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Russia fighter jet shot down near Turkey

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  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Yes, I knew this would happen; right now there are all kinds of bombing runs by all kind of countries and planes. This is a very serious accident because a Turkey F16 ( NATO) plane shot the Russian plane down according to the news. The argument is that it ignored warnings about Turkey border crossing by it. Right now things are getting very dangerous thanks to the US/Russia; they now also asked/forced the Dutch to aid in bombing runs with F16's. So all the "shit" the US caused has to be "cleared" by others and get as a "reward" even more refugees, because the US has somehow decided that we don't want them. What a sweethearts. Due to all the bombing in Syria everything will be just about flattened; so when you sent the refugees back they can eat "rumble" and "sand"; what a world we live in. Thanks a million Mr. Bush.

    If this continues WWIII is around the corner.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    Dutch Wrote:

    Yes, I knew this would happen; right now there are all kinds of bombing runs by all kind of countries and planes. This is a very serious accident because a Turkey F16 ( NATO) plane shot the Russian plane down according to the news. The argument is that it ignored warnings about Turkey border crossing by it. Right now things are getting very dangerous thanks to the US/Russia; they now also asked/forced the Dutch to aid in bombing runs with F16's. So all the "shit" the US caused has to be "cleared" by others and get as a "reward" even more refugees, because the US has somehow decided that we don't want them. What a sweethearts. Due to all the bombing in Syria everything will be just about flattened; so when you sent the refugees back they can eat "rumble" and "sand"; what a world we live in. Thanks a million Mr. Bush.

    If this continues WWIII is around the corner.

    We got here ecause of the fascination with death and destruction. And there is apparently no option because as a NATO member Turkey is automatocally defended by NATO.
  • Democrat
    Missouri
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    Turkey had exercised clear sovereignty of its borders and since Turkey and Russia are not good friends, they warned the Russian jet 10 times before it was shot down. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for the Russian pilot to ignore 10 warnings it was violating Turkey's airspace. Maybe the Russian pilot would have departed after the 11th warning, who knows? The reality is Russian and Turkey do not have a good relationship. As for U.S., we have excellent relations with Turkey and even have shared bases for our planes. The past aggression of Russian in Crimea and stretching the border into Ukraine are past reminders to all countries that when a Russian plane ignores warning to depart, you just might be the next Russian land grab. Turkey did what it needed to do and gave ample warnings to the Russian pilot. What is a grave concern is that I read where Turks on the ground shot and killed the pilots. Now, that was a little over-the-top, but understood by a country that has a history of shooting people crossing their border. NATO plane or not, it was a Turkish pilot and plane that exercised under orders to shoot down the Russian pilot........................an act of sovereignty. A lesson in all of this is "Can't we just get along?".
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    AmcmurryFreedom Wrote: Turkey had exercised clear sovereignty of its borders and since Turkey and Russia are not good friends, they warned the Russian jet 10 times before it was shot down. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for the Russian pilot to ignore 10 warnings it was violating Turkey's airspace. Maybe the Russian pilot would have departed after the 11th warning, who knows? The reality is Russian and Turkey do not have a good relationship. As for U.S., we have excellent relations with Turkey and even have shared bases for our planes. The past aggression of Russian in Crimea and stretching the border into Ukraine are past reminders to all countries that when a Russian plane ignores warning to depart, you just might be the next Russian land grab. Turkey did what it needed to do and gave ample warnings to the Russian pilot. What is a grave concern is that I read where Turks on the ground shot and killed the pilots. Now, that was a little over-the-top, but understood by a country that has a history of shooting people crossing their border. NATO plane or not, it was a Turkish pilot and plane that exercised under orders to shoot down the Russian pilot........................an act of sovereignty. A lesson in all of this is "Can't we just get along?".

    A typical AMC reply; it resembles like our police actions; first shoot then ask questions. Which AMC loves.

    Get real; Where is the southern border between Turkey and Syria? From above it is not a red line with illuminated dots. If you are in a fighter jet the turn circles are quite large so it is easy to cross the border at those speeds; also the pilot probably did not understand the Turkisch language either or had the wrong frequency set on his radio; so the Turkisch F16's should have guided that plane back into Syria airspace. Just about as dumb as our cops

    Plenty of Russians planes enter our airspace on a daily basis in Alaska or northern Europe airspace; we do the same in Russian airspace; but don't shoot them down; but mostly intercept them and guide them outside the 12 mile zone etc.

    Don't forget on the southern border, Turks are more etnic related to certain Syrian rebel factions then to the Turkish side; so it could have been supporters of certain rebel groups in Syria who did this, because the Russians bomb everyone, not just ISIS.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Dutch Wrote: Get real; Where is the southern border between Turkey and Syria? From above it is not a red line with illuminated dots. If you are in a fighter jet the turn circles are quite large so it is easy to cross the border at those speeds; also the pilot probably did not understand the Turkisch language either or had the wrong frequency set on his radio; so the Turkisch F16's should have guided that plane back into Syria airspace.

    The pilots flying the Russian fighter jet knew exactly where they were. The technology on those airplanes makes it impossible for them to claim ignorance. I'm not saying what Turkey did was right or wrong, but to suggest those pilots didn't know where they were defies all logic.

    Russia has consistently violated Turkish airspace and they did nothing about it. That makes Prime Minister Davutoglu look weak and unable to protect Turkish sovereignty. He had the choice of letting Russia continue to violate his countries airspace or do something about it. He chose the latter.

    This did not happen in a vacuum. Russia and Turkey are on opposite sides in this conflict. Russia wants Assad to stay; Turkey wants Assad to go. Russia has bombed groups the Turks are supporting; Turkey doesn't like that Russia bombed groups they are supporting. Russia violated Turkish airspace hundreds of times; Turkey decided they needed to show Russia that they gave them enough warnings.

    Dutch Wrote: Plenty of Russians planes enter our airspace on a daily basis in Alaska or northern Europe airspace; we do the same in Russian airspace; but don't shoot them down; but mostly intercept them and guide them outside the 12 mile zone etc.

    Those planes aren't armed with missiles and fighting in a war zone; they are surveillance planes. There is a huge difference between a surveillance plane being escorted out of territory and an armed war plane violating territory.

    Dutch Wrote: Don't forget on the southern border, Turks are more etnic related to certain Syrian rebel factions then to the Turkish side; so it could have been supporters of certain rebel groups in Syria who did this, because the Russians bomb everyone, not just ISIS.

    The Russian plane was shot down by a Turkish F-16. There is zero chance it was taken down by a surface to air missile. They can't get that high.

  • Liberal
    Independent
    Durham, NH
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    At least we give a chance to run before we shoot them in the back sixteen times.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Dutch Wrote: Get real; Where is the southern border between Turkey and Syria? From above it is not a red line with illuminated dots. If you are in a fighter jet the turn circles are quite large so it is easy to cross the border at those speeds; also the pilot probably did not understand the Turkisch language either or had the wrong frequency set on his radio; so the Turkisch F16's should have guided that plane back into Syria airspace.

    The pilots flying the Russian fighter jet knew exactly where they were. The technology on those airplanes makes it impossible for them to claim ignorance. I'm not saying what Turkey did was right or wrong, but to suggest those pilots didn't know where they were defies all logic.

    Russia has consistently violated Turkish airspace and they did nothing about it. That makes Prime Minister Davutoglu look weak and unable to protect Turkish sovereignty. He had the choice of letting Russia continue to violate his countries airspace or do something about it. He chose the latter.

    This did not happen in a vacuum. Russia and Turkey are on opposite sides in this conflict. Russia wants Assad to stay; Turkey wants Assad to go. Russia has bombed groups the Turks are supporting; Turkey doesn't like that Russia bombed groups they are supporting. Russia violated Turkish airspace hundreds of times; Turkey decided they needed to show Russia that they gave them enough warnings.

    Dutch Wrote: Plenty of Russians planes enter our airspace on a daily basis in Alaska or northern Europe airspace; we do the same in Russian airspace; but don't shoot them down; but mostly intercept them and guide them outside the 12 mile zone etc.

    Those planes aren't armed with missiles and fighting in a war zone; they are surveillance planes. There is a huge difference between a surveillance plane being escorted out of territory and an armed war plane violating territory.

    Dutch Wrote: Don't forget on the southern border, Turks are more etnic related to certain Syrian rebel factions then to the Turkish side; so it could have been supporters of certain rebel groups in Syria who did this, because the Russians bomb everyone, not just ISIS.

    The Russian plane was shot down by a Turkish F-16. There is zero chance it was taken down by a surface to air missile. They can't get that high.

    Sorry Jared; violating airspace is the same for a surveillance plane or a fighter jet; How are you going to check if it is fully loaded gunship or just a thing with wings at those altitudes? If you cross the border by your motorcycle or car you still cross the border and have the same rights. Armed or not ; the Russians did not drop any bombs or shot anything down; so what side are you on? The police or the 'black" guy? I guess you forget that stupid things like that will escalate into an even larger war. So you want that? Did you ever fly in a fighter? If you are in "action" you are very busy controlling the aircraft, especially in an close to border conflict, so it is pure logic that you are not concentrating on the border itself; compare it to an F18 with a turn circle of a kilometer at those speeds. Sorry the Russian planes as I know them, don't have all the technology as an updated F16. They are heavy and not so agile and need much more pilot attention than western planes. Regardless of all of what you wrote, the Turks are not holy either they are still very much divided themselves; they get their natural gas from Russia and about 2 million Russian tourists on their beach resorts.; so they are playing a dumb game.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Dutch Wrote: Sorry Jared; violating airspace is the same for a surveillance plane or a fighter jet; How are you going to check if it is fully loaded gunship or just a thing with wings at those altitudes?

    Very easily. They are entirely different types of planes.

    This is Russia's newest surveillance plane:

    And this is a Russian fighter jet:

    Countries can tell the size of a plane by a host of different technologies. Here's a good graphic explaining how its done:

    Graphic: How planes can be tracked

    Since the Russian plane was over land the primary radar will pick up its every move. The GPS on the plane would have warned the Russian pilots that they were nearing Turkish airspace. And the secondary radar would be able to decipher the difference between a war plane and a surveillance plane.

    Not just that, but fighter jets fly astronomically faster than a surveillance plane. It's not hard at all to tell the difference between the two.

    Dutch Wrote: If you cross the border by your motorcycle or car you still cross the border and have the same rights. Armed or not ; the Russians did not drop any bombs or shot anything down; so what side are you on? The police or the 'black" guy?

    If the Russians attempted to cross the border by motorcycle then they would have been stopped at the border. The Russians didn't drop any bombs inside of Turkey, but they were dropping bombs woefully close to Turkey and an armed Russian fighter jet violated Turkish airspace, even after being repeatedly warned to get out.

    And I'm on the side of practicality. My opinions on the Syrian war and the various nations fighting it out have nothing to do with my belief that Turkey has a right to protect it's sovereignty. If it was a spy plane then it wouldn't have been shot down. Since it was a war plane Turkey had every right to shoot it down.

    Dutch Wrote: I guess you forget that stupid things like that will escalate into an even larger war. So you want that?

    No, I don't want that. I also don't want Russia thinking they can fly their fighter jets inside of territory they aren't fighting in without permission from that government. If you give Russia an inch they think they can take a mile. They take the giving of an inch as a sign of weakness. This taught Putin that he went too far. And I know I'm right because Putin already tried to deescalate the situation by publicly saying he is not going to conduct military action against Turkey.

    Dutch Wrote: Did you ever fly in a fighter? If you are in "action" you are very busy controlling the aircraft, especially in an close to border conflict, so it is pure logic that you are not concentrating on the border itself; compare it to an F18 with a turn circle of a kilometer at those speeds. Sorry the Russian planes as I know them, don't have all the technology as an updated F16. They are heavy and not so agile and need much more pilot attention than western planes.

    Russian planes are a lot more sophisticated than you are giving them credit for. There is zero, I repeat ZERO, chance those pilots didn't know where they were.

    Dutch Wrote: Regardless of all of what you wrote, the Turks are not holy either they are still very much divided themselves; they get their natural gas from Russia and about 2 million Russian tourists on their beach resorts.; so they are playing a dumb game.

    I'm not saying that what Turkey did was smart, stupid, or anything in between. I'm saying they had a right to do it and that Russia would have done the same thing if an armed fighter jet was violating their territory.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Jared, thanks, I won't further argue with you; the point is and remains the same as our "cops" : shoot first before you ask questions; The Russian pilot stated that there was no contact at all with the Turks. Sorry it was stupid; they should have sent F16's to guide it out of the border area. This will only escalate the mess there; not improve it. Guess on how WWI started; by just killing one person in Sarajevo.
  • Democrat
    Missouri
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    During war conflicts many of these planes have the capability to shut off ACARS, and GPS and be invisible to radar. I'm not saying that this Russian incident had that capability, but I do know that there are U.S. aircraft that are invisible to radar and will not be detected until after there mission has been completed. The new U.S. aircraft coming on to the military scene are very secretive and are very capable of avoiding detection. I assume Russia and others have them too. However, in the recent incident of being shot over Turkey, it appears many countries have tracking data sufficient for a World Court intervention.

    As for the territory supposedly violated by the Russian jet, It was reported on a map that this southern portion between Turkey and Syria is disputed land. Turkey lays claim too it as well as Syria, so doesn't this sound a little like the Crimea situation? I can see Russia attempting to show this disputed land is more Syria than Turkey. Turkey on the other hand is very willing to show the Russians that this is their land and Russia is in violation of flying into it. I wouldn't put it past Putin to do another Crimea against Turkey. Of course, Assad of Syria is all for it.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    AmcmurryFreedom Wrote:

    During war conflicts many of these planes have the capability to shut off ACARS, and GPS and be invisible to radar. I'm not saying that this Russian incident had that capability, but I do know that there are U.S. aircraft that are invisible to radar and will not be detected until after there mission has been completed. The new U.S. aircraft coming on to the military scene are very secretive and are very capable of avoiding detection. I assume Russia and others have them too. However, in the recent incident of being shot over Turkey, it appears many countries have tracking data sufficient for a World Court intervention.

    As for the territory supposedly violated by the Russian jet, It was reported on a map that this southern portion between Turkey and Syria is disputed land. Turkey lays claim too it as well as Syria, so doesn't this sound a little like the Crimea situation? I can see Russia attempting to show this disputed land is more Syria than Turkey. Turkey on the other hand is very willing to show the Russians that this is their land and Russia is in violation of flying into it. I wouldn't put it past Putin to do another Crimea against Turkey. Of course, Assad of Syria is all for it.

    Again AMC, you are making sense. absolutely correct. The area is just a southwards "pointed" area; which you can overfly in 5 seconds; yes it is a disputed area. But yeah I don't think this, because of all the countries now involved with planes that this likely may repeat itself in some other place; what a mess!!