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Rachel Maddow Show 4/17/15

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  • Independent
    Florida
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    Just watched the Rachel Maddow show special about McVeigh when about halfway into it a bulb went off in my head. Now I know why the government {any part} won't f#%* with Bundy.
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Cliven Bundy and his followers are a bunch of fools. They claim to be "sovereign citizens", that is they do not recognize he legitimacy of the US government. Yet they live off the government dime...everything should be free. So now they are going to court to reclaim all the BLM lands from the federal government. That of course won't happen, but what if it did? What next for all the public lands in Nevada and other western states that are introducing similar legislation? The fees that these ranchers pay to graze their cattle on public lands are extremely low compared to the real costs if they were to pay a private rancher to graze on similar lands. It doesn't pay for the fencing or the considerable damage that these cattle cause to the environment. The tax payer picks up that cost.

    So if they are successful in their suit what happens when the taxpayers of Nevada tell Bundy that he cannot graze his cattle on public land (now under Nevada ownership) without paying fees to the state of Nevada? Will there be another showdown? Bundy wants stuff for free, whether from the federal government or the state of Nevada, but nothing is free.

    I suspect that Bundy is just another stupid fool who is being played by the plutocrats, the ones that really want the land that his cattle graze on. Bundy doesn't have the money to buy the lands, but there are lots of billionaire plutocrats that do. And they ain't going to let Bundy raise his cattle on their newly acquired land for free either.

    LA Times, Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy takes on the U.S. government again
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    On this topic, the Southern Poverty Law Center has published a list of terrorist plots since OKC bombing by the "right"...you know the "real Americans" that consider themselves exceptional. Take a look at this list. There are no Muslim initiated acts of terror on this particular list, but if the SPLC were to publish such a list of acts of terror in the USA instigated in the name of Islam, then the list would quite short in comparison.

    SPLC: Terror From the Right: Plots, Conspiracies and Racist Rampages Since Oklahoma City

    So frankly, I fear these crazies more than any Islamic extremist that might find his/her way to our shores. LOOK at the very looong list and tell me if you agree. I wonder why these don't get more publicity.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Schmidt Wrote: Cliven Bundy and his followers are a bunch of fools. They claim to be "sovereign citizens", that is they do not recognize he legitimacy of the US government. Yet they live off the government dime...everything should be free.
    Great point, Schmidt. Their hypocrisy is mind-boggling sometimes.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Schmidt Wrote: On this topic, the Southern Poverty Law Center has published a list of terrorist plots since OKC bombing by the "right"...you know the "real Americans" that consider themselves exceptional. Take a look at this list. There are no Muslim initiated acts of terror on this particular list, but if the SPLC were to publish such a list of acts of terror in the USA instigated in the name of Islam, then the list would quite short in comparison.

    SPLC: Terror From the Right: Plots, Conspiracies and Racist Rampages Since Oklahoma City

    So frankly, I fear these crazies more than any Islamic extremist that might find his/her way to our shores. LOOK at the very looong list and tell me if you agree. I wonder why these don't get more publicity.
    Thanks for sharing, Schmidt.

    This is the cognitive dissonance that drives me up a wall. Right wing groups are almost exclusively responsible for all acts of terrorism in this country, yet we shrug our shoulders and give them a pass each and every time they do go on a shooting spree or bomb something. However, if an individual of Islamic descent does something terrible then we blame ALL Muslims.

    If it were right wing groups who bombed the Boston Marathon then we would have an entirely different narrative about the incident. I don't think Fox News would push out anti-Christian propaganda and blame Christianity as a whole for the bombing, as they did with the Tsarnaev brothers and Islam. It seems perfectly acceptable to blame all of Islam anytime a Muslim does something terrible, but it's always an isolated incident whenever a right wing Christian commits an act of terrorism.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Schmidt Wrote: Cliven Bundy and his followers are a bunch of fools. They claim to be "sovereign citizens", that is they do not recognize he legitimacy of the US government. Yet they live off the government dime...everything should be free.
    Great point, Schmidt. Their hypocrisy is mind-boggling sometimes.
    Schmidt and Jared; in how many threads I mentioned the hypocracy in this country; guess who bombed the Islamic people all over the place; What about Communism that is even worse. Just go bravely to church and all is forgiven; just count the money earned on these destructive weapons. Hallejuja.
  • Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    Timothy McVeigh has been in the news for the Oklahoma City bombing. I did not get to listen to most of the TV coverage, but when Clinton got elected, the John Birch Society was all worked up over the Brady Bill, which banned assault weapons & increased the waiting period for handgun purchases. This law instantly became the Far Right's "Call to Arms" --- some fought back with pamphlets or petitions, while the more militant types took to the woods for combat training with their AK-47's and Glocks. Most of the guys in muddy camouflage were week-end warriors, But a few hard-core guys clearly wanted a race war, & were studying
    sabotage and explosives. Their Handbook was known as the "Turner Diaries" -- (published 1978), was written by William Pierce, (alias Andrew Macdonald). Mr. Pierce was an early member of the John Birch Society, (turned neo-Nazi), & gained many of his ideas from his good friend, Dr. Revilo Oliver. It must be said here, that Revilo Oliver was on the National Council of the John Birch Society. (1)

    The handbook describes how a fictional America (in 1991) was just like a "police state," & the main characters were all doing terrorist attacks to start a "Great Revolution." & given orders to blow-up the FBI Headquarters. So they put together a homemade bomb, using fuel oil, fertilizer, & a delivery truck. And at the last minute, they called the Washington Post newspaper & said, "Now we'll settle the score with all you traitors.-- "White America shall live!!" (2) The handbook was a work of fiction, being the easiest way to educate & inspire the radical right-wing elements. They read the story, & followed the Plot, just like a road map.

    At first, federal officials were sure that the Oklahoma bombing was the work of Islamic terrorists. It had all the earmarks you would expect. But, as we know, it was done by a U.S. citizen. Under the influence of right-wing radical extremists, who were just starting their reign of terror against all U.S. federal government.
    One motive, apparently, was Revenge for the destruction of the Waco "Camp Davidian" & the killing of its leader David Koresh. It was a religious compound
    in Texas, full of women & children, who were all killed when federal tanks forced their way into the main bldg, after a stand-off lasting fifty-one days. (3)

    My REFERENCES: "Wrapped in the Flag" (by Claire Conner) 2013 (Beacon Press) pp. 194 - 199.

    "If FASCISM ever comes to America, it will come Wrapped in the Flag, and Carrying a Cross."
  • Center Left Democrat
    Democrat
    Flagstaff, AZ
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    eternal flame :


    I read " wrapped in the flag" in January, and was amazed at how closely the John Birch Society tracks with the Tea Party. The only possible conclusion you can draw after reading the book is the that Claire's parents were absolutely nuts, and that same description can easily apply to large numbers of the folks that belong to the Tea Party, starting with Ted Cruz Louie Gohmert, of course, isn't far behind, but Arizona has more that its share of wacky politicians:

    Here's one of them:

    http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?q=Sylvia+Allen+Church+Mandatory&w=100&h=100&c=1&rs=1&qlt=90&bw=1&bc=333333&pid=InlineBlock&mkt=en-US&adlt=moderate&t=1&mw=247

    Sylvia Allen believes that the world is only 6000 years old. She also believes that church attendance should be mandatory.
  • Independent
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    Cliven bundy and his ilk are symptomatic of much of "we the people." There is bleating of freedom with no definition. There is bleating of big government tyranny.

    However, like his fellow travelers he simply wants the government when he wants it as though it is phucquing genie that appears flow-blown with monies and material when needed yet lacks of those to things precisely because he and his fellow travelers refuse to pay for it.

    As for fascism the problem lies in language and parochial interests that wield language. Government is no more or less fascist, rather, authoritarian, than any other power center. When power is ceded the end result is authoritarian. Corporate authoritarian is as evil and unacceptable as state authoritarian. The same applies to blanket so-called freedom which devolves into charlatanism.

    bird's theorem is only half in jest.

    "we the people" are stupid. Because we prefer narrative and simplistic nonsense to reality.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    that guy in Arizona Wrote: eternal flame :


    I read " wrapped in the flag" in January, and was amazed at how closely the John Birch Society tracks with the Tea Party. The only possible conclusion you can draw after reading the book is the that Claire's parents were absolutely nuts, and that same description can easily apply to large numbers of the folks that belong to the Tea Party, starting with Ted Cruz Louie Gohmert, of course, isn't far behind, but Arizona has more that its share of wacky politicians:

    Here's one of them:

    http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?q=Sylvia+Allen+Church+Mandatory&w=100&h=100&c=1&rs=1&qlt=90&bw=1&bc=333333&pid=InlineBlock&mkt=en-US&adlt=moderate&t=1&mw=247

    Sylvia Allen believes that the world is only 6000 years old. She also believes that church attendance should be mandatory.

    Fossilized dinosaur eggs were found in China during road repair work in Heyuan city in the southern Chinese province of Guangdong.
    Please ask this Sylvia nuthead to date them. Anyway how is someone going to make church attendance mandatory? Sorry I'm sick and have a contegious disease as well my TV is broken so I can't follow Fox's catholic mass. What is the punishment if I don't attend? Being stoned to death? Sure must be "God's will. Unbelievable that such terrible dumb people exist.
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    lonely bird Wrote: Cliven bundy and his ilk are symptomatic of much of "we the people." There is bleating of freedom with no definition. There is bleating of big government tyranny.

    However, like his fellow travelers he simply wants the government when he wants it as though it is phucquing genie that appears flow-blown with monies and material when needed yet lacks of those to things precisely because he and his fellow travelers refuse to pay for it.

    As for fascism the problem lies in language and parochial interests that wield language. Government is no more or less fascist, rather, authoritarian, than any other power center. When power is ceded the end result is authoritarian. Corporate authoritarian is as evil and unacceptable as state authoritarian. The same applies to blanket so-called freedom which devolves into charlatanism.

    bird's theorem is only half in jest.

    "we the people" are stupid. Because we prefer narrative and simplistic nonsense to reality.
    lonely bird -- yes the word "fascism" along with the word "socialism" are thrown around by people that have minimal knowledge of what the terms really mean. Fascism itself has many forms...some use the terms "neofascism" or "protofascism" to distinguish todays trends towards a different kind of fascism from that practiced in old Europe. Your choice of "corporate authoritarianism" is more descriptive of what we are seeing today with the Koch Industries influence on party politics. The term "inverted totalitarianism" was coined by Sheldon Wolin back in 2003 to describe the antics of the Bush administration working in concert with corporations. While some might claim those same elements exist in the Obama administration, it is a question of degree. There is no doubt in my mind that if Republicans ever gained full control of all three branches of government with a veto proof majority in the Senate, then it would be inverted totalitarianism all over again...except even worse because today's version of totalitarianism would have to cater to the Christian Evangelical agenda as well. Without the evangelicals voting in large numbers, the rest of the Republicans would be a permanent minority. So maybe Louie Gohmert will get to dictate what the government looks like.
  • Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    NOTE: This article has been EDITED by author (to clarify & erase some objectionable phrases -- even though "true" -- about the "loyal opposition". : ) : )

    Yes there is a clear thread which flows thru the Birch Society right into the Tea Party. The Birch Society began in 1958, & created an underground secret organization, which began a "propaganda" network that could reach across the whole United States. They even infiltrated the churches, which I know about personally, since someone I knew personally participated in that part of it. The JBS had even burrowed into the Catholic Church, (as Claire Conner says) when she saw her Catholic priest come to her house for weekly Birch meetings. (NOTE: Claire's father was on the Birch Society's National Council).

    The Birch people I have met, are exactly like Claire's parents --- they are totally brain-washed, to the point where Logic becomes irrelevant, & their thought patterns become almost robotic, as if hypnotized. You simply cannot break through with mere Facts. As you know, the intense propaganda becomes more & more manipulative, (much like mind control). Because Birchers are not allowed to watch any News source except Faux News & Rush Limberger Radio.

    Fred C. Koch was the father of the Koch Brothers. He lived in Soviet Russia for a few years, working on OIL contracts with Joseph Stalin. (Dictator of Russia).
    After making a few million$ there, Daddy Koch came back to the USA (Wichita, KS) -- & began adding to his OIL & other enterprises. He immediately joined the John Birch Society & got on the National Council. The JBS was founded by Robt Welch in 1958, (secret society of millionaires) & all worked to put Republicans into the U.S. government. Soon daddy Koch had 4 sons,-- 2 of which are known as the Koch Brothers, who attempt to subvert our democracy by helping to Rig our elections, & buy off our Supreme Court. You may have noticed that our elections are manipulated by gerrymandering - & many other methods.

    The John Birch Society has basically taken over the Republican Party for many decades. They started with Barry Goldwater & Nixon. (Goldwater was on the Executive Committee of the Birch Society in the 1960's).. The JBS had basically convinced all their members that John F Kennedy was a communist .
    (JFK was U.S. President 1960 - 1963). At a campaign event in Dallas, JFK was shot dead while riding in a motorcade with his wife Jackie -- on Nov 22, 1963.

    Claire outlines some clues, that the "JFK Wanted for Treason" pamphlets distributed all over Dallas that day, were paid for by the John Birch Society. Claire's father told her to "get a lawyer" that day, because the U.S. Govt would be questioning them, & thinking that they were guilty for shooting John Kennedy. It was at that moment that Claire asked her father "Well, WERE YOU?" (He never answered her and hung up the phone.). Fifty years later, that question still remains...

    However the Propaganda machine is still grinding out the same old subversive echoes--- Before they said that John F. Kennedy was a Communist, they NOW are saying that Obama is not an American citizen, that somehow he was born in Kenya, & is faking his birth certificate in Hawaii. The same kind of insanity is
    going on, about Obama, or any other Democratic candidate. The radio & TV brain-washing still continues, with Fake controversies about Hillary or Bill Clinton.,

    A new bunch of drop-outs from the "clown circus" erupts on the scene, speaking pure nonsense. Many of them have "fake" diplomas from fake colleges, which can almost explain why they are SO STUPID, They totally deny Global Warming, which can easily be proven by any scientific method. Meanwhile, they say "We have come to take our country back." Which is an old slogan used by the John Birch Society --- 50 years ago.

    But now they are more open with the TEA PARTY, & directly show us that they do NOT believe in "representative government" -- (called "democracy") & so they don't mind "rigging elections" -- & any other kind of "cheating" on elections. Just as Robt Welch (JBS Founder) said (in 1958) --- he "did not believe in democracy" (which should be a REAL BIG ALARM BELL). --- because our Founding Fathers clearly stated that they want America to be a DEMOCRACY ---- so that (govt of the people, by the people, & for the people) -- "shall not perish from the earth.").

    Robt Welch, of the John Birch Society, was going directly opposite of the wishes of the Founding Fathers, so that JBS could take unlawful power, and ignore the wishes of the US citizens. The Birch Society is a totally subversive organization, & they took over the control of the Republican Party (GOP) as a TOOL to gain more power over the US political process. (To subvert the authority & power of America, & put themselves into control over the United States govt).

    Executive Council Birchers are millionaire corporate types, used to being in power & giving orders. But they never want to OBEY orders, or give others equal rights to share opinions. So all dissent must be oppressed. Then you begin to have a NAZI hierarchy, where intense control is exerted over the underlings. You have people just like the Police Force in Ferguson, MO --- A FASCIST organization which rules by Terror. That is called NAZI ideology ---- watch out if this is happening here, because we should all know where this leads. (Concentration camps, slave labor, etc.). It all sounds like "so long ago" --- archaic tyranny --
    but it is gradually proceeding forward every day. (The JBS did not even exist until 1958, & in just 57 years, they got this much control over us & our elections)

    WATCH OUT. Already, the Congress ignores their duties & just skips out & "take a VACATION" anytime they wish. (Often for MONTHS at a Time). They refuse to vote on an Attorney General that Obama has chosen, they "let the whole Govt shut-down" if they don't get their way --- they have a Power GRIP on our whole Federal Govt, & they LOVE to show how they can "get their way" & ignore the Man that the People have Elected. They have nearly Bankrupted our US Treasury, due to some crooked Theft that took place under Bush JR, and have never paid us back for that enormous "Bail-Out". They are stealing money that belongs in our Treasury to Swiss Bank Accts, just so they don't have to pay the Taxes that they owe to Uncle Sam --- they refuse to fix most of their oil spills & environmental damage, by just saying "we do not believe in global warming or air pollution".. Yet, THEY are the ones DOING ALL the Damage & Pollution.

    Have you noticed any severe blatant Police Brutality lately? Much more than was ever witnessed before? Does it remind you of anything, like Nazi Germany?
    Do you notice that no matter how much the People have "protests" & "vigils" & media attention, that NOTHING basically is being done to stop those crimes?
    Do you find it odd that most police stations have TONS of Military Hardware in them, as if to suppress Gigantic Public Outrage, on a Global Scale?

    Have you noticed that America has such outlandish weird elections, it is like Clown Circus, instead of a legitimate election for a Global SuperPower? And that the stupidest idiots that ever lived, are prancing around on the GOP political stage, to make the whole scene look totally ridiculous, & insignificant?
    I hate to insult the "honorable opposition" -- but they often DO NOT impress me as being very "honorable" -- from their HOSTILE INTENTIONS.

    "ETERNAL VIGILANCE IS THE PRICE OF LIBERTY" --- (attributed to Jefferson & other Founding Fathers c. 18th century).