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ISIS Problem is a serious mess

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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Dutch Wrote:"Jared" sorry I think he is way too arrogant; he's from the same school as McCain; both are Vietnam buddies.
    Are you able to name one public servant on either side of the aisle who isn't arrogant? Having an exaggerated sense of self is a requirement to participate in our federal government. You might be able to come up with a few local and state officials who aren't arrogant people, but I pretty much guarantee that every single federal official, elected or not, is quite arrogant. It's pretty much a requirement in order for you to be able to work in D.C.

    You are correct that McCain and Kerry both served in Vietnam, but are incorrect that they are Vietnam 'buddies.' McCain was a prisoner of war and went on to become one of our nations top war hawks. It doesn't matter what the issue is, war is always the answer with him. I can come up with hundreds of quotes of McCain calling for us to bomb this country or that country; invade this country or that country.

    On the other hand, Kerry spoke eloquently against the Vietnam War and delivered testimony to Congress as a representative of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. Sure, he voted to authorize the Iraq conflict, but he did so with the caveat that he expected the Bush Administration to build a coalition and get United Nations approval. The Bush Administration decided to go a different route after Secretary Powell's disastrous United Nations speech. It was too late after that.

    Kerry is a great Secretary of State. He would have been a great President, as well.
    "Jared" sorry to say that you do not understand on how the rest of the world sees him; he is a typical American way schooled person, which does not fall good with a lot of countries; because of his body language and manners. It gives an idea to foreign people that he is not a "representative" but more or less a "know it all" arrogant American who wants to dictate and rule the world. Amen
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    Dutch Wrote: "Jared" sorry to say that you do not understand on how the rest of the world sees him; he is a typical American way schooled person, which does not fall good with a lot of countries; because of his body language and manners. It gives an idea to foreign people that he is not a "representative" but more or less a "know it all" arrogant American who wants to dictate and rule the world. Amen
    I didn't know you were privy to the thinking of the worlds foreign leaders. So his body language and manners are why foreign leaders don't like him? What in the world do you mean?

    There's absolutely zero polling, scientific or otherwise, to back up your wild accusations, but there is a 2014 Pew Research poll that was conducted worldwide which seems to directly contradict your accusation. There are quite a few countries who like both America and President Obama. They have done this poll for the past twelve years and America reached its lowest point during the height of W's Administration, but that has rebounded throughout much of the world.

    Just because you personally don't agree with American foreign policy doesn't mean that the entire world looks at us and our representatives as know it all dictators.
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Dutch Wrote: "Jared" sorry to say that you do not understand on how the rest of the world sees him; he is a typical American way schooled person, which does not fall good with a lot of countries; because of his body language and manners. It gives an idea to foreign people that he is not a "representative" but more or less a "know it all" arrogant American who wants to dictate and rule the world. Amen
    I didn't know you were privy to the thinking of the worlds foreign leaders. So his body language and manners are why foreign leaders don't like him? What in the world do you mean?

    There's absolutely zero polling, scientific or otherwise, to back up your wild accusations, but there is a 2014 Pew Research poll that was conducted worldwide which seems to directly contradict your accusation. There are quite a few countries who like both America and President Obama. They have done this poll for the past twelve years and America reached its lowest point during the height of W's Administration, but that has rebounded throughout much of the world.

    Just because you personally don't agree with American foreign policy doesn't mean that the entire world looks at us and our representatives as know it all dictators.
    Sorry my worldwide contacts especially in Europe think that way. Do not forget when you hand out money or privileges to certain countries they are "friendly" to you; once you "invade" them then they are not so friendly anymore, with sometimes the exception of their leaders who get royaly rewarded for their support of our dominance. What would you do if you get a few million; sure you will smile and pat the person on the back. Polls as you should know are either political or hypocritical motivated; always praise/reward your enemy; you may need them for something!!
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    Just on the Dutch news: a whole bunch of Iraqi airforce personel has now joined ISIS; so I wonder when they will steal the first jets. It is getting more and more interesting day by day.
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    Dutch, I saw that too. They said Iraqi pilots will be training Syrians to fly Migs. Unbelievable !

    In another story...... Muslim militants (under a name I had not previously heard) in the Philippines kidnapped one or two German citizens
    because of their support of America in the fight with ISIS. The militants asked for 5 million ransom but settled for a lesser amount
    (according to the news). Philippines ! That's crazy..... I know that Indonesia has a huge population and a lot of Muslims but I didn't know
    the Philippines did as well.

    I think we should pull out of the Middle east and Asia, improve our air defenses, slow down immigration, and build a defensive presence along
    our borders.

    That's different than my previous views but the whole damned world has gone crazy.
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    TJ Wrote: Dutch, I saw that too. They said Iraqi pilots will be training Syrians to fly Migs. Unbelievable !

    In another story...... Muslim militants (under a name I had not previously heard) in the Philippines kidnapped one or two German citizens
    because of their support of America in the fight with ISIS. The militants asked for 5 million ransom but settled for a lesser amount
    (according to the news). Philippines ! That's crazy..... I know that Indonesia has a huge population and a lot of Muslims but I didn't know
    the Philippines did as well.

    I think we should pull out of the Middle east and Asia, improve our air defenses, slow down immigration, and build a defensive presence along
    our borders.

    That's different than my previous views but the whole damned world has gone crazy.
    Yes Tony, I did some work several times for the Philipine airforce; beautiful country; but you are right plenty of Muslims also in Indonesia (Obama went to school there,so you should know) However I never saw there such fanatism as in the Middle east. The Dutch carrier Martin Air uses their fleet each year to carry these people to Mekka; which their religion says they should do. So I heard a lot of stories about these transports; like cooking meals in the walkway on small burners etc. Yeah you are right not to meddle religious wise and defend this country at our borders and have a decent immigration policy.
    But don't worry about the Migs; they are old, difficult to fly and have a short range as well limited defenses for ground to air missiles. I guess it is more or less "publicity"
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    Dutch Wrote: Sorry my worldwide contacts especially in Europe think that way.
    That's the equivalent to someone saying "I'm right because my friend says so." I don't doubt that you have friends in other countries who feel that way. That doesn't mean that is how the rest of the world feels.

    I can call up some of the acquaintances I met while living in Peru and have them tell you the exact opposite. They love America and Americans in Peru. Why? Probably because a hell of a lot of Americans visit there and stimulate their economy and we've never invaded them before. The world is a big place.

    Dutch Wrote: Polls as you should know are either political or hypocritical motivated; always praise/reward your enemy; you may need them for something!!
    There are two different types of polls: scientific and unscientific. Scientific polls are the only ones I pay any attention to and is the poll that I provided a link to. Pew Research is a non partisan think tank that does in-depth polls both in America and throughout the world. Rasmussen, The New York Times, USA Today, and many other polls are far more partisan. You will never see me provide a link to a partisan poll because they are worthless.
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Dutch Wrote: Sorry my worldwide contacts especially in Europe think that way.
    That's the equivalent to someone saying "I'm right because my friend says so." I don't doubt that you have friends in other countries who feel that way. That doesn't mean that is how the rest of the world feels.

    I can call up some of the acquaintances I met while living in Peru and have them tell you the exact opposite. They love America and Americans in Peru. Why? Probably because a hell of a lot of Americans visit there and stimulate their economy and we've never invaded them before. The world is a big place.

    Dutch Wrote: Polls as you should know are either political or hypocritical motivated; always praise/reward your enemy; you may need them for something!!
    There are two different types of polls: scientific and unscientific. Scientific polls are the only ones I pay any attention to and is the poll that I provided a link to. Pew Research is a non partisan think tank that does in-depth polls both in America and throughout the world. Rasmussen, The New York Times, USA Today, and many other polls are far more partisan. You will never see me provide a link to a partisan poll because they are worthless.
    Sure "Jared" we both got our opinions; I'm looking to the US from the "outside" you are looking at it from the "inside" via the censored (all is fantastic in the US, flag waving) media here.
    So I won't argue; except hopefully our foreign policies will change for the better.
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    I agree with Jared. Having lived, worked and traveled overseas, the impressions of the USA by my numerous colleagues and friends has always been favorable. That hasn't changed in my more recent travels. Although foreigners may disagree with our military policies as a whole they do not condemn us citizens for it. In fact, in my last trip I was surprised how much they have adopted many of the American cultural things...music, attire, food, etc. Kentucky Fried Chicken and MacDonalds are very popular.

    For many of us expatriates, we felt we were ambassadors for our country, and conducted ourselves as such. I felt it an honor to be invited into the homes of foreign nationals. Having visited my daughter overseas, I don't see that anything has changed since I retired.

    One can adopt whatever stereotype you want to tag Americans, and the brash loud American tourist may present a negative stereotype. But for the many USAid workers, peace corps volunteers, and yes the military personnel responding to humanitarian crises, the impression of Americans has been and remains positive. There are exceptions, of course,...Russia, Iran, Egypt.
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    "Schmidt" yes I understand you; of course you are popular with all your known friends and relatives; the same here. However I was talking about the US foreign policies as well our interference all over the world. The results are obvious right now. I thought you knew better. Kentucky fried chicken nor Mc Donalds will not change our arrogance.
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    Dutch -- I am quite aware of the causes of unrest in the Middle East, but to put the blame on the USA for every single conflict is a bit of a stretch. Most of the conflicts and wars have economic and religious roots that have little to do with the USA. Certainly our overwhelming support for Israel is a factor, I don't deny that, but the Sunni - Shia conflict within Islam is a also major factor that predates our involvement in the area.

    Likewise, the rise of ISIS, I would argue, has deeper roots than just our meddling. ISIS is not another Sunni-Shia conflict, but rather a kind of "untamed Wahhabism" movement that has it's roots in Saudi Arabia.

    Harsh Brand of Islam Practiced by ISIS Has Roots in Austere Saudi Creed

    Anyone that sees the rise of ISIS as a product of American involvement in the area is wrong. Furthermore, it is for the Muslim countries to solve. In that regard I agree that the USA should minimize their involvement and not get drawn into a wider conflict. It is a no-win situation for us.

    Turkey, Iran and Saudi Arabia need to take a greater role if indeed they fear ISIS.
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    Schmidt Wrote: Dutch -- I am quite aware of the causes of unrest in the Middle East, but to put the blame on the USA for every single conflict is a bit of a stretch. Most of the conflicts and wars have economic and religious roots that have little to do with the USA. Certainly our overwhelming support for Israel is a factor, I don't deny that, but the Sunni - Shia conflict within Islam is a also major factor that predates our involvement in the area.

    Likewise, the rise of ISIS, I would argue, has deeper roots than just our meddling. ISIS is not another Sunni-Shia conflict, but rather a kind of "untamed Wahhabism" movement that has it's roots in Saudi Arabia.

    Harsh Brand of Islam Practiced by ISIS Has Roots in Austere Saudi Creed

    Anyone that sees the rise of ISIS as a product of American involvement in the area is wrong. Furthermore, it is for the Muslim countries to solve. In that regard I agree that the USA should minimize their involvement and not get drawn into a wider conflict. It is a no-win situation for us.

    Turkey, Iran and Saudi Arabia need to take a greater role if indeed they fear ISIS.
    " Schmidt" you keep defending the US; while you know or forgot 9/11; why did they do that? Because they loved us? Also who invaded Iraq/Afghanistan and removed Saddam Hussain? How many civilian lives were lost because of us; their families love us for sure!!
    Under his dictorial reign things where more or less under control. Sure you have become a typical American (the Finn's will be proud of you) and never will take the blame; very disappointing. The mess started already with our Lebanon meddling which did cost a lot of our military lives at that time.
    Also if you think our drones all over create "goodwill" towards us, then you must be dreaming with a big flag on your bed.
    So we never meddled/ bribed/killed anything in this world? Yes ISIS is a product of our meddling in the world and an oposition against our Christian fanatism in the US.
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    Dutch, do you believe the USA is the cataylist for everything bad happening in the Middle East and elsewhere? Certainly our support for Israel has been a factor for much of the hatred against the USA including 9/11. And likewise our war of choice in Iraq. I have never argued those points.

    But if I were to follow your premise, and if the USA had had zero involvement in the Middle East over the last half century, then would all those countries have lived in peace with no internal conflict? All I was pointing out is that the situation is much more complex. You cannot ignore the other factors like the climate change and drought affecting Syria and Egypt, the Great Recession and it's effect on the economic being of its people, especially the young, the years of suppression by strong armed rulers that drove inequality, and of course the internal religious conflicts within Islam.

    Is the Arab Spring launched in Tunisia and spread to Egypt, Libya and Syria a result of USA meddling? That guy who self immolated in Tunisia didn't yell out death to the United States.

    ISIS is a product of inequality, suppression, economic conditions, and religious ideology. Sure they publicly target the USA with beheadings, but their real motives are an Islamic State, and they target and kill fellow Muslims to achieve their goal. You can't pin ISIS on the USA...nor the Arab Spring uprisings. The USA is a convenient scapegoat for many of their actions, but ISIS does not exist because of hatred towards the USA.
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    Schmidt Wrote: Dutch, do you believe the USA is the cataylist for everything bad happening in the Middle East and elsewhere? Certainly our support for Israel has been a factor for much of the hatred against the USA including 9/11. And likewise our war of choice in Iraq. I have never argued those points.

    But if I were to follow your premise, and if the USA had had zero involvement in the Middle East over the last half century, then would all those countries have lived in peace with no internal conflict? All I was pointing out is that the situation is much more complex. You cannot ignore the other factors like the climate change and drought affecting Syria and Egypt, the Great Recession and it's effect on the economic being of its people, especially the young, the years of suppression by strong armed rulers that drove inequality, and of course the internal religious conflicts within Islam.

    Is the Arab Spring launched in Tunisia and spread to Egypt, Libya and Syria a result of USA meddling? That guy who self immolated in Tunisia didn't yell out death to the United States.

    ISIS is a product of inequality, suppression, economic conditions, and religious ideology. Sure they publicly target the USA with beheadings, but their real motives are an Islamic State, and they target and kill fellow Muslims to achieve their goal. You can't pin ISIS on the USA...nor the Arab Spring uprisings. The USA is a convenient scapegoat for many of their actions, but ISIS does not exist because of hatred towards the USA.
    No "schmidt" you got it wrong. Guess who gave all the money and weapons to Egypt; helped the wrong people in Libyia; interferes in Mali, Sudan, attacks in Somalia; make sure it helps Israel to kill thousands of Muslim Palestinians; let alone what they did in Pakistan just to capture Bin Laden; (again an invasion of a sovereign country). Let alone our meddling in the Ukraine (money and weapons); sure blame the Russians; are we any better? We always chose to bribe the leaders; like Maliki which we dumped now; the same in Afghanistan we paid millions to the previous leaders got them elected out and now we have it our way (with new payments) so we can stay another 10 years. Wake up Schmidt,you know better. You are a fantastic researcher; thus you know what is happening (behind the curtains) of which the public is not informed off. Just on the news "the Pentagon is preparing to attack Ebola" If someting is total nutty, then this is it!!! ( Only to "rule" and get more "power" thus a "bigger budget" !!) You've been here a long time but still don't know how it works!! Guess who we help to suppress people; make a list pls.Just a question: has the US ever cared about the common people in Muslim countries? No we only gave the leaders what ever they wanted so they got rich; not the common man. So that created the uprisings and terrorists. Ask Assad (by the Russians), Maliki, Gadaffi, Karzai, Egypt, Afghanistan,Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Quatar, Israel, Lybia (fill in the leaders) etc.
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    There are two trends that I follow globally...inequality and climate change. Inequality is something that we talk about with respect to USA politics, but its effects are global. Inequality leads to social unrest, revolution and often civil war. The Middle East with their strong armed rulers have not done enough to promote the economic well being of their people, and especially the young people who cannot find jobs despite having an education. The Great Recession made their situation even worse.

    The effects of climate change are having devastating effects on the local populations of peoples worldwide, and the Middle East is no exception. Combine the effects of inequality with climate change and you have what is described as a "threat multiplier". The effects on Climate Change are discussed in the following article:

    Center for American Progress: The Arab Spring and Climate Change

    Troy Sternberg of Oxford University investigated the connections between climate events in other parts of the world and social unrest in the Arab world. More specifically, he looks at drought conditions in China, subsequent global wheat shortages, and how those shortages may have influenced the Egyptian uprisings. In his own words, he paints a picture of “how a localized hazard became globalized.”

    Sarah Johnstone and Jeffrey Mazo of the International Institute for Strategic Studies investigate the vulnerability of the Middle East and North Africa region to fluctuations of food supply and prices both globally and locally, and how current and projected climatic changes interact with those phenomena. They conclude that, “The Arab Spring would likely have come one way or another, but the context in which it did is not inconsequential. Global warming may not have caused the Arab Spring, but it may have made it come earlier.”

    As Johnstone and Mazo argued as early as April–May 2011, in an article written just at the outset of the Tunisian and Egyptian revolutions, it was already possible to see that climate change played a role in the complex causality of the revolts spreading across the region. They called it a “threat multiplier.” It significantly increased the interactive effects—and hence the overall impact—of political, economic, religious, demographic, and ethnic forces.

    This concept of a “threat multiplier” is a helpful way to think about climate change and security more broadly. In Syria, for instance, as Femia and Werrell tell us, a combination of “social, economic, environmental and climatic changes … eroded the social contract between citizen and government in the country, strengthened the case for the opposition movement, and irreparably damaged the legitimacy of the Assad regime.”


    In citing these references, I am not dismissing the role of America and Europeans in meddling in their affairs. Dutch is right to say that we do not care about the Muslim well being...it's only about the oil mainly, but in the case of Iraq, a secondary reason was Israel's security. Saddam Hussein was considered a threat to Israel.

    But it's interesting that US oil companies were largely shutout of the oil deal making that followed the conclusion of the Iraq war. Royal Dutch Shell got the plum deal, the Majoon Oil field, one of the largest oil fields in the world. I wonder what it took to swing that deal.