Forum Thread

Jonathan Gruber

Reply to ThreadDisplaying 1 - 15 of 29 1 2 Next
  • Democrat
    Philadelphia, PA
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    In light of what has been reported by conservative news pundits regarding Professor Gruber's tactics to get the AFC passed and his comments regarding the American Electorate being not smart enough to fully understand the nature of the ACT and that the exploitation of the lack of transparency to the voters is a good thing. Any thoughts?
  • Liberal
    Independent
    Durham, NH
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    He's 100% correct! Too bad more people wouldn't point this fact out public ally.
  • Democrat
    Philadelphia, PA
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    Do you believe that the ends justify the means?
  • Liberal
    Other Party
    Llos Angeles, CA
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    And here I thought "STUPID" citizenry would have been more angry about not having healthcare.....Yup,,,,, he was right on the money.
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    Considering that our lawmakers had countless sessions during the summer and fall of 2009 to go over every aspect of this proposed law, how is it that that Republicans can escape any kind of criticism if they claim they were fooled? This is less a reflection on our citizenry who would not have had opportunities to read and digest this law. That's where they trust their elected officials to do their job. Maybe Republicans were too busy looking at ways to sabotage the whole effort and didn't pay attention to what they should have been doing.
  • Liberal
    Independent
    Durham, NH
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    johnnycee Wrote: Do you believe that the ends justify the means?
    Sometimes it does - especially if there is no other means. In fact, this is one of the (many) faults Dems have. Rebubs will do anything to justify their end goals where as Dems just keep telling themselves "We have to work within the system". Well, the system doesn't always work!
  • Independent
    Campbellsport, WI
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    Schmidt Wrote: Considering that our lawmakers had countless sessions during the summer and fall of 2009 to go over every aspect of this proposed law, how is it that that Republicans can escape any kind of criticism if they claim they were fooled? This is less a reflection on our citizenry who would not have had opportunities to read and digest this law. That's where they trust their elected officials to do their job. Maybe Republicans were too busy looking at ways to sabotage the whole effort and didn't pay attention to what they should have been doing.
    Schmidt,

    Counting myself among those "stupid Americans" who were formerly fooled by lies put forth by dishonest people, It won't work this time! The truth is, this bill was written with Nancy, Harry and Barack's people in one room, A 6 inch thick licked steel door in between, and Republicans on the outside. They had no input therefore no responsibility therefore no criticism. If any of this bill worked, would you be willing to give them credit??? Not in a million years and you know it.

    Former liberal,

    Chad
  • Liberal
    Other Party
    Llos Angeles, CA
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    Dialogue Wrote:
    Schmidt Wrote: Considering that our lawmakers had countless sessions during the summer and fall of 2009 to go over every aspect of this proposed law, how is it that that Republicans can escape any kind of criticism if they claim they were fooled? This is less a reflection on our citizenry who would not have had opportunities to read and digest this law. That's where they trust their elected officials to do their job. Maybe Republicans were too busy looking at ways to sabotage the whole effort and didn't pay attention to what they should have been doing.
    Schmidt,

    Counting myself among those "stupid Americans" who were formerly fooled by lies put forth by dishonest people, It won't work this time! The truth is, this bill was written with Nancy, Harry and Barack's people in one room, A 6 inch thick licked steel door in between, and Republicans on the outside. They had no input therefore no responsibility therefore no criticism. If any of this bill worked, would you be willing to give them credit??? Not in a million years and you know it.

    Former liberal,

    Chad
    Hmmm, you mean the lies that extended healthcare to millions of more people. Romneycare, Bamacare, Mymommascare.

    Now, in saying that you were fooled before you may be implying that you were wrong. So, are you right now? or coiuld you still be wrong?


    Or, could you really not even know how to think because all your thinking has been done for you your whole life?
    You see, I'm like you....I used to be an asshole...no wait...I'm still an asshole
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    Dialogue Wrote:Counting myself among those "stupid Americans" who were formerly fooled by lies put forth by dishonest people, It won't work this time! The truth is, this bill was written with Nancy, Harry and Barack's people in one room, A 6 inch thick licked steel door in between, and Republicans on the outside. They had no input therefore no responsibility therefore no criticism. If any of this bill worked, would you be willing to give them credit??? Not in a million years and you know it.
    My, how some people love to rewrite history. Lucky for you, I actually followed the negotiations in real time and would be happy to educate you as to what really happened.

    March 5, 2009-- President Obama holds bipartisan healthcare summit at the White House

    April 21, 2009-- Senate Finance Committee Chairman Democrat Max Baucus and Ranking Member Republican Chuck Grassley hold the first of three meetings on health policy and health care legislation. They held many more 'unofficial' meetings throughout the year.

    July 15, 2009--The Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee passes The Affordable Health Choices Act. The bipartisan bill includes more than 160 Republican amendments.

    Summer of 2009--What became known as the 'Tea Party Protests' "sporadically" pop up throughout the country. I say that in quotes because anyone who has actually studied this movement would understand they were funded by very rich businessmen who are the exact antithesis of what this movement supposedly stands for.

    Ted Kennedy dies.

    Republicans make the calculated decision to do everything in their power to sabotage a bill they were an integral part of from the very beginning.

    September 2009--A bipartisan 'Gang of Six' Senators meet in marathon sessions to try to come to a compromise. The group includes 3 Republicans and 3 Democrats. (Republicans: Mike Enzi, Chuck Grassley, & Olympia Snowe) (Democrats: Max Baucus, Jeff Bingaman, Kent Conrad)

    Fall 2009/Winter 2010--Democrats choose to use budget reconciliation after Republicans walk away from the table.

    So stop this nonsense of saying that the Republicans were shut out of the conversation. They were always part of the conversation and 160 of their amendments were written into the law. Or do 160 amendments qualify as having 'no input therefore no responsibility'? Once again--I encourage you to study up on facts before throwing out this nonsense. It's quite easy to rebut your falsehoods.
  • Liberal
    Independent
    Durham, NH
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    But, but that's not what Rush Limbager or Michael Savage said on their shows! They wouldn't tell lies to their listeners would they?
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    pgr Wrote: But, but that's not what Rush Limbager or Michael Savage said on their shows! They wouldn't tell lies to their listeners would they?
    The really sad thing is that most Republicans, and some supposed Democrats, actually do believe that crap.

    So many people forget things and allow media personalities to rewrite history for them. They have convinced themselves that an alternative reality exists and have extremely short memories as to how things actually happened. This happened four years ago. How in the hell have we allowed the right wing to rewrite history to convince people that Republicans had no say in this legislation? One hundred and sixty of their amendments are in the damn law!

    Just look at the supposed Democrats on this very site who spit out falsehoods about this law and countless other things on a daily basis. They have completely disregarded facts and instead listen to what other people tell them to think. They provide talking points the right wing media machine spews out and try to convince us that they are facts. They do so without actually taking the time to do any research to determine if what they are saying is actually true and then just throw out as many logical fallacies as they can come up with to change the conversation when they are called out on it.

    I encourage all of our members to actually take the time to research how this law was passed. Sure, you can let Hannity, Rush, and Savage tell you what happened, but you can also spend an hour or two and do some research yourself. You just might find out that everything you've been told is wrong and that Republicans actually did have a seat at the table. Republicans actually did get over 160 amendments passed. And Republicans are the ones who want to make sure that you don't have a right to get health insurance.
  • Democrat
    Philadelphia, PA
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    I've read the postings and again we digress about other personalities, the question is "Does the end justify the means", and is the exploitation of the lack of transparency a good thing when it concerns the electorate?
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    johnnycee Wrote: the question is "Does the end justify the means"
    Yes.

    Millions of individuals in this country now have health insurance who were previously denied it. I'd say the end definitely justifies the means for those millions of people. I take it you don't agree and want to take those people's health insurance away?? Or are you like most Republicans who insist they don't want to take anyone's health insurance away, but struggle to explain how you will accomplish that after gutting the law?
    johnnycee Wrote:and is the exploitation of the lack of transparency a good thing when it concerns the electorate?
    Politicians have been exploiting the lack of knowledge of the American public since the day we became a republic. To suggest otherwise shows that you don't understand much at all about our nations history.

    Please remind yourself that this was an adviser. He was one of hundreds, if not thousands, who helped craft this law. He cast no vote and he signed no piece of legislation. Let's stop elevating him to some king maker who personally wrote the law and conned the entire American public.

    And if you insist on going down this path, then let's actually talk about lobbyists who wrote entire laws during the Bush Administration. Where is your vitriol about Cheney's energy task force that wrote the Bush Administration's energy policy for eight years? Or the financial regulation that banking lobbyists wrote for the past two decades? Or the tax code that lobbyists have also written for decades? These are true scandals, but where is your vitriol about any of these? No, you just are upset that an adviser in the Obama Administration said something you and Fox News don't like...
  • Liberal
    Independent
    Durham, NH
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    The sad truth is no one has the balls to say "this guy is absolutely correct. The average voter is stupid and typically votes for all the wrong reasons and often against themselves". Why are people so afraid to admit we have an uniformed, confused, misinformed electorate?
  • Democrat
    Philadelphia, PA
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    PGR, I do agree with you because I have seen it way to often as an Election Day Judge, so many people come with no idea of what they are doing, most are single issue voters, and if a candidate has 9 good ideas and 1 not so good idea, these voters would not vote him because of that 1 idea, conversely if he had 9 not so good ideas but 1 good idea that these voters identify with, guess what happens, they would vote for him. So yes these voters are stupid!