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Today versus 2021

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  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    Indiana was able to move their state back to 1950 by passing a law where Religion gets used to set a bigoted law. I think that it's pitiful. Just a tiny step away from the you can't eat in this restaurant because the color of your skin. Maybe one day we can move all of the ignorant citizens into one state and let then secede from the USA.
    Bigotry is in style today in the Hosier state but lets take a look at it again in 5 or so years. What makes the world go around ? Money - and lot's of it. This crazy bigoted law will cause groups/companies to not renew their lease when there are so many cities trying to get new companies in their city creating employment.
    The NCAA has their offices in Indianapolis but I expect that could change going forward.
    Secondly, Conventions and Sporting events. I imagine that the NFL won't consider placing a Super Bowl there. This years college basketball "Final Four" is already scheduled to be in Indianapolis but that won't happen again. Hosiers..... Say goodbye to the money made by hotels, restaurants, gas stations, parking garages, retail stores, Wages earned by Police officers, parking attendants, service industry staffs. The convention industry is fierce in competition so all cities will sell the idea that there are not citizens that they will turn away. A large convention can bring millions to a city.
    I think that it's crazy and insulting to suggest that you always know somebodies sexuality upon a first glance. Uh, I know that you're gay...but the church group just left and it's kind of a slow night so we'll feed you tonight but don't come back on a Friday, Saturday, or Sunday. We have many customers on those days.
    Bottom line is their exclusionary ways are fine today. They'll all brag about it Sunday in church. When it starts to cost the cities and businesses big money I wouldn't be surprised if it's revisited.

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/25/politics/mike-pence-religious-freedom-bill-gay-rights/

    (link was from our News section)
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    I am ashamed that I used to live next door to that state. Republicans recently realized that 'religious freedom' sounds a lot better than 'state sanctioned discrimination' and have done a great job of convincing their flock that it's totally acceptable to discriminate against gays just as long as they praise Jesus while they do it.

    I hope to see this fly back in their faces as much as humanly possible. I wonder how these God fearing Christians who want to discriminate against gay people will feel when they sit down at their favorite Lebanese restaurant only to be denied service; or how these God fearing Christians will react when a gay baker refuses to make a cake for a Christian wedding. Right wing Christians always seem to have no problem hating anyone who doesn't conform to their strict ideologies, but I recoil at the thought of having anyone ever dare discriminate against them. I hope this law will invigorate non-Christian business owners to throw it back in these bigots faces.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    TJ Wrote: Indiana was able to move their state back to 1950 by passing a law where Religion gets used to set a bigoted law. I think that it's pitiful. Just a tiny step away from the you can't eat in this restaurant because the color of your skin. Maybe one day we can move all of the ignorant citizens into one state and let then secede from the USA.
    Bigotry is in style today in the Hosier state but lets take a look at it again in 5 or so years. What makes the world go around ? Money - and lot's of it. This crazy bigoted law will cause groups/companies to not renew their lease when there are so many cities trying to get new companies in their city creating employment.
    The NCAA has their offices in Indianapolis but I expect that could change going forward.
    Secondly, Conventions and Sporting events. I imagine that the NFL won't consider placing a Super Bowl there. This years college basketball "Final Four" is already scheduled to be in Indianapolis but that won't happen again. Hosiers..... Say goodbye to the money made by hotels, restaurants, gas stations, parking garages, retail stores, Wages earned by Police officers, parking attendants, service industry staffs. The convention industry is fierce in competition so all cities will sell the idea that there are not citizens that they will turn away. A large convention can bring millions to a city.
    I think that it's crazy and insulting to suggest that you always know somebodies sexuality upon a first glance. Uh, I know that you're gay...but the church group just left and it's kind of a slow night so we'll feed you tonight but don't come back on a Friday, Saturday, or Sunday. We have many customers on those days.
    Bottom line is their exclusionary ways are fine today. They'll all brag about it Sunday in church. When it starts to cost the cities and businesses big money I wouldn't be surprised if it's revisited.

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/25/politics/mike-pence-religious-freedom-bill-gay-rights/

    (link was from our News section)
    Tony, indeed it is a shame; but as you said if "money" gets involved, then indeed they may change their minds. The money "god" always wins; so don't worry have them sell some more "bibles" that compensates the losses.
  • Democrat
    Philadelphia, PA
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    All three of the major religions Hebrew,Muslim and Christian all have tenets regarding homosexuality, all of which are against Homosexuality, I can't speak on the Hebrew or Muslim faith as I am neither, but I am a Christian, and Christians view homosexuality as a sin (crime) against God , so although we love the sinner we still abhor the act, if your relative is a thief you would not entrust them with something valuable ,it's that you don't like or love them, it's because you don't want to be a participate in their sin. Now many certain Christian denominations have soften their views on this but not all, and it is a very personal decision between that person and their own personal view of their respective faith. I myself view it as a sin and will not knowingly participate in any activity that emphasizes the gay life style, in much the same way I would not accompany a gambler to a casino or lend a car to a person who wants to rob a bank, by doing so would make me an accomplice to their acts and thereby making me more of sinner than they are because I should know better. This I know is a form of discrimination but I rather place God's Law before man's laws.
  • Independent
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    johnnycee Wrote: All three of the major religions Hebrew,Muslim and Christian all have tenets regarding homosexuality, all of which are against Homosexuality, I can't speak on the Hebrew or Muslim faith as I am neither, but I am a Christian, and Christians view homosexuality as a sin (crime) against God , so although we love the sinner we still abhor the act, if your relative is a thief you would not entrust them with something valuable ,it's that you don't like or love them, it's because you don't want to be a participate in their sin. Now many certain Christian denominations have soften their views on this but not all, and it is a very personal decision between that person and their own personal view of their respective faith. I myself view it as a sin and will not knowingly participate in any activity that emphasizes the gay life style, in much the same way I would not accompany a gambler to a casino or lend a car to a person who wants to rob a bank, by doing so would make me an accomplice to their acts and thereby making me more of sinner than they are because I should know better. This I know is a form of discrimination but I rather place God's Law before man's laws.
    then you had damn well better follow ALL of the law. because according to scripture "the lord said to moses..." and that means all of the law. so which laws do you chose to disregard and which ones do you chose to follow?

    but let's look deeper into your position.

    how many large corporations including software and computer tech companies offer benefits to same-sex couples? do you buy and use their products? because if you do you are guilty of supporting the "gay lifestyle", a pejorative produced by leviticans who do not believe biology but prefer their own prejudices. when you walk into the neighborhood small business to buy a product or service do you ask if they supply benefits for same-sex couples or if any workers are gay or if the owner is gay? because if they are then you are supporting the gay lifestyle.

    and please abandon that "hate the sin, love the sinner" nonsense. it is verbal juggling. admit your prejudice. have some intellectual honesty. say you hate gay people because you cannot separate the act from the person any more than you can separate straight people from heterosexual sex. it is part and parcel of their humanity. it is in their dna, their genes, whether you like it or accept it or not.

    but even more interesting is that paul, the word of god remember, said that we are free of the law. what did he mean? all of the law? or only those parts that leviticans choose to kick to the curb? and of course the christ said no such thing.
  • Center Left Democrat
    Democrat
    Flagstaff, AZ
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    Early last year, the Arizona legislature passed SB 1062, described as a "religious freedom" bill. Wisely, Governor Jan Brewer vetoed the bill on February 26, 2014, thus saving the 2015 Super Bowl and its $500 million economic impact for the state. In the back of her mind, she undoubtedly remembered when Arizona DID lose the Super Bowl about 20 years ago when Governor Evan Meacham cancelled the Martin Luther King holiday. In addition to Indiana and Arizona, other states have considered, or are considering, similar "religious freedom" bills, and they are listed in the article shown below:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_SB_1062

    http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.608021534006839645&w=138&h=177&c=7&rs=1&qlt=90&o=4&pid=1.7

    The issue came up again this week in Georgia, but the Democrats figured out a way to kill it, Interestingly enough, the Senate passed their version while the Democrats were in the bathroom (seriously) but the Democrats in the House were able to call their bluff, and the bill died:

    http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/03/27/3639808/georgia-religious-liberty-bill-dies-glorious-death/

    According to at least one writer, the economic benefit of hosting a NCAA tournament is close to $10 million. If the NCAA moves its headquarters out of Indianapolis, and holds no more tournaments in the state, the business owners in the state are going to start screaming.

    http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/ncaa-tournament/hosting-ncaa-tournament-games-has-tangible-benefits/

    The "elephant in the room", of course, is the Indianapolis 500, which generates close to $20 million in economic impact. If sponsors start to avoid the event due to the new law, the legislature may decide that it's long past time to repeal the law.

    http://www.500festival.com/node/547

    There will always be people who believe that homosexuality is a sin, and trying to convince them otherwise is would be like teaching algebra to your dog. Roughly 30% of the American population believes in the literal translation of the Bible, but I'm not one of them.

    I don't give a damn what is says in Leviticus 11:7. I had bacon for breakfast this morning, and it was delicious.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    lonely bird Wrote: then you had damn well better follow ALL of the law. because according to scripture "the lord said to moses..." and that means all of the law. so which laws do you chose to disregard and which ones do you chose to follow?
    And therein lies the problem with modern day Christians. They have no problem using their religion to institute state sanctioned discrimination against gay people, but do so while they are cheating on their wife. Why do they want to follow the Bible when it tells them to hate gay people but not feel the need to follow Leviticus 20:10 and put all adulterers to death? And if we are going to follow the Bible verse by verse then why don't we bring slavery back to America and kill those who work on the Sabbath? What a wonderful utopia it would be.

    But Christians don't want to follow the whole Bible, they just want to follow the parts that they want to. That way they can use their religious beliefs to refuse service to gay people but then use those same beliefs to forgive their adulterous friend who cheated on his wife or worked on the Sabbath.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    that guy in Arizona Wrote: According to at least one writer, the economic benefit of hosting a NCAA tournament is close to $10 million. If the NCAA moves its headquarters out of Indianapolis, and holds no more tournaments in the state, the business owners in the state are going to start screaming.

    http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/ncaa-tournament/hosting-ncaa-tournament-games-has-tangible-benefits/

    The "elephant in the room", of course, is the Indianapolis 500, which generates close to $20 million in economic impact. If sponsors start to avoid the event due to the new law, the legislature may decide that it's long past time to repeal the law.

    http://www.500festival.com/node/547
    I agree. If both of these big events see sponsors flee then I have a feeling the Indiana Governor will call a special session to repeal the law. Money speaks more than anything else in America.

    that guy in Arizona Wrote: There will always be people who believe that homosexuality is a sin, and trying to convince them otherwise is would be like teaching algebra to your dog. Roughly 30% of the American population believes in the literal translation of the Bible, but I'm not one of them.

    I don't give a damn what is says in Leviticus 11:7. I had bacon for breakfast this morning, and it was delicious.

    This is a great analogy. Those who are stuck in the 1500's aren't going to join the 21st Century anytime soon. Judging and hating those who don't conform to their lifestyle is just what they do. It's not going to change.

    And I agree--there's nothing better than some thick-cut bacon strips on a Saturday morning.
  • Democrat
    Philadelphia, PA
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    I do try and follow all of the laws, like the Ten Commandants, but under the new covenant set by Jesus, when He was question by the Jewish Authorities regarding Civil Law and Jewish law, " Render unto Cesar what is Cesar's and unto God ,what is God's", if mans laws conflicts with Gods. law then you follow God's law, even knowing full well the consequence's could prove fatal, hence the term martyrdom. The operative word is knowingly, so according to your logic I cannot patronize any store or company that employs anyone of the gay life style as their salary helps them to continue to live as they see fit in the Gay lifestyle,is that right? So then I would be guilty of discrimination by not patronizing the store , kind of a convoluted logic that I obviously disagree with, mainly because that is not the full purpose of that store or company, again hate the sin not the sinner.
  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    My reason for disliking the Indiana law (which is spreading to many other states) is that I believe homosexuality is determined not chosen. Wearing bad clothes is chosen, your biological make up is not. Therefore many people are playing the hand that was dealt to them. Legalizing discrimination is a very bad course of action. Haters are going to hate. Since I don't like the discrimination I hope that those who won't look into a mirror and see their own faults - and chose to hate and discriminate suffer however possible. Financially spiritually morally or however. I sure don't want to spend a damned dollar in a hateful place.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    TJ Wrote: My reason for disliking the Indiana law (which is spreading to many other states) is that I believe homosexuality is determined not chosen. Wearing bad clothes is chosen, your biological make up is not. Therefore many people are playing the hand that was dealt to them. Legalizing discrimination is a very bad course of action. Haters are going to hate. Since I don't like the discrimination I hope that those who won't look into a mirror and see their own faults - and chose to hate and discriminate suffer however possible. Financially spiritually morally or however. I sure don't want to spend a damned dollar in a hateful place.
    Well put, Tony.

    I also dislike it because 'religious freedom' is just a fancy term for state sanctioned discrimination. People have every right to be bigots who want to tell everyone else how to live their lives, but they do not have a right to deny them services in the public sphere. If they want to be able to legally discriminate then all they need to do is build a church. The state can't stop them from doing that, but they should stop them from denying services in the public sphere.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    johnnycee Wrote: I do try and follow all of the laws, like the Ten Commandants, but under the new covenant set by Jesus, when He was question by the Jewish Authorities regarding Civil Law and Jewish law, " Render unto Cesar what is Cesar's and unto God ,what is God's", if mans laws conflicts with Gods. law then you follow God's law, even knowing full well the consequence's could prove fatal, hence the term martyrdom. The operative word is knowingly, so according to your logic I cannot patronize any store or company that employs anyone of the gay life style as their salary helps them to continue to live as they see fit in the Gay lifestyle,is that right? So then I would be guilty of discrimination by not patronizing the store , kind of a convoluted logic that I obviously disagree with, mainly because that is not the full purpose of that store or company, again hate the sin not the sinner.
    J.C. you still don't understand that your buddy "Jesus" never wrote one word; his followers did write whatever came up what fitted their thinking more than 40 years after his death. So stop the B.S. Also "bibles were written by "antique uneducated humans" living in the middle east culture of those days; no one from outerspace was involved, also the world around them consisted only of the middle east and the world was flat ; even Jesus did not know better; nor is it a "law" book; so if you follow any "human" words written in a 1000 year old book; that is your choice, not mine. I prefer to think for myself or follow todays modern science.
  • Democrat
    Philadelphia, PA
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    Dutch Wrote:
    johnnycee Wrote: I do try and follow all of the laws, like the Ten Commandants, but under the new covenant set by Jesus, when He was question by the Jewish Authorities regarding Civil Law and Jewish law, " Render unto Cesar what is Cesar's and unto God ,what is God's", if mans laws conflicts with Gods. law then you follow God's law, even knowing full well the consequence's could prove fatal, hence the term martyrdom. The operative word is knowingly, so according to your logic I cannot patronize any store or company that employs anyone of the gay life style as their salary helps them to continue to live as they see fit in the Gay lifestyle,is that right? So then I would be guilty of discrimination by not patronizing the store , kind of a convoluted logic that I obviously disagree with, mainly because that is not the full purpose of that store or company, again hate the sin not the sinner.
    J.C. you still don't understand that your buddy "Jesus" never wrote one word; his followers did write whatever came up what fitted their thinking more than 40 years after his death. So stop the B.S. Also "bibles were written by "antique uneducated humans" living in the middle east culture of those days; no one from outerspace was involved, also the world around them consisted only of the middle east and the world was flat ; even Jesus did not know better; nor is it a "law" book; so if you follow any "human" words written in a 1000 year old book; that is your choice, not mine. I prefer to think for myself or follow todays modern science.
    I do not consider Jesus my buddy, I believe that Jesus is my Savior, nothing less, nothing more, which of course is vastly different from a being a buddy. The Authors of the Scriptures first spoke of things to come and what to look out for, certain signs and symbols that were related to the particular theory of the early Church, in this case the Hebrew Faith, as time evolved ,it seemed to some that having a written Word would be better so as not have to many versions of the same story being told and sometimes re-told with oft times a different slant to the story. The Apostles and others decided to put to words what they witnessed so as to keep the narrative true to the event, Paul, whom many believe is the real backbone of the early Christian Church because of his conversion and his evangelizing , Paul, who was a Roman citizen , and was educated and also , was a government official, a self proclaimed crusader who mission was to oust the early followers of Jesus and bring them to trial, so the early authors were not uneducated humans, BTW, no one knows what Jesus knew or didn't know about the world and He only told his followers about the World awaiting them after their time on this planet was done. The Books Of Holy Scriptures, whether it be the Talmud, or the Koran or the Holy Bible are Laws written for the followers to obey , abet Spiritual Ones , but none then less valid as the Civil Laws of Society only with greater penalties. It is not my choice to follow the teachings of Jesus, but rather it is Man's choice to not follow the teachings..
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    johnnycee Wrote:
    Dutch Wrote:
    johnnycee Wrote: I do try and follow all of the laws, like the Ten Commandants, but under the new covenant set by Jesus, when He was question by the Jewish Authorities regarding Civil Law and Jewish law, " Render unto Cesar what is Cesar's and unto God ,what is God's", if mans laws conflicts with Gods. law then you follow God's law, even knowing full well the consequence's could prove fatal, hence the term martyrdom. The operative word is knowingly, so according to your logic I cannot patronize any store or company that employs anyone of the gay life style as their salary helps them to continue to live as they see fit in the Gay lifestyle,is that right? So then I would be guilty of discrimination by not patronizing the store , kind of a convoluted logic that I obviously disagree with, mainly because that is not the full purpose of that store or company, again hate the sin not the sinner.
    J.C. you still don't understand that your buddy "Jesus" never wrote one word; his followers did write whatever came up what fitted their thinking more than 40 years after his death. So stop the B.S. Also "bibles were written by "antique uneducated humans" living in the middle east culture of those days; no one from outerspace was involved, also the world around them consisted only of the middle east and the world was flat ; even Jesus did not know better; nor is it a "law" book; so if you follow any "human" words written in a 1000 year old book; that is your choice, not mine. I prefer to think for myself or follow todays modern science.
    I do not consider Jesus my buddy, I believe that Jesus is my Savior, nothing less, nothing more, which of course is vastly different from a being a buddy. The Authors of the Scriptures first spoke of things to come and what to look out for, certain signs and symbols that were related to the particular theory of the early Church, in this case the Hebrew Faith, as time evolved ,it seemed to some that having a written Word would be better so as not have to many versions of the same story being told and sometimes re-told with oft times a different slant to the story. The Apostles and others decided to put to words what they witnessed so as to keep the narrative true to the event, Paul, whom many believe is the real backbone of the early Christian Church because of his conversion and his evangelizing , Paul, who was a Roman citizen , and was educated and also , was a government official, a self proclaimed crusader who mission was to oust the early followers of Jesus and bring them to trial, so the early authors were not uneducated humans, BTW, no one knows what Jesus knew or didn't know about the world and He only told his followers about the World awaiting them after their time on this planet was done. The Books Of Holy Scriptures, whether it be the Talmud, or the Koran or the Holy Bible are Laws written for the followers to obey , abet Spiritual Ones , but none then less valid as the Civil Laws of Society only with greater penalties. It is not my choice to follow the teachings of Jesus, but rather it is Man's choice to not follow the teachings..
    J.C I just sent an e-mail to "Jesus.Com" he answered it is "god's will" now yr happy? La la land welcomes you; booked a trip to Mars yet?
  • Liberal
    Independent
    Durham, NH
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    You had better believe JC is your savior Johnny, 'cuz you're gunna need savin' when the time comes, for sure!