Forum Thread

Jonathan Gruber

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  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    pgr Wrote: The sad truth is no one has the balls to say "this guy is absolutely correct. The average voter is stupid and typically votes for all the wrong reasons and often against themselves". Why are people so afraid to admit we have an uniformed, confused, misinformed electorate?
    I have zero problem admitting this. We not only have an uninformed and confused electorate, we have an electorate that doesn't even bother showing up in the first place. Anyone who is honest with themselves would say the same thing.
  • Liberal
    Other Party
    Llos Angeles, CA
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    pgr Wrote: The sad truth is no one has the balls to say "this guy is absolutely correct. The average voter is stupid and typically votes for all the wrong reasons and often against themselves". Why are people so afraid to admit we have an uniformed, confused, misinformed electorate?
    I have zero problem admitting this. We not only have an uninformed and confused electorate, we have an electorate that doesn't even bother showing up in the first place. Anyone who is honest with themselves would say the same thing.
    But why can't you say "STUPID"? Voters aren't confused...this isn't a crossword puzzle. Voters choose to be uniformed. STUPID. Even the majority that don't vote always present an articulate reason to why they don't even bother.

    You must be a real nice guy Jared..... But your'e liberalism blinds you. Our Citizenry is STUPID.
  • Liberal
    Independent
    Durham, NH
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    I think you are both correct - it all depends on your life experiences and, obviously, yours are very different!
  • Liberal
    Other Party
    Llos Angeles, CA
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    pr Wrote: I think you are both correct - it all depends on your life experiences and, obviously, yours are very different!
    Correct, but the truth is truth.

    In Prison most blacks would say "it' the crackas fault that theres crack in da hood" These conversations would take place in the law library. In fact theres a new movie out about "Gary Webb" and the south central crack scandal in LA/ Contra scandal. It's about his book featuring "Freeway Rick" who I was in federal prison with. It's about the CIA bringing crack to Los Angeles through Oliver North. Anyway, Gary Webb shot himself couple years ago.

    My response to these guys was "maybe so, but you still picked up the crack and sold it". Not everyone in South central sold crack. It's a shame nobody takes responsibility for their own actions.....Today, the norm is to blame everyone else for your situation. Do any of you rememkber the "TWINKIE DEFENSE"?????? and he won that case. He only did 6 years for killing the councilman in San Francisco.

    It's always the Cracka's Fault. It's the government, it's the state, it's my boss, it's my parole officer, it's my lady.....always someone elses doing and never the self. This is the majority of them , not the miniority.

    Some of my neighbors graduated from USC with exactly the same conditions growing up.........CHOICES
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    remember bird's theorem:

    "we the people" are stupid.

    people are not stupid all of the time nor is everyone stupid about everything nor are they stupid all at the same time. but this plays into narrative again. the people are easily swayed, especially if they wish to be swayed, by narrative. oh, the republicans had no input, bullschlitz. oh, it was done in the dead of night as though it suddenly appeared out of thin air at 1:00 in the morning, bullschlitz.

    people believe what they believe because they have been taught. no one is born innately "hating" anything or anyone. but this "new" uproar underscores how easily manipulated humans are. they are manipulated basically because they want to be manipulated. critical, creative thinking is difficult. and when it comes to our system of government the burdens of citizenship are much more easily kicked to the side of the road in favor of narrative and slogan. it isn't a matter of the ends justifying the means or the people getting what they deserve. it is a matter of there is no alternative that can be done without running counter to the narrative and the people's preconceptions and belief structures.

    for decades the government ran relatively well. until the rise of the weed planted by goldwater, nurtured by reagan and brought to full flower by gingrich. this narrative is that government itself is the problem. the truly unfortunate thing about that is that government cannot be a problem. it is simply a tool much like the claims of the nra that guns don't kill people, people kill people. well the tool that is the government can be used for good or ill. the vietnam war was an example of ill as was much of the u.s. foreign policy after nsc-68. the concept that government is bad inherently goes against exceptionalist narrative since it was the government that allowed for the creation of the united states of exceptional narrative. by attacking the foundation of exceptionalism the rw, and, yes, it is primarily the rw that is responsible, the result is cognitive dissonance. simply listen to the nonsense that seemingly rational or "normal" people spout.

    the aca is flawed. it contains things which i do not like. but is somewhat better than what there was before. perhaps a next step is in the offing. we can hope. but as long as the narrative of exceptionalism exists along with the narrative of government being "the problem" such a next step is unlikely.
  • Liberal
    Independent
    Durham, NH
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    Put very well! Thanks!
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    lonely bird Wrote: remember bird's theorem:

    "we the people" are stupid.

    people are not stupid all of the time nor is everyone stupid about everything nor are they stupid all at the same time. but this plays into narrative again. the people are easily swayed, especially if they wish to be swayed, by narrative. oh, the republicans had no input, bullschlitz. oh, it was done in the dead of night as though it suddenly appeared out of thin air at 1:00 in the morning, bullschlitz.

    people believe what they believe because they have been taught. no one is born innately "hating" anything or anyone. but this "new" uproar underscores how easily manipulated humans are. they are manipulated basically because they want to be manipulated. critical, creative thinking is difficult. and when it comes to our system of government the burdens of citizenship are much more easily kicked to the side of the road in favor of narrative and slogan. it isn't a matter of the ends justifying the means or the people getting what they deserve. it is a matter of there is no alternative that can be done without running counter to the narrative and the people's preconceptions and belief structures.

    for decades the government ran relatively well. until the rise of the weed planted by goldwater, nurtured by reagan and brought to full flower by gingrich. this narrative is that government itself is the problem. the truly unfortunate thing about that is that government cannot be a problem. it is simply a tool much like the claims of the nra that guns don't kill people, people kill people. well the tool that is the government can be used for good or ill. the vietnam war was an example of ill as was much of the u.s. foreign policy after nsc-68. the concept that government is bad inherently goes against exceptionalist narrative since it was the government that allowed for the creation of the united states of exceptional narrative. by attacking the foundation of exceptionalism the rw, and, yes, it is primarily the rw that is responsible, the result is cognitive dissonance. simply listen to the nonsense that seemingly rational or "normal" people spout.

    the aca is flawed. it contains things which i do not like. but is somewhat better than what there was before. perhaps a next step is in the offing. we can hope. but as long as the narrative of exceptionalism exists along with the narrative of government being "the problem" such a next step is unlikely.
    The government in this country has gotten a certain kind of "cancer"; it used to be a semi healthy organization; the "cancer" began by "eating" the wrong things like "money". Furthermore no "medicine" will cure it other than strict "term limits" and "voting" with very small "cholestorol" free money. But the patient still may need a few "chemo" treatments and lots of exercise to recover.
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    i suggest reading mann and ornstein's "worse than it looks: how the american constitutional system collided withe the new politics of extremism". in it they discuss various ideas for addressing the problem. term limits is not one of them. term limits did not bring in an influx of "citizen legislators" as hoped for by reformers. instead the authors focus on things done in other developed democracies which have better functioning governments. I have not finished the book yet being about 2/3 through it but i heartily recommend it.
  • Liberal
    Other Party
    Llos Angeles, CA
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    lonely bird Wrote: i suggest reading mann and ornstein's "worse than it looks: how the american constitutional system collided withe the new politics of extremism". in it they discuss various ideas for addressing the problem. term limits is not one of them. term limits did not bring in an influx of "citizen legislators" as hoped for by reformers. instead the authors focus on things done in other developed democracies which have better functioning governments. I have not finished the book yet being about 2/3 through it but i heartily recommend it.
    Extremism doesn't exist. It's an excuse for other agendas. They feed of the "idiots" (us) emotions (subjectivism) and use it for their own purposes. Most of these politicians don't believe in god. Are you kidding me? If "God" can keep them in office then they will play that card.

    This is all an illusion...the magician is in the room. The Kings v. the peasants.

    Never make excuses for people. You are who you are because you choose to be that way. If you have enough sense to wake up, make your bed, tie your shoes, and cook breakfast....you also have the ability to reason. You choose not to. One must change their worldview in order to effectuate change....but that requires thinking. Not here..............gone fishing
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    lonely bird Wrote: i suggest reading mann and ornstein's "worse than it looks: how the american constitutional system collided withe the new politics of extremism". in it they discuss various ideas for addressing the problem. term limits is not one of them. term limits did not bring in an influx of "citizen legislators" as hoped for by reformers. instead the authors focus on things done in other developed democracies which have better functioning governments. I have not finished the book yet being about 2/3 through it but i heartily recommend it.
    lonely bird -- Thanks for the book suggestion. As one who has read several books on our political divide, I started reading books by psychologists and social scientists. George Lakoff's 2009 book, The Political Mind was an eye opener. The major point that 98 percent of what we think and do is "reflexive" or unconscious...only about 2 percent would fall into a critical thinking category or "reflective thinking". That 98 percent is partially a result of our genes but also our life's experiences...we are all captive of our experiences. We vote our emotions.

    Another book that I would recommend along that line is Hibbing et al's 2013 book, Predisposed. The authors describe how our biological make-up (including our DNA) predisposes us to see the world in different ways without necessarily considering facts. Our environment and life experiences can enhance or suppress these tendencies.

    Both books make recommendations of how to cope in our political environment by understanding how the other person thinks, but my observation is that liberals and centrists are perhaps better at this. The right wing extremists are beyond rational critical thinking or understanding. As one who has campaigned door-to-door for Obama and other candidates, most people are unwilling to change their mindsets or are largely one issue voters with little accurate knowledge of the other issues affecting them...especially economic. I guess the politically correct term is "low information voter" rather than stupid.
  • Liberal
    Independent
    Durham, NH
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    lonely bird Wrote: i suggest reading mann and ornstein's "worse than it looks: how the american constitutional system collided withe the new politics of extremism". in it they discuss various ideas for addressing the problem. term limits is not one of them. term limits did not bring in an influx of "citizen legislators" as hoped for by reformers. instead the authors focus on things done in other developed democracies which have better functioning governments. I have not finished the book yet being about 2/3 through it but i heartily recommend it.
    I've read it and it is excelent, if not depressing.
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    oops. mistake.
  • Independent
    Campbellsport, WI
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    L.A. Citizen Wrote:I'm still an asshole
    OK... You convinced me.
  • Liberal
    Other Party
    Llos Angeles, CA
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    Dialogue Wrote:
    L.A. Citizen Wrote:I'm still an asshole
    OK... You convinced me.
    Thank you...I try to take pride in being the biggest ashole on the block. Thanks for the recognition.....maybe someone will place a brown ribbon around my Oak tree.