending and I would hope you agree that we should continue to pay for soldiers injuries even after they are done serving their country.

    No, I can not shove things under any category I please. There is a specific way the budget is funded and doled out. Just because you're angry about everything doesn't change that basic fact.

    The amount of money we spend on Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, Unemployment benefits, transportation, and other mandatory expenditures dwarfs our military budget. I know it is very (VERY) difficult for you to accept that, but that doesn't mean it's not true.

    Shaking my old head; what school did you go to? It seems impossible for you to stand on both feet in the real world.

    I repeat "LOOK AT THE WHOLE PICTURE; BUDGETS MEAN NOTHING; IT IS WHAT OUR GOVERNMENT SPENDS AND FOR WHAT. THERE ARE PLENTY OF "HIDDEN" BUDGETS IN THE PENTAGON/CIA/FBI/NSA ETC. WHICH CERTAINLY YOU DON'T SEE. The total picture I get, is that the whole government here is a bloated overfed spoiled "kid" due to using "bandaids" for everything, instead of getting "efficient" Please tell me what the "budget" was and is for all our "wars" and if it was "mandatory" spending including all the billions of"money" lost somewhere.

    Again I repeat for people like you; what is the benefit for poor people to have $13 billion warships (per unit), which needs a continuing maintenance and crew for a continued cost of millions per month and then if we don't have WWIII will rust away eventually. (But this "keeps us safe, right?) How about the trillions spent on all our wars? What was the benefit for the poor, slums, disabled, infrastructure, education ( which you are lacking) etc.???????? I give up on you; sorry you are just an "one element at the time" processing person, without any broad view on anything at all and its overall consequences. Amen.

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    "We're not ripping off old ladies; we are sending them a Social Security check each month. " says jared.

    Terribly ripping off old ladies when a SS check is not enough money to take care of needs. And that check is continually attacked. And on the other hand I was stationed on a brand new LCU been in service 2 months that was sent for a total overall rebuild because all the old LCU's were deployed. This brand new multi million dollar boat was sent to be rebuilt because if the Unit did not use the yearly budgeted money it would lose the amount not used on the next year's budget. If you can't see the difference in impoverishing old ladies and wasting beyond belief in the military then you will never understand social responsibility.

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    Chet Ruminski Wrote:

    "We're not ripping off old ladies; we are sending them a Social Security check each month. " says jared.

    Terribly ripping off old ladies when a SS check is not enough money to take care of needs. And that check is continually attacked. And on the other hand I was stationed on a brand new LCU been in service 2 months that was sent for a total overall rebuild because all the old LCU's were deployed. This brand new multi million dollar boat was sent to be rebuilt because if the Unit did not use the yearly budgeted money it would lose the amount not used on the next year's budget. If you can't see the difference in impoverishing old ladies and wasting beyond belief in the military then you will never understand social responsibility.

    Chet the problem with Jared is, that he only looks at "paper" what is written, but seldom looks around him and check that people do other things than just what is "written". Our government has the so called "checks" and "balances" however these get manipulated and corrupted in a huge way because all the clever crooks in this country worked their way into the government and use this as an heaven for expanding corruption. Because this country is huge then an government gets huge as well and becomes an elephant in the room which is no longer controllable with clear accounting. None of their "books" are "up to date" let alone correct. Everyone here who contracts with the government, screws the government, because that is the "fashion" here. Contracts mean nothing; look at the F35 contract price $200 million a piece; delivery price $400 million a piece. Here in FL they did stop an road project, because there was no money left to finish it. etc. etc.
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    Chet Ruminski Wrote: Terribly ripping off old ladies when a SS check is not enough money to take care of needs. And that check is continually attacked.

    Whether or not it's enough money is an entirely different discussion and one that you and I would likely agree on, but that's not what we're talking about here.

    Chet Ruminski Wrote: And on the other hand I was stationed on a brand new LCU been in service 2 months that was sent for a total overall rebuild because all the old LCU's were deployed. This brand new multi million dollar boat was sent to be rebuilt because if the Unit did not use the yearly budgeted money it would lose the amount not used on the next year's budget. If you can't see the difference in impoverishing old ladies and wasting beyond belief in the military then you will never understand social responsibility.

    I can absolutely see the wasting beyond belief in the military and I would love nothing more than to see our military budget slashed considerably. Never once did I advocate to keep the military budget artificially high.

    All I am pointing out is that far too many people vastly overestimate the percentage of our budget that is doled out to the military. Me pointing out that FACT isn't the same thing as being a militaristic flag waiving idiot who loves war and wants to see old ladies starve on the streets.

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    Dutch Wrote: Chet the problem with Jared is, that he only looks at "paper" what is written, but seldom looks around him and check that people do other things than just what is "written".
    And the problem with you is that you make uneducated assumptions about anyone who has the audacity to disagree with anything you say.
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Dutch Wrote: Chet the problem with Jared is, that he only looks at "paper" what is written, but seldom looks around him and check that people do other things than just what is "written".
    And the problem with you is that you make uneducated assumptions about anyone who has the audacity to disagree with anything you say.

    Jared; thanks until now you have only "school bench" knowledge; just wait till you get my age then you will think differently about the world. Hopefully you start an job in Europe, Asia, Africa etc. even better in Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, Somalia (not via the army please) and learn a few things. Write me back once you hit 75. I've got probably a lot more education than you, and can even fix Trumps plane if needed, with its "imported" Rolls Royce engines, but I don't know anything about the Oregon "health care" nursing job like you have. Ha ha.

    Anyway this is an discussion site; so don't feel like you're attacked, but learn to look at an overall picture of the world and the US position in it. You should wake up related to our foreign policies, which "stink" and bite us in the butt continuously. Look at both candidates Hillary nor Trump; neither one actually knows what to do "after" we ever finish our "wars". My guess is, only create new one's instead of rebuilding, feeding etc. the countries we ruined (but have no money for that), but instead continue irritating other countries who don't "march" to our liking. Our attitude by wanting to "control" the world as an "policeman" will backfire, without any doubt. Down here it is time to clean up this whole government; it has become an unworkable "giant" without "proper/honest" oversight. It is always via the lobby system; "what is in it for me" and what do I have to do in return for the "bribery" I received. Do me a favor and see the things the way they are; statistics never show what is "behind" these and what is "hidden". Ever heard of "cooking" the "books"?

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    Well said Dutch!
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    I entirely disagree. Too many complain about everything and offer no ideas of better solutions. Closed minded individuals is all you are. Well have faith. Your VT 76'er will deliver you to the promised land. Then all will be good. That is sarcasm if it wasn't obvious. Grit your teeth tightly until 2020. Maybe BS will run again then. Maybe by then they'll find that folder with the tax returns

    Boy, if only the rest of the world was as smart as Netherlands. If I say if you don't like it - leave.... pr will get his all upset. At this point though...... you (Holland) are the xxxxxxx who complains about the food (all of it), the decor, the staff, and the place is fithy. But you come back to the same damned diner every morning. If you don't like it, eat elsewhere.

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    -ok - I have been reading without logging in, it is a bad habit of mine, sorry, I joined a while ago. I also need your patience with my typing, I will try to fix everything , but I don't always find the errors - long story.

    I need to mention something from the first page and it is very important -

    Please PLEASE do not say that social security is paid for with our tax dollars (officially it is part of the budget but in reality is not in the part paid for by our income tax dollars or by our tariffs and fees and other income). It is and should be a separate entity. It is self sustaining, every time people let others get away with including it in the budget of general funds, well, it is a step closer to the greedy greeds getting their hands on our money to give it away to their friends or waste it on more wars - republicans and third way democrats seem to believe that wall street can invest our money more wisely - Now Hillary Clinton has not come out to say that but in the past she has talked about fixing social security in not specifics but during the Clinton presidency, Bill flirted with privatizing social security but then we had the whole impeachment and that killed that discussion. - The Pact Between Bill Clinton and Newt Gingrich - granted Clinton only wanted to privatize a percentage and also wanted to supplement Social security with the budget surplus - cough cough - something that GWB could not wait to give out to his friends - so I don't see that happening with any frequency.

    Once you remove Social security and medicare over half the budget is military and the department of defense is the only department that can not pass an audit - they don't have money to pay soldier enough so that their families get food stamps, but have plenty to spend trillions for that plane that does not fly and probably will never fly but some congress men gets fun vacation trips from the company and so we waste and can't fix roads and can't give scholarships.

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    TJ Wrote:

    I entirely disagree. Too many complain about everything and offer no ideas of better solutions. Closed minded individuals is all you are. Well have faith. Your VT 76'er will deliver you to the promised land. Then all will be good. That is sarcasm if it wasn't obvious. Grit your teeth tightly until 2020. Maybe BS will run again then. Maybe by then they'll find that folder with the tax returns

    Boy, if only the rest of the world was as smart as Netherlands. If I say if you don't like it - leave.... pr will get his all upset. At this point though...... you (Holland) are the ass wipe who complains about the food (all of it), the decor, the staff, and the place is fithy. But you come back to the same damned diner every morning. If you don't like it, eat elsewhere.

    Thanks Tony; I appreciate your comment; but yeah put the blinders on and wave your flag. Success. I gave plenty of solutions but an mindset like yours is not helping to fix this country. Watch out that you don't choke in your "fat" hamburger and kill yourself with the healthy FL drinking water as polluted by your great Mr. Scott.; or may be get run over by a non existing high speed train or swamp buggy. Living in FL then you should know better; you act like an real Republican patriot; keep it up!!!
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    And know this about the military budget. When several companies compete to offer a new fighter jet to be put in service, the government pays the competing companies to build the prototypes. The winner gets continued money to work out problems during development. This provides jobs with government money but a more useful return on investment would be to just pick one contractor and start developing. There can be no doubt that any of the possible competing contractors could produce a successful jet.
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    sanders speaks well. so does clinton to a degree. insulting either is counter-productive and i would say that the two of them insulting each other is counter-productive. sanders problem lies in a people and a congress who will in the end not support his programs when the rubber meets the road meaning when they might actually have to be inconvenienced in some manner.

    as for the system or the establishment these are words which serve only to muddy the waters.

    as kevin phillips noted in "american theocracy" this country made the conscious decision to shift from manufacturing to service with the f.i.r.e. sector leading the way. this is NOT the same as saying we suddenly became an economy focused on consumption. that is nonsense. ALL economies focus on and require consumption. products manufactured have to be consumed somewhere whether domestically or not. the problem lies in that the jobs that created the middle class, manufacturing and generally unionized or impacted positively by unions, have vanished due to either technology or the results of financialization.

    i would posit that the concept of the most powerful nation in the world which means militarily and economically derives from circumstances which those holding political power took advantage of. as particular nations waned others waxed. the u.s. waxed while the british empire waned. at the end of ww1 the british empire basically was a hollow shell. ww2 finished it off and the u.s. through their economic policies instituted after the founding of the republic were able to truly establish the country as the economic power in the world. the bulk of the west's economies were train wrecks and of course the u.s. was the leading oil producer which also heavily impacted the rise of the economy. so the u.s. stood astride the world. a combination of time, circumstances, willful blindness, arrogance and financialization has altered the makeup of the u.s. political economy. we must note that for all of the bleating of social issues no one wants to change the underlying system with the possible exception of sanders. the reason is that the "system" or the "establishment" ARE the u.s. political economy. and the overwhelming vast majority of people either do not want the upheaval which will naturally occur should the system be altered or they believe trump saying he will "bring those jobs back." newsflash, those jobs aren't coming back. that genie is out of the phucquing bottle. so-called creative destruction which is simply a statement based upon the observation that new technologies supplant old ones does not create the mass jobs that previous creative destruction did. until the so-called service economy starts to pay wages similar to the manufacturing economy of the post-ww2 era we will not see the middle class revitalized. but what do we see? the right and far too many "middle class' people bashing unions, bashing teachers and so on. cutting their own throats due to being temporarily embarrassed millionaires. cognitive dissonance reigns supreme in this country. don't look for the millennial or some other meme named group to come to the rescue of the political economy. it ain't happening.

    so the bottom line out of all of this is we are reduced to issues such as the scotus which while important in their way are merely the sideshow to the greater problem. sanders lacks for overall support due to most americans being loaded with inertia and like people everywhere afraid of change and clinton simply does not have it in her to affect the change required or lead the people to the change required. and republicans? they are almost a different species of primate.