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laws are like sausages

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  • Center Left Democrat
    Democrat
    Flagstaff, AZ
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    Otto von Bismarck famously said, "Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being make".

    That phrase came to mind this morning as I read about the final negotiations on the Trans Pacific trade bill.

    For a long time, I simply could not decide whether the trade bill was a good or a bad thing, and the fact that Elizabeth Warren (who I like ) and Barack Obama (who I also like) took opposing positions on the bill really had me confused.

    Fortunately, Schmidt published articles on April 29 and Mary 12 that clarified the issue, and I swung over to supporting it.

    Until this morning.

    Some of the amendments now being proposed by the Republicans would make the bill a lot less desirable. I have strong opinions about climate change, and James Sensenbrenner's amendment would make it more difficult to address that issue. In addition, Steve King's proposed amendment would muck up a lot of the progress we have made on immigration.

    The final House vote is scheduled for today, and my opinion will have absolutely no bearing on the outcome

    One thing that IS certain,. though, is that Pope Francis should nominate Obama for immediate sainthood as soon as his term ends. No one but a saint could tolerate as much nonsense as he has had to put up with for the last 6 years.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/11/business/republicans-attach-conditions-to-their-votes-on-trade-agreement.html?mabReward=CTM&action=click&pgtype=Homepage®ion=CColumn&module=Recommendation&src=rechp&WT.nav=RecEngine&_r=0

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    that guy in Arizona Wrote:

    Otto von Bismarck famously said, "Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being make".

    That phrase came to mind this morning as I read about the final negotiations on the Trans Pacific trade bill.

    For a long time, I simply could not decide whether the trade bill was a good or a bad thing, and the fact that Elizabeth Warren (who I like ) and Barack Obama (who I also like) took opposing positions on the bill really had me confused.

    Fortunately, Schmidt published articles on April 29 and Mary 12 that clarified the issue, and I swung over to supporting it.

    Until this morning.

    Some of the amendments now being proposed by the Republicans would make the bill a lot less desirable. I have strong opinions about climate change, and James Sensenbrenner's amendment would make it more difficult to address that issue. In addition, Steve King's proposed amendment would muck up a lot of the progress we have made on immigration.

    The final House vote is scheduled for today, and my opinion will have absolutely no bearing on the outcome

    One thing that IS certain,. though, is that Pope Francis should nominate Obama for immediate sainthood as soon as his term ends. No one but a saint could tolerate as much nonsense as he has had to put up with for the last 6 years.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/11/business/republicans-attach-conditions-to-their-votes-on-trade-agreement.html?mabReward=CTM&action=click&pgtype=Homepage®ion=CColumn&module=Recommendation&src=rechp&WT.nav=RecEngine&_r=0

    Guy; sure I can follow you completely; can't we make a law that makes Republicans unwanted immigrants? A real sick bunch. Making Obama a "saint" does not help him much; he does not get a tax break because of it, nor gets a movie role, or a separate non-existing chair in a non-existing "heaven" Fox news will have a "hay" day if so.
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    Yes, this is one of the most confusing things I have ever known about. Brilliant scholars and professionals in finance are having trouble with figuring it all out. And the Pope will just shake his head in disbelief, with all the weird acrobatics of the GOP, on this issue. But you are right, that OBAMA would certainly deserve to be declared for SAINT-HOOD, after all he has had to put up with, during the last 8 years. He is probably the only man on earth who could keep his temper at some of the GOP typical foolishness, Dear Obama has had to share a govt, with literally hundreds of people who are either semi-retarded or totally crazy.

  • Liberal
    Independent
    Durham, NH
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    eternal flame Wrote:

    Yes, this is one of the most confusing things I have ever known about. Brilliant scholars and professionals in finance are having trouble with figuring it all out. And the Pope will just shake his head in disbelief, with all the weird acrobatics of the GOP, on this issue. But you are right, that OBAMA would certainly deserve to be declared for SAINT-HOOD, after all he has had to put up with, during the last 8 years. He is probably the only man on earth who could keep his temper at some of the GOP typical foolishness, Dear Obama has had to share a govt, with literally hundreds of people who are either semi-retarded or totally crazy.

    NO! No problem figuring this one out at all. If the are pups are for it and major corporations we can be sure it's not in our best interests!

    Obama is for this bill because he is owned by Wall St. And now his term is ending he is looking to cover his arse for the next 30 or 40 years and he knows the middle class isn't going to do it for him for sure. I voted for him twice because he was the best candidate and I would again but that hardly makes him an excellent president either. Let's face it - Obama is and always has been a centrist Republican in the 60's style. He is no Progressive or even Liberal. He is a product of the Ivy League and will always fall back on them in spite of what he says publically.

    i can (and will) put Hillary in the same boat. I'll end up voting for her as she will be the only one worth voting for but I'll be holding my nose when I do.

    Bernie in 2016!!!!!!!

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    pr Wrote:
    eternal flame Wrote:

    Yes, this is one of the most confusing things I have ever known about. Brilliant scholars and professionals in finance are having trouble with figuring it all out. And the Pope will just shake his head in disbelief, with all the weird acrobatics of the GOP, on this issue. But you are right, that OBAMA would certainly deserve to be declared for SAINT-HOOD, after all he has had to put up with, during the last 8 years. He is probably the only man on earth who could keep his temper at some of the GOP typical foolishness, Dear Obama has had to share a govt, with literally hundreds of people who are either semi-retarded or totally crazy.

    NO! No problem figuring this one out at all. If the are pups are for it and major corporations we can be sure it's not in our best interests!

    Obama is for this bill because he is owned by Wall St. And now his term is ending he is looking to cover his arse for the next 30 or 40 years and he knows the middle class isn't going to do it for him for sure. I voted for him twice because he was the best candidate and I would again but that hardly makes him an excellent president either. Let's face it - Obama is and always has been a centrist Republican in the 60's style. He is no Progressive or even Liberal. He is a product of the Ivy League and will always fall back on them in spite of what he says publically.

    i can (and will) put Hillary in the same boat. I'll end up voting for her as she will be the only one worth voting for but I'll be holding my nose when I do.

    Bernie in 2016!!!!!!!

    Absolutely correct; indeed he's just a "puppet' on a string. Predictions are that this is the beginning of the end of the USA. Just "printing" money like crazy and insulting your own people by the Fatca law will make this country like Hitler did in the 1930's. The money will become worthless. Why do you think the "rich" just like in the Hitler time are buying up all the "collectables" , paintings, sculptures, collectable cars as well expensive real estates outside the US?
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Compromise is not a four letter word. President Obama is a liberal, but he also has to govern a whole country, and if he would take an uncompromising stance on every issue of the day, there would be zero progress on anything. Bernie Sanders has a wonderful wish list of things he would do or would like to do as president, and I love his list, but as soon as he had to compromise on one issue, liberals will be ready to toss him under the bus as well. We have three branches of government and each has to participate for the government to function. Any president can be rendered powerless by a Congress that wants to sabotage his presidency. Read my blog on The Strategy behind the “Party of No” to obstruct job growth

    President Obama has had to put up with more shit than any president in history. And Republicans keep getting away with their "hate Obama and hate government" campaign because people don't give a shit...they don't vote. If you want to point the finger at someone it's the 144 million people (70 percent liberal minded) that just didn't get off their asses in the last election to vote. They are probably the first to complain about Obama.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Schmidt Wrote:

    Compromise is not a four letter word. President Obama is a liberal, but he also has to govern a whole country, and if he would take an uncompromising stance on every issue of the day, there would be zero progress on anything. Bernie Sanders has a wonderful wish list of things he would do or would like to do as president, and I love his list, but as soon as he had to compromise on one issue, liberals will be ready to toss him under the bus as well. We have three branches of government and each has to participate for the government to function. Any president can be rendered powerless by a Congress that wants to sabotage his presidency. Read my blog on The Strategy behind the “Party of No” to obstruct job growth

    President Obama has had to put up with more shit than any president in history. And Republicans keep getting away with their "hate Obama and hate government" campaign because people don't give a shit...they don't vote. If you want to point the finger at someone it's the 144 million people (70 percent liberal minded) that just didn't get off their asses in the last election to vote. They are probably the first to complain about Obama.

    Schmidt; "compromise" is not the issue, just think, who's actually running this country? Certainly not the president. In a capitalistic country the people with the most money run it. ask the Koch brothers and others. So all the "hoopla" about compromise makes only "lawyers" rich, because our "laws" are written such way that a normal person can't even figure out what the law says, or for what persons it has any effect. So don't let me laugh about this circus called government.

    If you stir enough in any government "shit" with "compromise" it still remains shit, except in a more drinkable form but gives you even more of a stomach cramp.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Dutch -- So what is your solution? Give me something that will work and not a wish list. I will champion it in my local Democratic Party. It is easy to point what's wrong, but fixing things is more difficult. Hanging your hat on Bernie Sanders is not a fix.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Schmidt Wrote: Dutch -- So what is your solution? Give me something that will work and not a wish list. I will champion it in my local Democratic Party. It is easy to point what's wrong, but fixing things is more difficult. Hanging your hat on Bernie Sanders is not a fix.

    Schmidt a good question. As I said many times the only "fix" is doing things drastically; however this country will not accept that they love the "weasel" mentality. Only a dictatorship can change that, if it is the right one. Just about a Monroe doctrine, like stopping all our wars ,concentrating on our own country, make it livable and prosperous; clean environment; take the money out of governing and elections; bribery or kickbacks should get huge fines and jail time. No more lobbyists allowed in the government; total change of attitude in the Pentagon, NSA, TSA. CIA, FBI, to serve the people instead of looking for "ghosts". Get our war industry changed into a "public" transport industry etc. Send all our police to Europe for training instead of a military boot camp. etc. Fix all our potholes for a change; make Detroit a "rich" city, Wow, I could write a book I guess.

    But I'm dreaming, none if this is going to happen; I guarantee in 2018 we will be in worse shape than now. Because the issues remain the same. It will be a "new" 2008 depression but ten times worse; Ron Paul may be right. Absolutely correct Bernie may just be "words" only and not electable.

  • Liberal
    Independent
    Durham, NH
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    No, no, no! Obama is not a Liberal or a Progressive he is a middle of the road Republican! The problem is all the middle of the road (good) Republicans moved over to the Democrats and left the Tea Party, Conservative, born again fundamentalist religious nuts in power. Thirty years ago we would laugh at Obama being called a Democrat!
  • Liberal
    Other Party
    Llos Angeles, CA
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    pr Wrote: No, no, no! Obama is not a Liberal or a Progressive he is a middle of the road Republican! The problem is all the middle of the road (good) Republicans moved over to the Democrats and left the Tea Party, Conservative, born again fundamentalist religious nuts in power. Thirty years ago we would laugh at Obama being called a Democrat!

    Correct. He's never been a liberal. He's part of the private club now.

    He proved that with health care (single payer) and with the latest trade agreement......

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    L.A. Citizen Wrote:
    pr Wrote: No, no, no! Obama is not a Liberal or a Progressive he is a middle of the road Republican! The problem is all the middle of the road (good) Republicans moved over to the Democrats and left the Tea Party, Conservative, born again fundamentalist religious nuts in power. Thirty years ago we would laugh at Obama being called a Democrat!

    Correct. He's never been a liberal. He's part of the private club now.

    He proved that with health care (single payer) and with the latest trade agreement......

    As I said, he's just a puppet on a string; the string is controlled by the puppeteer what is called the "advisors" and the one percent lobby.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Schmidt Wrote: President Obama has had to put up with more shit than any president in history. And Republicans keep getting away with their "hate Obama and hate government" campaign because people don't give a shit...they don't vote. If you want to point the finger at someone it's the 144 million people (70 percent liberal minded) that just didn't get off their asses in the last election to vote. They are probably the first to complain about Obama.

    I could not have said it better myself, Schmidt.

    Nothing is going to change in this country if people continue to not participate in their democracy. We get the government we vote (or don't vote) for. It's easy to complain, but if people don't vote better Senators and Representatives into office then we will continue to have the shit show that is our Legislative Branch. People need to realize that a President is one part of the Federal Government and can't do much of anything without a Legislature that shares his (and hopefully someday hers) priorities.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    that guy in Arizona Wrote:

    Otto von Bismarck famously said, "Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being make".

    That phrase came to mind this morning as I read about the final negotiations on the Trans Pacific trade bill.

    For a long time, I simply could not decide whether the trade bill was a good or a bad thing, and the fact that Elizabeth Warren (who I like ) and Barack Obama (who I also like) took opposing positions on the bill really had me confused.

    Fortunately, Schmidt published articles on April 29 and Mary 12 that clarified the issue, and I swung over to supporting it.

    Until this morning.

    Some of the amendments now being proposed by the Republicans would make the bill a lot less desirable. I have strong opinions about climate change, and James Sensenbrenner's amendment would make it more difficult to address that issue. In addition, Steve King's proposed amendment would muck up a lot of the progress we have made on immigration.

    The final House vote is scheduled for today, and my opinion will have absolutely no bearing on the outcome

    One thing that IS certain,. though, is that Pope Francis should nominate Obama for immediate sainthood as soon as his term ends. No one but a saint could tolerate as much nonsense as he has had to put up with for the last 6 years.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/11/business/republicans-attach-conditions-to-their-votes-on-trade-agreement.html?mabReward=CTM&action=click&pgtype=Homepage®ion=CColumn&module=Recommendation&src=rechp&WT.nav=RecEngine&_r=0

    Arizona -- Thanks for the NYT article. I know all this procedural stuff can be confusing so let me try clarify some points.

    The Trans Pacific Partnership Trade agreement (TPP) is still in the negotiation phase amongst the 12 countries concerned. It is not final and will not be voted on until it is final. That may be months away. All the public has seen is the WikiLeaks draft from 2013. Members of Congress, however, do have access to an otherwise secret draft....NOT the final draft. They are at liberty to voice concerns to the Obama administration.

    The Trade Promotion Authority (TPA) bill (aka fast track) allows the President's team of negotiators to conduct final negotiations with the authority that final draft will not be cherry picked apart in Congress. Congress will only have an up or down vote, but cannot make amendments. The Senate has approved the TPA, but the House has not yet voted on it. It is important for Obama to have this authority to be able to negotiate the final terms of the TPP in good faith. Most analysts say that without the TPA, the chances of getting the 12 countries to agree to the TPP are pretty slim. You kill the TPA and you most likely are killing the TPP...at least in so far as America is concerned. The other 11 countries can proceed without us.

    The Trade Adjustment Assistance (TAA) is a separate bill that provides financial support to workers that become unemployed as a result of trade agreements. Democrat support for the TPP is conditional on also passing the TAA. Without a strong TAA, Democrats cannot support the TPP. Nancy Pelosi withdrew her support for the TAA in a procedural move so that the terms for worker assistance can be strengthened. That's what the vote was about in which "Obama suffered a crushing defeat by his own party."

    The Trade Promotion Bill that the House passed was in lieu of the Trade Promotion Authority. It had a laundry list of things that Republicans wanted (as per the NYT article) but excluded Trade Adjustment Assistance (TAA). However, this bill will not be taken up by the Senate. It's more of a "feel good" move by Republican House members.

    For the TPA to pass the House, it needs a strong TAA. Without a strong TAA, Nancy Pelosi can withhold her approval of the TPA. Without the TPA, President Obama's six years of negotiations to reach a final deal on the TPP are likely dead in the water. Historically, Congress has always granted presidents TPA authority although sometimes the vote margins have been slim.

    Contrary to media reports, the unions have been represented in the negotiations, although with 12 countries concerned, only the top negotiators have a seat at the table. Unions submitted a large laundry list of demands, but most were not taken up. We do not know what demands were accepted and what were rejected as they are a part of the secret negotiations. In my opinion the unions have not been entirely honest in their dealings. They have been against the TPP from the get go. They are against all trade agreements and have sought to sabotage the negotiation efforts. I would not be surprised if they were the ones that leaked the draft to WikiLeaks.

    I maintain that Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are using their opposition to the TPP to pander to a niche audience of liberals and progressives. They don't mind throwing Obama under the bus for their own gain. I have read all of their "talking points" but most all are directed at past trade agreements. All of the talking points are largely borrowed from the union funded EPI (Economic Policy Institute).

    Having said all that, however, I think it is a good move by Nancy Pelosi to seek a stronger TAA before going forward with the TPA. Republicans are opposed to TAA entirely. They are playing politics. The media are misreading this and are too eager to cast it as another defeat for Obama. Many in the media are totally ignorant of the process and deal making.

    Still confused?