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Is America Rich?

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  • Democrat
    Missouri
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    I read today an article on MSN Money on a subject of the top 10 nations holding the most gold. I was not privy to who the top was and figured maybe China or Russia, but they do not come close to America's holdings of precious gold. The second richest gold nation is Germany with a little more than 3000 tons of gold. Than comes the United States where "We the People", if that works, have over 8,100 TONs of that precious gold in first place. Now is all that gold in Fort Knox? I don't know, but I'm interested in finding out where America holds that gold. Being first place in the world with that much gold must mean something as to why America is economically better off than most all nations. Yea, America has debt and a lot of it, but many economists say our debt is manageable. I still believe we need to whittle down that debt to something way less than 20 Trillion, even though more than half of that debt is owed to ourselves.

    Let's figure that gold. Since 32,000ozs equals 1 ton and America has more than 8100 tons, that makes 259,200,000ozs. If gold sells for around $1000 per ounce that makes $259,200,000,000. This is way short of a trillion to my disappointment, but if gold ever sky rockets to more than $1000/Oz, should we sell and whittle down the debt? Don't think so, which I am for hoarding the gold to make the dollar with our Nation's GNP continue making America a rich nation.

    That's one hell of a tonnage of gold to make anyone skip all the way to the Wizard of OZ with Toto.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    America went off the gold standard in 1933.

    Paper money and digital currency now determines wealth, for better or worse.

  • Democrat
    Missouri
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    So.................why hoard the gold????????????????

    Your statement doesn't make sense when America is identified as having so much more gold than any other nation on earth. Typical of a response not providing credible explanation. So what that the dollar doesn't rate to the gold standard, big deal. But there must be some economic sense as to why America holds onto that much gold.

    Please explain yourself. Must be for paying off the aliens approaching our planet, a valued commodity to barter for boxes of cheesy fish crackers, or maybe American citizens need gold teeth for a glorious smile. Whatever, there must be a reason and to relate to the dollar makes no sense. What I did summarize was the amount of gold America has and with the dollar as strong as it is with our GNP strengths, America is rich. No place did I submit the relevance of a dollar backed up by a gold standard, that was all by you, Jared.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    AmcmurryFreedom Wrote:

    So.................why hoard the gold????????????????

    Your statement doesn't make sense when America is identified as having so much more gold than any other nation on earth. Typical of a response not providing credible explanation. So what that the dollar doesn't rate to the gold standard, big deal. But there must be some economic sense as to why America holds onto that much gold.

    Please explain yourself. Must be for paying off the aliens approaching our planet, a valued commodity to barter for boxes of cheesy fish crackers, or maybe American citizens need gold teeth for a glorious smile. Whatever, there must be a reason and to relate to the dollar makes no sense. What I did summarize was the amount of gold America has and with the dollar as strong as it is with our GNP strengths, America is rich. No place did I submit the relevance of a dollar backed up by a gold standard, that was all by you, Jared.

    I doubt if this country is rich; just ask your fellow veterans, of which about 50,000 sleep on the street. yes only the 1% is filthy rich including your friend Trump. Gold standards don't count; only our trillions of debt, thanks to our useless wars since WWII do count; we did not get anything back for that money; only the war industry benefitted, not the one's without arms or legs. Don't forget that in Europe during WWII you could not get even one potato for a gold watch; thus gold is worthless if you don't have anything to eat.

    Mentally speaking is this the poorest country in the world; we only care for ourselves and money; peace on earth and food on the table for every living thing is not important, only our greed and ego's count as well as our fake patriotism.

  • Independent
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    One minor issue. Iirc, gold is weighed in Troy which is 12 ounces to the pound. Beyond that it doesn't really matter. Gold despite nations that hold it is useless except for engineering purposes. Well, and for looking pretty while sitting in the mud. The primary issue re: gold as a backing for currency is that said currency must be fully convertible. If it is not then the backing means nothing. This was one albeit not the only reason Bretton Woods collapsed. Iirc, the U.K. And France were requesting redemption of dollars for gold in amounts that the Nixon administration deemed potentially damaging. Thus he severed the connection between gold and the dollar allowing it to float which destroyed the system set in place at the end of ww2. The main source of "backing" for the dollar currently is denomination of oil sales in dollars.

    In addition EVERY currency including gold is a fiat currency. Gold only has value because humans decided it did. There are other elements/minerals that are more rare. In fact aluminum at one time was worth more than gold due to the tremendous energy required to refine aluminum ore. Keynes proposed an international currency used for transactions between nations but the idea was not implemented.

    as for wealth and being "rich" that depends upon your definition.

  • Democrat
    Missouri
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    So, that explanation is all in good, but still does not answer the question, "why do we hold gold in vaults, safes, or Fort Knox"? Why?

    Agreed it can no longer back the dollar. Just seeing how much our gold equates to doesn't equal the value of the amount of dollar currency around the world. So what does gold do for us? Watching TV, there's often a commercial on buying gold narrated by some well known actor. It doesn't make sense to me that gold currently is better than investing in stock markets. Although gold itself can be a stock holding, it is fools gold when capitalizing on dividends. If WWIII breaks out, I can see many a investor selling stock and buying gold and other precious metals and jewels. So, if America has over 8100 tons of the mysterious gold, what does this do for our nation?

    Maybe many a politician has a private room in Fort Knox to gaze at the gold like "eye candy" and go delirious with gold fever.

    So far, nobody has been able to answer the question on "Why do we hold gold?". Does this make America rich? I wonder if we were to negotiate a deal with China to double their gold holding and in return dismiss our debt? That definitely would be a deal maker and would still leave America in first place for tonnage in gold.

  • Liberal
    Independent
    Durham, NH
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    If BS was wealth this would be the most wealthy country in the world!
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    pr Wrote: If BS was wealth this would be the most wealthy country in the world!
    Yes; BS sells ask Trump and Cruz.
  • Democrat
    Missouri
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    Stansberry Research has an interesting article found searching on "Why hold gold".

    http://stansberryresearch.com/investor-education/Why-You-Should-Hold-Gold/

    I'm not sure about this claim and is mostly selling gold interest to investor inquiries, but a little makes sense.

    1. Gold is durable, whereas paper bills disintegrates and can be eaten by pests.

    2. Gold is divisible, where you can divide gold mass and it stills retains its value. You cannot do that with many commodities including paper and coin money. Diamonds have value due to mass, whereas if you cut a diamond it looses its value by smaller mass.

    3. Gold is convenient. This is harder to understand, but since gold is of high value, less is required to carry. In that case, a single paper money bill can be much more convenient to carry than the equivalent gold. Don't put much weight on this reason.

    4. Gold is consistent, where one's gold is the same as any others gold around the world per value. Money in nations around the world are quite different in a variety of values.

    5. Gold has value by itself (intrinsic). Paper and coin have no intrinsic value, which makes terrible money.

    I continued to search on a variety of links and did find where a future concept makes a prediction that the dollar will return gold backing its value. I have a problem with that in there is so much more dollars than gold holdings so I cannot see this happening. However, gold because it's fascination by society, may be the strongest negotiating commodity in the world.

  • Independent
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    1) gold is durable. as are platinum and silver.

    2) same as above.

    3) gold is inconvenient. you have to carry quantities. who will make change from a bar? if it is coined it is subject to debasement as was done centuries ago.

    4) gold's value is inconsistent as seen from its movement as a commodity.

    5) gold has no intrinsic value whatsoever other than for engineering, electronics and jewelry purposes. it only has value as a fiat currency because humans decided it does.

    the value of money, all money, is based, like the economy, upon psychological responses. money has value because people have confidence it has value. nation-state hoarders of gold are placing a bet that the world economy will tank. such a bet is inherently dangerous for all parties. the chaos that would ensue would not be limited in scope by national borders or by the amount of gold held by a nation-state as nation-states themselves would collapse. the rise of globalization and the inter-connectedness of mass high speed communication and transportation has resulted in an increasingly fragile and unstable world. the trend is not to stability but away as stability breeds instability.

    are the countries hoarding gold "rich"? the question means nothing. they may believe themselves rich or that they have a hedge against chaos or a weapon with which to wage economic war. they have nothing of the sort. they are simply tap-dancing close to the edge.

    and fwiw stansberry wants to sell you something be it physical gold, gold in an ira, stock in gold mining operations or some other product/service.

  • Democrat
    Missouri
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    Apparently, you do not know the words "Intrinsic", "Convenient" and "Consistent" and fail to recognize the concepts. Although, I can imagine it being difficult to change a piece of gold for smaller piece change. But the issue is rather you have a gold bar that could be several pounds or you have a gold piece at an 1oz. The mass or weight of the gold does not change its value per 1oz, whereas if you cut a diamond its value is less than a larger diamond regardless of the weight. Similarly as gold around the world has the same value determined by the gold markets, currency does not, such as rubles to dollars to yen.

    So nobody has explained why the United States has over 8,100 Tons of Gold in holding.............what is it for? Actually, I read other links that indicated the U.S. sold much of the gold it held in the 1950's. So, counting all the gold American citizens hold and adding to the U.S. Treasury holdings it must be a whole lot more than 8,100 Tons. How's that song go......16 tons what do you get, deeper in debt.......(an oldie from Tennessee Ernie Ford).

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    AmcmurryFreedom Wrote: Your statement doesn't make sense when America is identified as having so much more gold than any other nation on earth. Typical of a response not providing credible explanation. So what that the dollar doesn't rate to the gold standard, big deal. But there must be some economic sense as to why America holds onto that much gold.

    What about the fact that America went off the gold standard in 1933 is hard for you to understand? It doesn't need much further explanation than a statement of fact.

    Fort Knox, our Governments gold depository, currently has 4,176 metric tons of gold. Denver and West Point are the other two locations of the Federal Governments gold deposits. The combined value of all the gold at the three places is $291.3 billion. In contrast, the budget deal the President just signed $1.15 trillion. Put another way: $1.15 trillion is more than $291.3 billion.

    (See: Status Report of U.S. Government Gold Reserve)

    All the gold in the country wouldn't pay for 1/3 of a single years budget, let alone put a dent in our $18 trillion national debt.

    Is that a "credible" enough explanation for you?

    AmcmurryFreedom Wrote: Please explain yourself. Must be for paying off the aliens approaching our planet, a valued commodity to barter for boxes of cheesy fish crackers, or maybe American citizens need gold teeth for a glorious smile. Whatever, there must be a reason and to relate to the dollar makes no sense. What I did summarize was the amount of gold America has and with the dollar as strong as it is with our GNP strengths, America is rich.

    Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean that there must be some grand explanation for why America has the most gold in the world.

    The dollar used to be based off the gold standard. That changed in the Great Depression and we never looked back. The value of the dollar has absolutely nothing (I repeat...absolutely nothing) to do with the price of gold or how much gold is locked away at Fort Knox.

    The thesis of your first posting was suggesting that there must be a correlation between having more gold than any other country: "Being first place in the world with that much gold must mean something as to why America is economically better off than most all nations."

    I simply am trying to explain to you that this is not true. America is economically better off than other nations for a whole host of reasons, but $291.3 billion in gold deposits isn't one of them.

    AmcmurryFreedom Wrote: No place did I submit the relevance of a dollar backed up by a gold standard, that was all by you, Jared.

    I don't even know what this sentence means considering my response to your initial posting was two sentences long and explained that paper and digital currency now determine the wealth of countries, not gold.

    When it all comes down to it--you were suggesting a correlation between America's gold reserves and our national wealth and I simply called bullshit. I'm sorry if your feelings were hurt.

  • Democrat
    Missouri
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    My first post starting the thread identified an MSN Money article that showed U.S. being first with over 8,100 tons of gold and second was Germany with over 3,000 tons, than came other nations in the world for the subject line of the article "The top ten nations that hold gold". Here's the article on USA Today:

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/03/22/wall-st-cheat-sheet-nations-gold/6709493/

    Than on 12/22 and 12/23 I posted exactly what Jared indicates. So, I don't get the traffic pileup here and just don't feel like it is necessary to get into some sandbox fight over the little GI Joe truck. I have always known that the dollar is not backed by the gold standard............that's a non-issue. I even explained if it was backing up the dollar, 8,100 tons of gold is far from backing up the dollar amount in America and around the world. So, that is a non-issue. I just don't get Jared's mental strain on this discussion. I did offer a Stansberry Research article explaining why gold is held, which I found interesting, but was really for attracting investors.

    I have been asking for the answer to the question, "Why does America hold over 8,100 tones of gold?", which was identified in the MSN Money article. Ok, Jared you can have the GI-Joe truck, I'm going to play in someone else's sandbox. If you can't answer the question than admit it, that's OK. We don't have all the answers.

  • Independent
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    AmcmurryFreedom Wrote:

    Apparently, you do not know the words "Intrinsic", "Convenient" and "Consistent" and fail to recognize the concepts. Although, I can imagine it being difficult to change a piece of gold for smaller piece change. But the issue is rather you have a gold bar that could be several pounds or you have a gold piece at an 1oz. The mass or weight of the gold does not change its value per 1oz, whereas if you cut a diamond its value is less than a larger diamond regardless of the weight. Similarly as gold around the world has the same value determined by the gold markets, currency does not, such as rubles to dollars to yen.

    So nobody has explained why the United States has over 8,100 Tons of Gold in holding.............what is it for? Actually, I read other links that indicated the U.S. sold much of the gold it held in the 1950's. So, counting all the gold American citizens hold and adding to the U.S. Treasury holdings it must be a whole lot more than 8,100 Tons. How's that song go......16 tons what do you get, deeper in debt.......(an oldie from Tennessee Ernie Ford).

    sigh, and neither do you. every phucquing metal has consistent worth. 1 ounce of platinum has the same worth in terms of percentages as 1/2 ounce of platinum. it is simply worth 50% less than 1 ounce but the COST or VALUE per ounce is unchanged. the same applies to zinc, copper, aluminum etc. convenient is irrelevant since gold ore from the ground can contain impurities whereas gold bars and gold coins PRESUMABLY do not. of course you are accepting a statement that said bars and coins are "X"% pure. yet by making that assumption you are making a bet. if the bar has been adulterated or the coin debased the amount of gold changes and the value of that bar and coin change correspondingly. yes, the price of an ounce of gold didn't change but that is irrelevant when trying to inject the gold into the economy by making purchases. furthermore the price of gold per ounce is not fixed so it is not "consistent." your and stansberry's stupidly simplistic concept of consistent means nothing in the real world because gold is a commodity subject to fluctuations based upon speculation and other events.

    now as for intrinsic which means "essential, belonging naturally." i guess you have again failed to understand the lack of any relationship between gold and intrinsic value when applied to money/currency/worth. gold has no intrinsic value. it has no intrinsic worth as currency or money. its value as money or currency arrises for human decisions that it is so. the only value it truly has since appearance doesn't supply you with food or water is from an engineering standpoint. its value as money is fiat. fiat - "it shall be" is applied to paper or electronic currency because a government has decided that it is money. further research of the definition of fiat currency is one that is not backed by a physical commodity. yet the same thing applies to a physical commodity. and most especially to gold. naturally currency cannot be backed by a commodity such as food yet that commodity truly has worth as humans need food to survive. humans do not need gold to survive.

    i provided you with reasons why other countries are stockpiling gold. the reasons for the u.s. are the same. and the actions that would result in having to use that gold other than for sitting around apply to the u.s as well. it will mean nothing but humans BELIEVE it will. and when the chaos comes, should it come, it will show their belief to be misplaced. those who control those things which humans need to survive will have power over those who hold gold. gold is not an inflation hedge. since certain things are needed to live those who hold those things can raise "prices" so that the fiat currency called gold becomes worthless.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    lonely bird Wrote:
    AmcmurryFreedom Wrote:

    Apparently, you do not know the words "Intrinsic", "Convenient" and "Consistent" and fail to recognize the concepts. Although, I can imagine it being difficult to change a piece of gold for smaller piece change. But the issue is rather you have a gold bar that could be several pounds or you have a gold piece at an 1oz. The mass or weight of the gold does not change its value per 1oz, whereas if you cut a diamond its value is less than a larger diamond regardless of the weight. Similarly as gold around the world has the same value determined by the gold markets, currency does not, such as rubles to dollars to yen.

    So nobody has explained why the United States has over 8,100 Tons of Gold in holding.............what is it for? Actually, I read other links that indicated the U.S. sold much of the gold it held in the 1950's. So, counting all the gold American citizens hold and adding to the U.S. Treasury holdings it must be a whole lot more than 8,100 Tons. How's that song go......16 tons what do you get, deeper in debt.......(an oldie from Tennessee Ernie Ford).

    sigh, and neither do you. every phucquing metal has consistent worth. 1 ounce of platinum has the same worth in terms of percentages as 1/2 ounce of platinum. it is simply worth 50% less than 1 ounce but the COST or VALUE per ounce is unchanged. the same applies to zinc, copper, aluminum etc. convenient is irrelevant since gold ore from the ground can contain impurities whereas gold bars and gold coins PRESUMABLY do not. of course you are accepting a statement that said bars and coins are "X"% pure. yet by making that assumption you are making a bet. if the bar has been adulterated or the coin debased the amount of gold changes and the value of that bar and coin change correspondingly. yes, the price of an ounce of gold didn't change but that is irrelevant when trying to inject the gold into the economy by making purchases. furthermore the price of gold per ounce is not fixed so it is not "consistent." your and stansberry's stupidly simplistic concept of consistent means nothing in the real world because gold is a commodity subject to fluctuations based upon speculation and other events.

    now as for intrinsic which means "essential, belonging naturally." i guess you have again failed to understand the lack of any relationship between gold and intrinsic value when applied to money/currency/worth. gold has no intrinsic value. it has no intrinsic worth as currency or money. its value as money or currency arrises for human decisions that it is so. the only value it truly has since appearance doesn't supply you with food or water is from an engineering standpoint. its value as money is fiat. fiat - "it shall be" is applied to paper or electronic currency because a government has decided that it is money. further research of the definition of fiat currency is one that is not backed by a physical commodity. yet the same thing applies to a physical commodity. and most especially to gold. naturally currency cannot be backed by a commodity such as food yet that commodity truly has worth as humans need food to survive. humans do not need gold to survive.

    i provided you with reasons why other countries are stockpiling gold. the reasons for the u.s. are the same. and the actions that would result in having to use that gold other than for sitting around apply to the u.s as well. it will mean nothing but humans BELIEVE it will. and when the chaos comes, should it come, it will show their belief to be misplaced. those who control those things which humans need to survive will have power over those who hold gold. gold is not an inflation hedge. since certain things are needed to live those who hold those things can raise "prices" so that the fiat currency called gold becomes worthless.

    I have no idea what you are trying to prove; "gold" or "money" are both "earthly"; once your dead it means nothing, neither when we blow up or destroy this globe. The banks on Mars don't accept either one.