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"Nyah, nyah, I can't hear you!"

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  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    We have discussed and argued torture of Muslims in at least a couple of threads in this website, and we have discussed and argued racism and police brutality in other threads, so I don't propose to use this thread to argue those specific talking points again. Rather as the title of this post implies, for those of us who have posted fact based arguments in this website and had them quickly dismissed by others, this opinion article in Al Jazeera should interest you.

    "Nyah, nyah, I can't hear you" is another way of describing cognitive dissonance. Dexter Thomas uses that expression to describe Rep Peter King's dismissive reasoning for why Eric Garner really died or why torture of Muslim prisoners was not really torture. Quoting Thomas: "It is the rhetorical equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears, and shouting "nyah, nyah, I can't hear you" - as your brother drowns beside you."

    Dexter Thomas, Al Jazeera, December 14, 2014: Torturing Muslims is an 'awesome' way to get things done

    Read Thomas's entire article and ask yourself if you can really understand and empathize with his points. Or will you say, "nyah, nyah"? It will reveal a lot about yourself. Here's the concluding paragraph from Thomas's article.

    "The events of the past few months have shown us that we are not up against a few crooked cops, a group of rogue rednecks, or a wacky news station. We are up against an empire of immorality that, in its fear, would rather shoot and waterboard the world, than to learn about it. If there is a true "enemy", it is that Empire. It has been hiding in plain sight, and this year, it has revealed itself - in the mirror. As Tantaros says, it laughs at us."

    I am not laughing.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Schmidt Wrote: We have discussed and argued torture of Muslims in at least a couple of threads in this website, and we have discussed and argued racism and police brutality in other threads, so I don't propose to use this thread to argue those specific talking points again. Rather as the title of this post implies, for those of us who have posted fact based arguments in this website and had them quickly dismissed by others, this opinion article in Al Jazeera should interest you.

    "Nyah, nyah, I can't hear you" is another way of describing cognitive dissonance. Dexter Thomas uses that expression to describe Rep Peter King's dismissive reasoning for why Eric Garner really died or why torture of Muslim prisoners was not really torture. Quoting Thomas: "It is the rhetorical equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears, and shouting "nyah, nyah, I can't hear you" - as your brother drowns beside you."

    Dexter Thomas, Al Jazeera, December 14, 2014: Torturing Muslims is an 'awesome' way to get things done

    Read Thomas's entire article and ask yourself if you can really understand and empathize with his points. Or will you say, "nyah, nyah"? It will reveal a lot about yourself. Here's the concluding paragraph from Thomas's article.

    "The events of the past few months have shown us that we are not up against a few crooked cops, a group of rogue rednecks, or a wacky news station. We are up against an empire of immorality that, in its fear, would rather shoot and waterboard the world, than to learn about it. If there is a true "enemy", it is that Empire. It has been hiding in plain sight, and this year, it has revealed itself - in the mirror. As Tantaros says, it laughs at us."

    I am not laughing.
    Schmidt; yes indeed my feeling as well. I guess the point is of all the things happening lately; something has to give in the end. In the past you could start a World War to reshuffle and start over; that is no longer the case, so world frustrations can no longer be vented that way; so I guess we all have to become lunatics and then eventually drop the "bomb" when we are "high" on something.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Schmidt Wrote: Read Thomas's entire article and ask yourself if you can really understand and empathize with his points. Or will you say, "nyah, nyah"? It will reveal a lot about yourself. Here's the concluding paragraph from Thomas's article.
    I whole heatedly understand and empathize with his points. Sometimes we have to be honest with ourselves and not just wave our flag and chant USA! USA! Ms. Tantaros rant was laughable if it weren't for the fact that her viewers soaked that crap up and were undoubtedly nodding their heads in agreement. To them America can do no wrong and anyone who dares to question our police murdering unarmed citizens or our government torturing people at top secret 'black sites' is a traitorous asshole who must be silenced. How dare anyone question the wisdom of a police state or torturing prisoners?

    We must always remember that "[t]he United States of America is awesome, we are awesome!"

    Schmidt Wrote: "The events of the past few months have shown us that we are not up against a few crooked cops, a group of rogue rednecks, or a wacky news station. We are up against an empire of immorality that, in its fear, would rather shoot and waterboard the world, than to learn about it. If there is a true "enemy", it is that Empire. It has been hiding in plain sight, and this year, it has revealed itself - in the mirror. As Tantaros says, it laughs at us."
    The bold sentence couldn't encompass my thoughts any more perfectly. We are having a crisis of values in this country. We no longer live to our stated ideals. It can be argued that we have never lived up to our stated ideals, but that is an argument for another discussion. It's almost like we are collectively sticking our heads in the sand and saying 'nothing to see here folks, everything is all peaches and cream.'
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Again Jared and Schmidt, I said so a hell of a long time ago, but I was laughed at, anyway glad you both see it correctly. I even see now more flags on trucks and cars, which proves yours and my point.
  • Liberal
    Other Party
    Llos Angeles, CA
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    I don't believe we have ever lived up to our "stated ideas"..... we just bullied everybody, no one noticed or fought back.....the world has changed; not enough to go around after we've taken our share......but that's also changing. It's going to get interesting
  • Democrat
    Philadelphia, PA
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    L.A. Citizen Wrote: I don't believe we have ever lived up to our "stated ideas"..... we just bullied everybody, no one noticed or fought back.....the world has changed; not enough to go around after we've taken our share......but that's also changing. It's going to get interesting


    Being the big guy on the block seems to almost always involve becoming a bully of sorts, all of the Reigns have done this, England, Spain, the Turks, Etc, now we are no longer the biggest guy on the block ,, our military has shrunk, our economy is tanking world wide, and both of our white hats and white steeds are to badly stained to claim a higher moral standard, so yes it is going to get interesting.,
  • Liberal
    Other Party
    Llos Angeles, CA
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    johnnycee Wrote:
    L.A. Citizen Wrote: I don't believe we have ever lived up to our "stated ideas"..... we just bullied everybody, no one noticed or fought back.....the world has changed; not enough to go around after we've taken our share......but that's also changing. It's going to get interesting


    Being the big guy on the block seems to almost always involve becoming a bully of sorts, all of the Reigns have done this, England, Spain, the Turks, Etc, now we are no longer the biggest guy on the block ,, our military has shrunk, our economy is tanking world wide, and both of our white hats and white steeds are to badly stained to claim a higher moral standard, so yes it is going to get interesting.,
    Yes, most definitely......the world was built on imperialism. And yes, I am a gluttonous American pig. As my grandfather always told me, "the tides will always turn" I'm just here for the ride
  • Independent
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    the faux noise news blatherer simply is immersed in narrative and any narrative that is in opposition must be defeated, removed, overcome because to analyze the opposing narrative would require critical thinking and suspension of her belief system. this will not happen and in fact that is the case for the overwhelming majority of the population.

    all empires, and, yes, we are an empire, suffer from decline at some point. kevin phillips noted that when empires turn to financialization with the rise of rentiers that said empire is declining. his book "american theocracy" discusses this in some detail. to me the decline of the empire started before i was born which was in 1956. the publication of nsc-68 and the rise of permanent war in the form of the cold war and the doctrine of containment at any point of contact between the so-called free world and the communist empire was the high water mark of the empire. to be sure the u.s. economy stood unparalleled for several more decades but the empire itself was shown to be on a foundation of sand because the military was dealt setbacks almost immediately in korea followed by vietnam. the minor incursions of panama (almost a cock-up), bosnia (almost a cock-up), somalia (a cock-up) and grenada (almost a cock-up) were symptomatic but ignored. the so-called kicking of vietnam from the psyche of the military by bush1 in the first gulf war was premature as there was no division between gulf war 1 and gulf war 2. a state of conflict, if low level, existed the entire time between the two wars. thus afganistan and iraq exposed the military as being unable to provide the foundational structure that past empires and the current u.s. empire require to maintain their position. a military composed of massive standing forces is ill-prepared to fight insurrections and urban guerrilla war. in point of opinion it will never be capable of engaging in such actions successfully.

    so we have an empire whose heyday was very short attempting to keep its hold on the top spot. agitprop is used to reinforce the narrative of exceptionalism. its success is uneven. when examples of torture by military and militarized police, another sign of decline, are shown by media the population must needs fall into cognitive dissonance unless they are by nature skeptical, cynical or capable of creative and critical thinking. unfortunately most of the population is not.

    the empire is declining. nothing anyone says or does can change that. what can be dealt with is the landing. will it be soft or crash? imo, with the election of rah-rah-istic politicians in the back pockets of rentiers the decision has been made.

    it will be crash.
  • Liberal
    Independent
    Durham, NH
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    I'm just waiting for the Emperor to put his clothes back on and face reality about what this country is really like, where it's been and where it's going. The Emperor I'm referring to ISN'T Obama, by the way, it's the American public!
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    pgr Wrote: I'm just waiting for the Emperor to put his clothes back on and face reality about what this country is really like, where it's been and where it's going. The Emperor I'm referring to ISN'T Obama, by the way, it's the American public!
    Lonely & PGR, right on. I said many times the culture has to change; " money" or baseball should not be the sole "god" in this country; Neither the churches or the Pentagon.
  • Independent
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    pgr Wrote: I'm just waiting for the Emperor to put his clothes back on and face reality about what this country is really like, where it's been and where it's going. The Emperor I'm referring to ISN'T Obama, by the way, it's the American public!
    please don't hold your breath, pgr. it ain't gonna happen.
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Evidence of our moral decline? Look at the latest polls on torture. A majority of Americans (depending on the poll) think the CIA sanctioned torture was justified. And 76 percent of Republicans support that premise.

    I wonder though. Is it their belief that torture extracts critical information needed to make our country safe and doesn't cause undue harm to the individual? Or is it also the feeling of the need to inflict punishment and pain on those responsible for 9/11. If revenge is the motive and they get some kind of sadistic pleasure in reading about the torture methods used, then it speaks poorly for our ideals and moral standing in the world. Is Dick Cheney's worldview also their worldview? Scary thought.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/16/torture-justified-poll_n_6333278.html
  • Independent
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    Schmidt Wrote: Evidence of our moral decline? Look at the latest polls on torture. A majority of Americans (depending on the poll) think the CIA sanctioned torture was justified. And 76 percent of Republicans support that premise.

    I wonder though. Is it their belief that torture extracts critical information needed to make our country safe and doesn't cause undue harm to the individual? Or is it also the feeling of the need to inflict punishment and pain on those responsible for 9/11. If revenge is the motive and they get some kind of sadistic pleasure in reading about the torture methods used, then it speaks poorly for our ideals and moral standing in the world. Is Dick Cheney's worldview also their worldview? Scary thought.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/16/torture-justified-poll_n_6333278.html
    imo it is the need to inflict pain/punishment. here is where "the other" comes in. in the eyes of those who responded in the polls that torture is justified those who caused and carried out 9/11 are by definition sub-human and therefore not deserving of consideration applied to other humans. one would also say that exceptionalism plays a role in that since we are exceptional our acts are above reproach. especially when said acts are most definitely not above reproach.
  • Democrat
    Missouri
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    Here's a scenario to consider: Intelligence has strong evidence a nuclear weapon is planted in a major city in America. What do you do when you have captured suspects knowing to be involved? A weapon of this massive destruction power can kill millions. What do you do with the suspects? Torture does have an advantage in extracting intelligence. Remember, time passing is against you, so what do you do with the suspects? For once, I agree with SCOTUS Justice Scalia that in writing on the legality in the use of torture, used the very same scenario. I do not often agree with Justice Scalia, but his instance he made perfect sense. The sensible people involved with extracting useful information would use every means possible with every conceivable means of torture at their will. The suspects, I'm afraid were suffer a great deal of pain and psychological damage as a result of the people in charge of extracting information. I agree several suspects suffering while millions are threatened is no caparison in humane treatment of our society. Those suspects will suffer and hopefully they will divulge convincing stories that could lead to saving Americans from destruction. How would you even think of anything less? Torture does have it's contribution in saving lives.

    With that written above, the next question to answer is how would torture be approved and in what scenarios is it not approved? How about knowing where a school of children is threatened and law enforcement is holding suspects that have evidence of crimes against children? How about a large shopping mall where much devastation and lives lost? If law enforcement or our military has evidence they should have the freedom to use what ever is necessary to stop the evil and potential devastation to society and it's people. Torture does have its place as a tool in extracting information of attacks in our world.

    I do agree that some torture examples show that it may have been overused and not necessary. 9-11 brought out a great emotional outpouring of people against the Islamic world and it taught many of us that it was not Islam that did this, it was militant irrationals organized on their own social beliefs. I will support torture for use in the world where there is a need to stop the overwhelming murder of peaceful existence. I will support law enforcement and the military to use whatever means is necessary to stop the overwhelming murder of peaceful existence. Our biggest problem is defining the rules of allowing torture to be used and in what capacity of crimes. America is not the only country that believes this. Most of the world countries have their own rules and torture tactics to use on suspected criminals.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    AmcmurryFreedom Wrote: Here's a scenario to consider: Intelligence has strong evidence a nuclear weapon is planted in a major city in America. What do you do when you have captured suspects knowing to be involved? A weapon of this massive destruction power can kill millions. What do you do with the suspects? Torture does have an advantage in extracting intelligence. Remember, time passing is against you, so what do you do with the suspects? For once, I agree with SCOTUS Justice Scalia that in writing on the legality in the use of torture, used the very same scenario. I do not often agree with Justice Scalia, but his instance he made perfect sense. The sensible people involved with extracting useful information would use every means possible with every conceivable means of torture at their will. The suspects, I'm afraid were suffer a great deal of pain and psychological damage as a result of the people in charge of extracting information. I agree several suspects suffering while millions are threatened is no caparison in humane treatment of our society. Those suspects will suffer and hopefully they will divulge convincing stories that could lead to saving Americans from destruction. How would you even think of anything less? Torture does have it's contribution in saving lives.

    With that written above, the next question to answer is how would torture be approved and in what scenarios is it not approved? How about knowing where a school of children is threatened and law enforcement is holding suspects that have evidence of crimes against children? How about a large shopping mall where much devastation and lives lost? If law enforcement or our military has evidence they should have the freedom to use what ever is necessary to stop the evil and potential devastation to society and it's people. Torture does have its place as a tool in extracting information of attacks in our world.

    I do agree that some torture examples show that it may have been overused and not necessary. 9-11 brought out a great emotional outpouring of people against the Islamic world and it taught many of us that it was not Islam that did this, it was militant irrationals organized on their own social beliefs. I will support torture for use in the world where there is a need to stop the overwhelming murder of peaceful existence. I will support law enforcement and the military to use whatever means is necessary to stop the overwhelming murder of peaceful existence. Our biggest problem is defining the rules of allowing torture to be used and in what capacity of crimes. America is not the only country that believes this. Most of the world countries have their own rules and torture tactics to use on suspected criminals.
    AMC, may be torture on you may help you to convince that you are wrong all the way; sorry we "asked" for 9/11 because of our behavior in the world.
    We are the country who have committed the most crimes since WWII due to to our invasions all over the place; so be a hypocrite