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The future of Iraq/Syria

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  • Dutch
    2015-12-28 09:01:56 AM
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    Fareed had a great program on Sunday on CNN. He said : An Iraq nor Syria really exists anymore; The borders drawn after the first WW are long gone. That area will become a kind of no-mans land; desolate and destroyed to its core.

    All of this is caused by our stupid foreign policies, by invading a country without any thinking of the consequences. Just run in there throw bombs and leave without setting up a structure or a plan for rebuilding/governing a country, like Bush and also Obama forgot. The total stupidity of the US was that they dissolved the whole existing Government structure including the Iraqi Army. However our stupid country still thinks you can rule the world just with bombs and money. Now it will bite back in a huge way. Congratulations America!!

  • Dutch
    2015-12-29 08:48:22 AM
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    I like to add, that whoever becomes the new President, he or she will be faced with the same dilemma; since the White House advisors are just pure "military" schooled but not educated in nation building. So we will keep making the same mistake over and over again until it will become our "Rome"

    Neither Hillary, Trump or Cruz have the knowledge to manage/rebuilt any country which we ruined to the core. They are only talking about expanding the military; thus continue in our old failing practice i.e.: Bomb and run; never think about the consequences.

  • TJ
    2015-12-29 02:54:58 PM
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    Whatever the future holds, we'll fight to protect what's right ! That's our ability to pay for whatever happens. We'll kill the bad guys by burying them in US money. As long as there are profits to be made. We should split ISIS/ISIL and Al Quida and make a guess on which serves us better. Then fund them to eliminate the other. Wait that doesn't increase the number of dead Americans or further profits to US companies. Scrap that idea even though it would be most cost effective.
  • jaredsxtn
    2015-12-29 03:26:23 PM
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    Dutch Wrote: Fareed had a great program on Sunday on CNN. He said : An Iraq nor Syria really exists anymore; The borders drawn after the first WW are long gone. That area will become a kind of no-mans land; desolate and destroyed to its core.

    Fareed is by far my favorite major news commentator. I wish there were 100 more journalists on national television that were like him.

    And I agree with his point of view. The partitioning of the Ottoman Empire to the European Powers, specifically France and Great Britain, carved up borders liked a jigsaw puzzle. Freedom movements popped up almost immediately after these two countries came in and all of a sudden the region was thrown into a constant state of instability.

    Dutch Wrote: All of this is caused by our stupid foreign policies, by invading a country without any thinking of the consequences. Just run in there throw bombs and leave without setting up a structure or a plan for rebuilding/governing a country, like Bush and also Obama forgot. The total stupidity of the US was that they dissolved the whole existing Government structure including the Iraqi Army. However our stupid country still thinks you can rule the world just with bombs and money. Now it will bite back in a huge way. Congratulations America!!

    Our "stupid" foreign policy had nothing to do with the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire and European dominance over the land for the next forty years. It also had nothing to do with the schism between Sunni and Shi'a Islam.

    What's going on today, while partly America's fault, was brewing long before we ever put one American boot on the ground in the Middle East. The Sunni-Shi'a disagreement, if I can use that word, has been going on since the Prophet Mohammed died in 632 AD.

    Shi'a Muslims who live in Sunni governed countries are marginalized and are typically the poorest members of society. On the other hand, Sunni Muslims who live in Shi'a governed countries are marginalized and are typically the poorest members of society. ISIS is a sect of Sunni's who follow Wahhabism; Iran is a Shi'a majority country that is fighting ISIS.

    What's going on in that part of the world is far more complicated than just saying that it's Americas fault. This is a fight that's been brewing for centuries. It's almost a carbon copy of the European Wars of religion that ravaged that continent for 120 years. Let's hope the Muslims can figure out a way to find peace between the factions faster than that.

  • Dutch
    2015-12-29 07:53:03 PM
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Dutch Wrote: Fareed had a great program on Sunday on CNN. He said : An Iraq nor Syria really exists anymore; The borders drawn after the first WW are long gone. That area will become a kind of no-mans land; desolate and destroyed to its core.

    Fareed is by far my favorite major news commentator. I wish there were 100 more journalists on national television that were like him.

    And I agree with his point of view. The partitioning of the Ottoman Empire to the European Powers, specifically France and Great Britain, carved up borders liked a jigsaw puzzle. Freedom movements popped up almost immediately after these two countries came in and all of a sudden the region was thrown into a constant state of instability.

    Dutch Wrote: All of this is caused by our stupid foreign policies, by invading a country without any thinking of the consequences. Just run in there throw bombs and leave without setting up a structure or a plan for rebuilding/governing a country, like Bush and also Obama forgot. The total stupidity of the US was that they dissolved the whole existing Government structure including the Iraqi Army. However our stupid country still thinks you can rule the world just with bombs and money. Now it will bite back in a huge way. Congratulations America!!

    Our "stupid" foreign policy had nothing to do with the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire and European dominance over the land for the next forty years. It also had nothing to do with the schism between Sunni and Shi'a Islam.

    What's going on today, while partly America's fault, was brewing long before we ever put one American boot on the ground in the Middle East. The Sunni-Shi'a disagreement, if I can use that word, has been going on since the Prophet Mohammed died in 632 AD.

    Shi'a Muslims who live in Sunni governed countries are marginalized and are typically the poorest members of society. On the other hand, Sunni Muslims who live in Shi'a governed countries are marginalized and are typically the poorest members of society. ISIS is a sect of Sunni's who follow Wahhabism; Iran is a Shi'a majority country that is fighting ISIS.

    What's going on in that part of the world is far more complicated than just saying that it's Americas fault. This is a fight that's been brewing for centuries. It's almost a carbon copy of the European Wars of religion that ravaged that continent for 120 years. Let's hope the Muslims can figure out a way to find peace between the factions faster than that.

    No Jared; I agree with Fareed, that indeed we went in there without any plan whatsoever what we would do after Hussain was gone; Bush put Bremer (who's experience was only a short time as Ambassador in the Netherlands) in charge who did not have any clue about "nation building" he dismantled everything which caused the total collapse of the infrastructure set up by Hussain, So don't get me mad by backtracking and blaming the Europeans etc. No the big blame is our own, by having dumb asses just go in there without any plan to rebuilt that nation after we killed more than a hundred thousand people there. It was a pure revenge show which did cost us double the number of lives than 9/11. Don't defend stupidity please.
  • lonely bird
    2015-12-30 12:06:17 AM
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    Iraq never did exist. There was no commonality to the Shia, Sunni and Kurds. But it suited the so-called great powers after ww1 to draw maps as they pleased. Stating that the problems existed prior to the ham-fisted stupidity of the pnac and bush administrations does not excuse the bush administrations. As for nation-building by outside forces it cannot be done. Yes, Bremer phucqued up by the disbanding of the Iraqi military and the de-baathification policy but even if that had not been done there would still have been chaos. People must build their own societies and the governments which preside over those societies. Attempts by outside agencies to turn those processes to the agencies' interests must of necessity fail.

    Political economies can be established for the benefit of all or a few. As we see in this country despite "democracy" the political economy benefits the few instead of the many. By attempting to put in place a "free market" political economy in Iraq modeled on the u.s. what did we think would be the results? Unicorns farting rainbows?

  • Dutch
    2015-12-30 08:16:49 AM
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    lonely bird Wrote:

    Iraq never did exist. There was no commonality to the Shia, Sunni and Kurds. But it suited the so-called great powers after ww1 to draw maps as they pleased. Stating that the problems existed prior to the ham-fisted stupidity of the pnac and bush administrations does not excuse the bush administrations. As for nation-building by outside forces it cannot be done. Yes, Bremer phucqued up by the disbanding of the Iraqi military and the de-baathification policy but even if that had not been done there would still have been chaos. People must build their own societies and the governments which preside over those societies. Attempts by outside agencies to turn those processes to the agencies' interests must of necessity.

    Political economies can be established for the benefit of all or a few. As we see in this country despite "democracy" the political economy benefits the few instead of the many. By attempting to put in place a "free market" political economy in Iraq modeled on the u.s. what did we think would be the results? Unicorns farting rainbows?

    Yes lonely exactly what I meant. Thanks.
  • jaredsxtn
    2015-12-30 05:55:58 PM
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    Dutch Wrote: No Jared; I agree with Fareed, that indeed we went in there without any plan whatsoever what we would do after Hussain was gone; Bush put Bremer (who's experience was only a short time as Ambassador in the Netherlands) in charge who did not have any clue about "nation building" he dismantled everything which caused the total collapse of the infrastructure set up by Hussain,

    I never once suggested the invasion of Iraq was a good thing; I suggested it isn't the only reason the Middle East is unstable.

    Dutch Wrote: So don't get me mad by backtracking and blaming the Europeans etc. No the big blame is our own, by having dumb asses just go in there without any plan to rebuilt that nation after we killed more than a hundred thousand people there.

    You have to be kidding.

    Who exactly split up the Ottoman Empire after the first World War? Who occupied those lands and carved up countries like they were pieces of a jigsaw puzzle? The Treaty of London and the Treaty of Sèvres were signed by all of the Allied Powers and that ushered in the European domination of the Middle-East for the next half century.

    These two treaties also helped bring about the Zionist movement in Palestine. The Balfour Declaration, which was the official British position declaring that Palestine should be the home of the Jewish people, laid the groundwork for the eventual Jewish state. Then the British mandate over Palestine ended on May 14, 1948 and 'poof,' the Palestinians no longer have a homeland.

    So spare me the "this is all America's fault" nonsense. What's going on in the Middle-East is a hell of a lot more complicated than blaming America for everything.

    Dutch Wrote: It was a pure revenge show which did cost us double the number of lives than 9/11. Don't defend stupidity please.

    I agree that Iraq was pure revenge.

    And I'm not defending stupidity. I have lost friends, both physically (because they died) and mentally (because they lost their minds), who fought in Iraq and Afghanistan. So please don't accuse me of sticking up for the Bush Administrations ill conceived wars that wasted our national treasure and prestige in the world.

    All I'm saying is that the conflicts raging throughout the Middle-East are a hell of a lot more complicated than just saying it's all Americas fault.

  • Dutch
    2015-12-31 08:54:09 AM
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Dutch Wrote: No Jared; I agree with Fareed, that indeed we went in there without any plan whatsoever what we would do after Hussain was gone; Bush put Bremer (who's experience was only a short time as Ambassador in the Netherlands) in charge who did not have any clue about "nation building" he dismantled everything which caused the total collapse of the infrastructure set up by Hussain,

    I never once suggested the invasion of Iraq was a good thing; I suggested it isn't the only reason the Middle East is unstable.

    Dutch Wrote: So don't get me mad by backtracking and blaming the Europeans etc. No the big blame is our own, by having dumb asses just go in there without any plan to rebuilt that nation after we killed more than a hundred thousand people there.

    You have to be kidding.

    Who exactly split up the Ottoman Empire after the first World War? Who occupied those lands and carved up countries like they were pieces of a jigsaw puzzle? The Treaty of London and the Treaty of Sèvres were signed by all of the Allied Powers and that ushered in the European domination of the Middle-East for the next half century.

    These two treaties also helped bring about the Zionist movement in Palestine. The Balfour Declaration, which was the official British position declaring that Palestine should be the home of the Jewish people, laid the groundwork for the eventual Jewish state. Then the British mandate over Palestine ended on May 14, 1948 and 'poof,' the Palestinians no longer have a homeland.

    So spare me the "this is all America's fault" nonsense. What's going on in the Middle-East is a hell of a lot more complicated than blaming America for everything.

    Dutch Wrote: It was a pure revenge show which did cost us double the number of lives than 9/11. Don't defend stupidity please.

    I agree that Iraq was pure revenge.

    And I'm not defending stupidity. I have lost friends, both physically (because they died) and mentally (because they lost their minds), who fought in Iraq and Afghanistan. So please don't accuse me of sticking up for the Bush Administrations ill conceived wars that wasted our national treasure and prestige in the world.

    All I'm saying is that the conflicts raging throughout the Middle-East are a hell of a lot more complicated than just saying it's all Americas fault.

    Jared; your reply on blaming the Europeans; indeed you must be kidding. Guess who had the biggest influence on the establishment of the Jewish State? Of course the rich Jewish Americans; because there were not that many Jews left in Europe after Hitler and we were the hero's who finally had won the only war ever. So I repeat that indeed the US is mostly to blame. Of course the Brits and French screwed up on carving up those countries after WWI; but we are not talking about "borders" but an "invasion" without "cause" by the US, which destabilized the whole region. Sure I keep blaming the US for the present situation. May be Hussain was a dictator, but he had at least some control and a functioning government; all we wanted (ask Trump) to steal their oil. The hell with the people or borders!! Anyway it made the war industry rich here and created a few more billionaires. Now happy?
  • jaredsxtn
    2015-12-31 04:22:23 PM
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    Dutch Wrote: Jared; your reply on blaming the Europeans; indeed you must be kidding.

    No, I'm not kidding.

    And I didn't blame the Europeans for everything; I attempted to explain that it's not as simple as saying that American foreign policy is the only reason the Middle-East is in flames.

    Dutch Wrote: Guess who had the biggest influence on the establishment of the Jewish State? Of course the rich Jewish Americans; because there were not that many Jews left in Europe after Hitler and we were the hero's who finally had won the only war ever. So I repeat that indeed the US is mostly to blame.

    This just isn't true.

    There were hundreds of thousands of Jewish people living in British occupied Palestine before their mandate ended and the Jewish state was born. To suggest otherwise shows that you have a blatant disregard of world history.

    Dutch Wrote: Of course the Brits and French screwed up on carving up those countries after WWI; but we are not talking about "borders" but an "invasion" without "cause" by the US, which destabilized the whole region. Sure I keep blaming the US for the present situation. May be Hussain was a dictator, but he had at least some control and a functioning government; all we wanted (ask Trump) to steal their oil. The hell with the people or borders!!

    Once again, I'm not justifying the Iraq war. I fully understand that the disastrous decision to invade a country that did absolutely nothing to us was a mistake our country may never recover from.

    What I'm trying to get across is that the fight between Sunni and Shi'a Muslims currently going on has been centuries in the making. The Bush Administration made the terrible mistake of pouring gasoline onto that brewing fire, but it's not like this fight between the two main sects of Islam would have never happened if Bush never invaded Iraq.

    Dutch Wrote: Anyway it made the war industry rich here and created a few more billionaires. Now happy?

    I agree. And no, I'm not happy.

  • Dutch
    2015-12-31 06:12:58 PM
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    Dutch Wrote:
    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Dutch Wrote: No Jared; I agree with Fareed, that indeed we went in there without any plan whatsoever what we would do after Hussain was gone; Bush put Bremer (who's experience was only a short time as Ambassador in the Netherlands) in charge who did not have any clue about "nation building" he dismantled everything which caused the total collapse of the infrastructure set up by Hussain,

    I never once suggested the invasion of Iraq was a good thing; I suggested it isn't the only reason the Middle East is unstable.

    Dutch Wrote: So don't get me mad by backtracking and blaming the Europeans etc. No the big blame is our own, by having dumb asses just go in there without any plan to rebuilt that nation after we killed more than a hundred thousand people there.

    You have to be kidding.

    Who exactly split up the Ottoman Empire after the first World War? Who occupied those lands and carved up countries like they were pieces of a jigsaw puzzle? The Treaty of London and the Treaty of Sèvres were signed by all of the Allied Powers and that ushered in the European domination of the Middle-East for the next half century.

    These two treaties also helped bring about the Zionist movement in Palestine. The Balfour Declaration, which was the official British position declaring that Palestine should be the home of the Jewish people, laid the groundwork for the eventual Jewish state. Then the British mandate over Palestine ended on May 14, 1948 and 'poof,' the Palestinians no longer have a homeland.

    So spare me the "this is all America's fault" nonsense. What's going on in the Middle-East is a hell of a lot more complicated than blaming America for everything.

    Dutch Wrote: It was a pure revenge show which did cost us double the number of lives than 9/11. Don't defend stupidity please.

    I agree that Iraq was pure revenge.

    And I'm not defending stupidity. I have lost friends, both physically (because they died) and mentally (because they lost their minds), who fought in Iraq and Afghanistan. So please don't accuse me of sticking up for the Bush Administrations ill conceived wars that wasted our national treasure and prestige in the world.

    All I'm saying is that the conflicts raging throughout the Middle-East are a hell of a lot more complicated than just saying it's all Americas fault.

    Jared; your reply on blaming the Europeans; indeed you must be kidding. Guess who had the biggest influence on the establishment of the Jewish State? Of course the rich Jewish Americans; because there were not that many Jews left in Europe after Hitler and we were the hero's who finally had won the only war ever. So I repeat that indeed the US is mostly to blame. Of course the Brits and French screwed up on carving up those countries after WWI; but we are not talking about "borders" but an "invasion" without "cause" by the US, which destabilized the whole region. Sure I keep blaming the US for the present situation. May be Hussain was a dictator, but he had at least some control and a functioning government; all we wanted (ask Trump) to steal their oil. The hell with the people or borders!! Anyway it made the war industry rich here and created a few more billionaires. Now happy?
    Jared the only thing I can say; you look at it as an real flag waving American. That's all. Sorry if we would never have meddled in the middle east or wanted their oil or would have had different foreign policies even before 9/11, then the middle east would have been quiet. We were "meddling" in everything far before 9/11, which caused 9/11 etc. etc. I've seen that with my own eyes; look at our history on how we got "rich" via their resources etc. Yankee's behave as arrogant hypocrites outside this country; sorry to say so.
  • TJ
    2015-12-31 07:20:07 PM
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    And yet you packed up and moved here ??????
  • iolo
    2016-01-01 08:36:21 AM
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    It seems to me that we have so totally destroyed any 'reasonable' Sunni forces that neither of these countries has any future whatever.
  • Dutch
    2016-01-01 08:51:37 AM
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    TJ Wrote: And yet you packed up and moved here ??????
    Yes Tony; I'll move immediately once Trump is elected; I know a nice place where they don't bomb you.
  • Dutch
    2016-01-01 08:56:33 AM
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    iolo Wrote: It seems to me that we have so totally destroyed any 'reasonable' Sunni forces that neither of these countries has any future whatever.
    Yes I don't see any future there, unless the oil prices skyrocket again; I just wonder who or what will be done to rebuilt, if that area consist of all kind of factions which can't get along. No one wants to invest in something which gives no return on investment or becomes an credit risk. Unless the rich Arabic countries foot the bill; they may want the control over the oil.
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