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Torture of prisoners.....


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    johnnycee Wrote: How is that a red herring, when they are horrified by torture which was stopped 6 years ago but indiscriminate bombing via drone strikes , which continues up until today is okay, so its morally right to not torture but fine to kill them instead with the high price of collateral damage done to civilians and possibly children, how is that a red herring. If someone is going to take the moral high ground on the treatment of terrorists , then you can't justify the ends justifying the means , when it comes to killing suspected terrorist by bombing them, you can of course, but then you will be a hypocrite.

    Rules of an argument - broken down and explained - must reading for most, including: Red Herring

    http://www.virtualschool.edu/mon/SocialConstruction/Logic.html
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    If one is to believe that the reason for the release of this incomplete report was just to alert the world of our serious breech of our moral conduct in this never ending war, then we are indeed attempting to take the moral high ground, which brings the discussion around to all breeches of moral conduct done by the USA. So this reasoning does not fit the definition of a "red herring". Now if there is another reason for alerting the world to this fact,please tell me.
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    johnnycee Wrote: If one is to believe that the reason for the release of this incomplete report was just to alert the world of our serious breech of our moral conduct in this never ending war, then we are indeed attempting to take the moral high ground, which brings the discussion around to all breeches of moral conduct done by the USA. So this reasoning does not fit the definition of a "red herring". Now if there is another reason for alerting the world to this fact,please tell me.
    JC, The report is less than 10% of the over 6000 pages they started with. Although many have selected their parts to focus on..... The ex-head of the CIA said if you didn't interview those who were tortured you can't say a thing. This is an ugly moment for the US. Hopefully we can not have an opportunity to exercise these practices again. In a perfect world..... we will avoid going to war for an extremely long time. I'm all for waiting a couple hundred years or more. I was scanning news on the internet a couple days ago. The story that came out in relation to this report was that Pres. Bush and Cheany purposely misled the US because they were hell bent on going to war with Iraq. What a sad waste of lives (from many different countries) and tax dollars. If I find the story again I'm going to post a link. The truth shall set you free.
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    J.C. sure the world should know that we are no sweethearts but only a bunch of greedy, corrupt, savage flag waving and church going idiots. Like if they did not know that already because of our senseless wars all over the place. We teached as a matter of fact ISIS how to be cruel; just select some US made movies; the more blood and torture the better. I just saw the one on TV where the CIA tortured people to train them to kill via special drugs etc. So J.C. be proud of that.
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    Dutch Wrote: J.C. sure the world should know that we are no sweethearts but only a bunch of greedy, corrupt, savage flag waving and church going idiots. Like if they did not know that already because of our senseless wars all over the place. We teached as a matter of fact ISIS how to be cruel; just select some US made movies; the more blood and torture the better. I just saw the one on TV where the CIA tortured people to train them to kill via special drugs etc. So J.C. be proud of that.




    Dutch, I never said that I was proud of the torture, as much as you can't be proud of the early Dutch slave traders, it is all dependent on the times,, it's not a question of being proud or condoning the actions of the CIA, but the reason for releasing the incomplete report to the world and then attempt to blame a particular political party as the culprit when in fact both political parties are guilty of complicity in the mess that is the burning question.
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    johnnycee Wrote: it's not a question of being proud or condoning the actions of the CIA, but the reason for releasing the incomplete report to the world and then attempt to blame a particular political party as the culprit when in fact both political parties are guilty of complicity in the mess that is the burning question.
    A few things here--

    1) Republicans refused to participate in this report. They boycotted the meetings and didn't attempt to participate. To suggest that it was one sided by choice is a joke. If the Republicans wanted to participate then they could have. They had every ability to do so, so stop saying it was a one sided political hit job. That is simply not true.

    2) This is not an incomplete report. The report is thousands of pages long. They only declassified a fraction of the report for the American public to see. That is not Congresses choice and it is a very complicated process to declassify something that is already deemed classified. President Obama issued an executive order in 2009 determining the process that needs to be done for something to be declassified. I encourage you to read it before continuing to wail against an incomplete report. That, as well, is simply not true.

    3) Both political parties were not responsible for this 'mess.' Democrats had absolutely no say in anything until they took over the House and Senate in 2007, which happens to be after the Black Sites were revealed and after the Supreme Court ruled in Hamdan V Rumsfeld that Article III of the Geneva Conventions applies to all detainees in American custody. Article III covers the rules for housing, feeding, and medical treatment for all prisoners in American custody. So this last argument, as well, is simply not true.
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    johnnycee Wrote: it's not a question of being proud or condoning the actions of the CIA, but the reason for releasing the incomplete report to the world and then attempt to blame a particular political party as the culprit when in fact both political parties are guilty of complicity in the mess that is the burning question.
    A few things here--

    1) Republicans refused to participate in this report. They boycotted the meetings and didn't attempt to participate. To suggest that it was one sided by choice is a joke. If the Republicans wanted to participate then they could have. They had every ability to do so, so stop saying it was a one sided political hit job. That is simply not true.

    2) This is not an incomplete report. The report is thousands of pages long. They only declassified a fraction of the report for the American public to see. That is not Congresses choice and it is a very complicated process to declassify something that is already deemed classified. President Obama issued an executive order in 2009 determining the process that needs to be done for something to be declassified. I encourage you to read it before continuing to wail against an incomplete report. That, as well, is simply not true.

    3) Both political parties were not responsible for this 'mess.' Democrats had absolutely no say in anything until they took over the House and Senate in 2007, which happens to be after the Black Sites were revealed and after the Supreme Court ruled in Hamdan V Rumsfeld that Article III of the Geneva Conventions applies to all detainees in American custody. Article III covers the rules for housing, feeding, and medical treatment for all prisoners in American custody. So this last argument, as well, is simply not true.
    What ever you say, you can't just can't spot BS when it's right there for all to see.
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    johnnycee Wrote: What ever you say, you can't just can't spot BS when it's right there for all to see.
    Are you suggesting that Congress, the branch tasked with making sure the Executive Branch doesn't overreach, should never investigate another branch of our Government that went rogue and decided to make its own rules? Or is Congress only supposed to investigate things if and only if both sides of the aisle agree to it?

    If that's the case, then where is your vitriol against the House Committee on Oversight & Government Reform? Chairman Issa has conducted a plethora of partisan 'investigations' that have cost the taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars. All of these 'investigations' went absolutely nowhere.

    I recall you using the now former Chairman's talking points many times on this website. From 'Fast and Furious' to 'The IRS Scandal' you were championing his 'investigations' on a constant basis. What made you change your mind when Senate Democrats released a report that Senate Republicans boycotted? Why were you championing Chairman Issa's 'investigations' but cry foul when the Senate Intelligence Committee decides to investigate our former President and the CIA for torturing hundreds of people? Your cognitive dissonance is astounding.

    And trust me. I can spot BS from a mile away. I'm typically staring at it on my computer screen.