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The Kim Davis Crusade and Christian Martyrdom

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  • Liberal Democrat
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    Colorado Springs, CO
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    We have discussed somewhere in other posts the Kim Davis ongoing saga of her refusal to issue marriage licenses to gay couples saying she is acting under "God's authority". We should normally probably let this pass, but it would seem the rhetoric around her "contempt of court" ruling and her jailing is being elevated, and the media is there to capture sensational headlines. As the Associated Press reports on an organized rally of about 300 supporters outside of the Carter County Detention Center on Saturday:

    "Part revival, part political rally, a series of speakers denounced the government and the judiciary, and hailed Davis a Christian hero in a war against the godless. They waved signs that read "Kim Davis for President," ''no to sodomite perversion" and "God gives his hardest battles to his strongest soldiers."

    "She won't bow, I promise you," Davis' husband, Joe, told the crowd. "She sends her love to each and every one of you all. And this is what she said, 'All is well. Tell them to hold their head high because I am.'"

    "More fear man, they don't fear God," Matthew Trewhella, a pastor from Wisconsin, preached from the stage. "She said that she was doing this under God's authority. She is 1,000 percent correct. She is echoing what western man has said for over 1,500 years now. And that is that divine law trumps human laws."

    A man carried a sign as big as a bathtub: "Judge Bunning [appointed by George W. Bush] is an abomination," it read and pointed to a Bible passage that says, "Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent -- the Lord detests them both."

    The supporters distributed flyers: "The wicked are trying to make an example of her but God can turn it around," the flier reads. "Pray that America repents of the sin of celebrating sexual perversion and imprisoning Christian dissidents."

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    We don't know how far this will go. While Davis captures all the media attention, hundreds of County Clerks across America, including Alabama and Mississippi, are quietly complying with the law and issuing marriage licenses to gay couples. Many of these County Clerks identify as Christians, but are putting their civic duties ahead of the religious beliefs. I, for one, doubt Davis's sincerity if you consider that she is on her fourth marriage. I believe she is being used by the powerful Christian evangelical oligarchs who want to flex their muscle and make this an election year issue. It will certainly rally the Christians to get out and vote for those on the Republican ticket that are embracing Davis's stand.

  • Liberal Democrat
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    Colorado Springs, CO
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    AS Right Wing watch reports,

    Kim Davis' Lawyer Says She's Just Like A Jew Living In Nazi Germany

    "Yesterday, Davis’ attorney, Mat Staver of Liberty Counsel, appeared on “Crosstalk” to defend Davis, claiming that she is simply trying to do her job, or at least, her job as she sees it. He even likened her to a Jewish person living under Nazi rule.

    "When host Jim Schneider of VCY America asked why Davis won’t resign, he said that the county’s residents support her and “she’d probably be able to win the governor’s seat right now rather than just the clerk of Rowan County. She’s there to do a duty, a job and the job duty was changed.”

    “Does that mean that if you’re Christian, don’t apply here; if you’re a Jew, you gotta get — what happened in Nazi Germany, what happened there first, they removed the Jews from government public employment, then they stopped patronizing them in their private businesses, then they continued to stigmatize them, then they were the ‘problems,’ then they killed them,” Staver said. “The fact of the matter is, she has a right to this employment and you don’t lose your constitutional liberties just because you are employed by the government.”

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Is there money to be made here? Davis's lawyer, Matt Staver, has certainly elevated the rhetoric.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    I've never seen in my life such a circus; I always thought that this country has a "separation" between church and State. So just apply that.

    Religious freaks should never govern, like Huckabee, Cruze etc. These terrible dumb naïve people don't realize that their "book" was also written by "humans" just like the present laws. However the total indoctrination by the churches in these backward States is beyond any common sense or facts. Sure people should be able to belief what they want as long as it is not pushed onto others. Yes Jesus freaks are as bad as any dictatorship. As I said many times come with absolute proof that there is a "human" created god thing, as well that human beings are here all alone on this globe and they dictate; nothing from outer space ever has interfered or "dictated" anything on this planet.

    Total laughable in those brainless backward States.

  • Liberal Democrat
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    Colorado Springs, CO
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    I don't want to stereotype or tag all Christians with the extremist views of Kim Davis. Most Christians, I believe, would not agree with what she is doing. In searching for what denomination of Christianity she might be claiming as hers, Think Progress has an article:

    Think Progress, The Religious Beliefs Of Kim Davis, The Anti-Gay Clerk Who Refuses To Do Her Job, Explained

    "So where does Davis’ seemingly inconsistent theology come from, and how can she justify her actions using scripture? The answer begins with Apostolic Christianity, a tradition she claims to have converted to only four years ago. It’s unclear what specific worship community Davis calls home, but she is likely affiliated with one of two different traditions that nonetheless share similar beliefs on same-sex marriage and divorce — namely, Apostolic Pentecostalism (the most likely option."

    There was also speculation that she could be a member of the Apostolic Christian Church, but "several self-identified members of the Apostolic Christian Church have reached out to insist that Davis is not ACC."

    Assuming that she is indeed, Apostolic Pentecostal as Think Progress suggests, I went into what their beliefs and extracted a few paragraphs:

    Apostolic Pentecostal Beliefs!

    CONSCIENTIOUS SCRUPLES

    We recognize the institution of human government as being of divine ordination, and, in so doing, affirm unswerving loyalty to our Government; however, we take a definite position regarding the bearing of arms or the taking of human life.

    As followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace, we believe in implicit obedience to His commandments and precepts which instruct us as follows: ".. that ye resist not evil. . ." (Matt. 5:39): "Follow peace with all men..." (Heb. 12:14). (See also Matt. 26:52; Rom. 12:19; James 5:6; Revelation 13:10). These we believe and interpret to mean Christians shall not shed blood nor take human life.

    Therefore, we propose to fulfill all the obligations of loyal citizens, but are constrained to declare against participating in combatant service in war, armed insurrection, property destruction, aiding or abetting in or the actual destruction of human life.

    Furthermore, we cannot conscientiously affiliate with any union, boycott, or organization which will force or bind any of its members to belong to any organization, perform any duties contrary to our conscience, or receive any mark, without our right to affirm or reject same (1930).

    However, we regret the false impression created by some groups or so-called "conscientious objectors" that to obey the Bible is to have a contempt for law or magistrates, to be disloyal to our Government and in sympathy with our enemies, or to be unwilling to sacrifice for the preservation of our commonwealth. This attitude would be as contemptible to us as to any patriot. The Word of God commands us to do violence to no man. It also commands us that first of all we are to pray for rulers of our country. We, therefore, exhort our members to freely and willingly respond to the call of our Government except in the matter of bearing arms. When we say service, we mean service-no matter how hard or dangerous. The true church has no more place for cowards than has the nation. First of all, however, let us earnestly pray that we will with honor be kept out of war.

    We believe that we can be consistent in serving our Government in certain noncombatant capacities, but not in the bearing of arms. (1940).

    We further believe that our military personnel must live in a manner consistent with the Articles of Faith.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So I get it that the Apostolic Pentecostals are not opposed to government except in the case of serving in a combative role in war...conscientious objectors. No where did I find that Apostolic Pentecostals are opposed to gay marriage, but I suppose that's buried in their scriptures somewhere. However, what I read into the above is that they cannot "conscientiously affiliate with any organization that forces them to perform duties contrary to their conscience". It does not say that that they can change the policies of that organization (in this case the US government) to fit their beliefs. To "not affiliate" means to resign as Clerk and Recorder and not become a martyr for her beliefs.

    Of course, Kim Davis may not be a member of the Apostolic Pentecostals. We cannot be absolutely sure. No church organization or denomination has come forward to claim her as one of their own. Mike Huckabee and a few other Republicans, however, have jumped on board for political gain.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Schmidt Wrote:

    I don't want to stereotype or tag all Christians with the extremist views of Kim Davis. Most Christians, I believe, would not agree with what she is doing. In searching for what denomination of Christianity she might be claiming as hers, Think Progress has an article:

    Think Progress, The Religious Beliefs Of Kim Davis, The Anti-Gay Clerk Who Refuses To Do Her Job, Explained

    "So where does Davis’ seemingly inconsistent theology come from, and how can she justify her actions using scripture? The answer begins with Apostolic Christianity, a tradition she claims to have converted to only four years ago. It’s unclear what specific worship community Davis calls home, but she is likely affiliated with one of two different traditions that nonetheless share similar beliefs on same-sex marriage and divorce — namely, Apostolic Pentecostalism (the most likely option."

    There was also speculation that she could be a member of the Apostolic Christian Church, but "several self-identified members of the Apostolic Christian Church have reached out to insist that Davis is not ACC."

    Assuming that she is indeed, Apostolic Pentecostal as Think Progress suggests, I went into what their beliefs and extracted a few paragraphs:

    Apostolic Pentecostal Beliefs!

    CONSCIENTIOUS SCRUPLES

    We recognize the institution of human government as being of divine ordination, and, in so doing, affirm unswerving loyalty to our Government; however, we take a definite position regarding the bearing of arms or the taking of human life.

    As followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace, we believe in implicit obedience to His commandments and precepts which instruct us as follows: ".. that ye resist not evil. . ." (Matt. 5:39): "Follow peace with all men..." (Heb. 12:14). (See also Matt. 26:52; Rom. 12:19; James 5:6; Revelation 13:10). These we believe and interpret to mean Christians shall not shed blood nor take human life.

    Therefore, we propose to fulfill all the obligations of loyal citizens, but are constrained to declare against participating in combatant service in war, armed insurrection, property destruction, aiding or abetting in or the actual destruction of human life.

    Furthermore, we cannot conscientiously affiliate with any union, boycott, or organization which will force or bind any of its members to belong to any organization, perform any duties contrary to our conscience, or receive any mark, without our right to affirm or reject same (1930).

    However, we regret the false impression created by some groups or so-called "conscientious objectors" that to obey the Bible is to have a contempt for law or magistrates, to be disloyal to our Government and in sympathy with our enemies, or to be unwilling to sacrifice for the preservation of our commonwealth. This attitude would be as contemptible to us as to any patriot. The Word of God commands us to do violence to no man. It also commands us that first of all we are to pray for rulers of our country. We, therefore, exhort our members to freely and willingly respond to the call of our Government except in the matter of bearing arms. When we say service, we mean service-no matter how hard or dangerous. The true church has no more place for cowards than has the nation. First of all, however, let us earnestly pray that we will with honor be kept out of war.

    We believe that we can be consistent in serving our Government in certain noncombatant capacities, but not in the bearing of arms. (1940).

    We further believe that our military personnel must live in a manner consistent with the Articles of Faith.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So I get it that the Apostolic Pentecostals are not opposed to government except in the case of serving in a combative role in war...conscientious objectors. No where did I find that Apostolic Pentecostals are opposed to gay marriage, but I suppose that's buried in their scriptures somewhere. However, what I read into the above is that they cannot "conscientiously affiliate with any organization that forces them to perform duties contrary to their conscience". It does not say that that they can change the policies of that organization (in this case the US government) to fit their beliefs. To "not affiliate" means to resign as Clerk and Recorder and not become a martyr for her beliefs.

    Of course, Kim Davis may not be a member of the Apostolic Pentecostals. We cannot be absolutely sure. No church organization or denomination has come forward to claim her as one of their own. Mike Huckabee and a few other Republicans, however, have jumped on board for political gain.

    Schmidt , the point is religion should stay out of Government issues; whatever rules these "believers" make should never apply in any government: Separation of church and State should apply. Nutty scriptures were written by "humans" as well under different circumstances; they are not the present rule of the land Let these people proof first that something up there can write and dictate, let alone if they ever met or seen such "thing", talked to it and got a written reply with a signature. Only terrible dumb "people" make these things up.
  • Liberal Democrat
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    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Dutch -- I agree with you. The point I was trying to make is that even by her church's own extremist views, no where does it seem to allow any of their congregation to force their religious views to override government laws. Or as Davis puts it...God's authority trumps the Supreme Court of the land.

    I would like to see some mainstream Christian leaders (Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, etc.) come forth and state that her personal views to defy the Supreme Court and Federal Court (contempt of court) in no way represents mainstream Christian doctrine. They should disavow her, but by their silence are they acquiescing to her religious doctrine?

    Is Kim Davis alone in her martyrdom or does the whole Christian community have her back? Let's hear from the Christians.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Schmidt Wrote:

    Dutch -- I agree with you. The point I was trying to make is that even by her church's own extremist views, no where does it seem to allow any of their congregation to force their religious views to override government laws. Or as Davis puts it...God's authority trumps the Supreme Court of the land.

    I would like to see some mainstream Christian leaders (Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, etc.) come forth and state that her personal views to defy the Supreme Court and Federal Court (contempt of court) in no way represents mainstream Christian doctrine. They should disavow her, but by their silence are they acquiescing to her religious doctrine?

    Is Kim Davis alone in her martyrdom or does the whole Christian community have her back? Let's hear from the Christians.

    Yes Schmidt, I would be the last one to disagree with you. The problem I have is that these indoctrinated people refuse to think for themselves. Like they say in Dutch; "Het is met the pap lepel ingegoten" (They are spoon fed) Rational thinking is not taught in their schools.
  • Independent
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    scripture says that authority is to be obeyed. those who pick and choose what to believe/follow out of scripture are forced to do so due to the problem of internal contradiction in said scripture. thus they bring their own prejudices and beliefs into the decision-making process. the entire exercise allows them to be "christian" within a self-defined or defined by a group that has the same belief/decision-making process as themselves belief structure. so, no, it isn't christianity since there is no such thing to start with as the christ did not start a new religion. it is better described as paul-ianity with a good dose of mosaic law thrown in.
  • Liberal Democrat
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    Colorado Springs, CO
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    lonely bird -- Yes, when we are born we are not bigots. Bigotry is something that is learned at a young age at home or in the community of friends that a person associates with...including one's church. If a person doesn't have a church affiliation, there are thousands of denominations of Christianity that bigots can pick and choose from to find one that matches his/her prior prejudices.

    Prejudices once learned are very difficult to unlearn depending on how deep they go. Sadly some parents of a gay son or daughter have even disowned their own children. Those are the real hard case bigots that are incapable of thinking differently.

    I don't know if Kim Davis is in that league, but she certainly was a bigot before she became an Apostolic Pentecostal, and somehow she is using that new "Christian identity" to support her deep seated bigotry, even though she seems misinformed. But her lawyer is a staunch bigot as well, having founded the law firm Liberty Counsel, which the Southern Poverty Law Center has classified as an anti-LGBT Hate Group.

    TPM: Meet The Anti-Gay Lawyer Fighting For Defiant Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis

    I still maintain that real Christians have to step forward and call her and her lawyer out for what they are...first class bigots that are using their Christian identity to support their bigotry.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    The latest: a Muslim flight attendant refused to serve alcoholic drinks on a flight within the USA . Now the TV is again full with this. Lately religion fanatics pop up their ugly heads. I just wonder about hiring practices; of course you cannot discriminate,but before you hire you sure can ask particular questions. So employers if you want to hire a religious fanatic don't forget these questions. Amen, Religion is and remains the curse of humanity.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
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    Portland, OR
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    Schmidt Wrote: I still maintain that real Christians have to step forward and call her and her lawyer out for what they are...first class bigots that are using their Christian identity to support their bigotry.

    I agree. I'm sure there are more than a few Christians out there who are ashamed and embarrassed by her theatrics, but that isn't what "sells" in today's media.

    Kim Davis is a bigot, but she is a bigot that is being hoodwinked by her legal team, the Christian law firm Liberty Counsel, who is using her case as a fundraising drive for their office that has been labeled a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center. She's just a pawn in their game of using the courts to try to force their hate filled vision of a far right Christian utopia in a secular country.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Schmidt Wrote: I still maintain that real Christians have to step forward and call her and her lawyer out for what they are...first class bigots that are using their Christian identity to support their bigotry.

    I agree. I'm sure there are more than a few Christians out there who are ashamed and embarrassed by her theatrics, but that isn't what "sells" in today's media.

    Kim Davis is a bigot, but she is a bigot that is being hoodwinked by her legal team, the Christian law firm Liberty Counsel, who is using her case as a fundraising drive for their office that has been labeled a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center. She's just a pawn in their game of using the courts to try to force their hate filled vision of a far right Christian utopia in a secular country.

    The worst part of it is that Cruz who visited her and promotes these evangelical nutheads is now teaming up with Trump in order to get these church freaks on his side; politics as usual.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
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    Portland, OR
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    Dutch Wrote: The worst part of it is that Cruz who visited her and promotes these evangelical nutheads is now teaming up with Trump in order to get these church freaks on his side; politics as usual.
    I see those nutcase Presidential candidates on stage with that bigot and think the exact opposite. I say keep it up. Let's see how far to the right these candidates will take the party. That will only wind up helping Democrats in the long run. We have to think about the long game here!
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Dutch Wrote: The worst part of it is that Cruz who visited her and promotes these evangelical nutheads is now teaming up with Trump in order to get these church freaks on his side; politics as usual.
    I see those nutcase Presidential candidates on stage with that bigot and think the exact opposite. I say keep it up. Let's see how far to the right these candidates will take the party. That will only wind up helping Democrats in the long run. We have to think about the long game here!
    Yes Jared, I hope it happens that way; at least I enjoy all of this, which shows on how pathetic they are. But don't under estimate Trump he'll use all "capitalistic" tools to get ahead.
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    I guess you have all seen the News yesterday, which had lots of GOP favorites on board, with even Donald Trump, & Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, etc --- all of them in Washington, DC --- near the Capitol grounds --- to give their performance a feeling of "legitimacy." All the best Washington DC stage props, -- instead of the usual "Ringling Bros" tent, which is as legitimate as it gets, for the GOP clowns. Well, the performance was dazzling. Sarah Palin "flubbed her lines" a few times and Donald Trump called our leaders "very very stupid people" -- (who fixed our economy, got us out of Iraq, & saved the auto industry, etc) --- While HE, Trump, had to declare bankruptcy several times, as a billionaire Hotel owner, who never has been employed (or elected) to the US Govt. OH WELL, what makes us think that a little EXPERIENCE might be slightly necessary, to be the Leader of the Free World??

    HELL NO --- We might as well employ the DUCK DYNASTY --- Oh yes, They were there, too. (I think THEY might be selected to be Trump's "Cabinet officials," if he wins. (Can't you just see their Motto, NOW? ---- "If Trump Wins, --- You-all better "DUCK and COVER." -- /// (Back in the years of Prez Eisenhower, (the 1950's) all kids in school had regular "atomic bomb drills," where a siren would sound, & all the little kids had to duck under their desks, & cover their heads).