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israel and Palestine were haters

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  • Independent
    Massachusetts
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    No question the long history of the Jews has been horrific persecution. My research (websites) for my book, THE
    JEWISH CONSPIRACY . . .ISN'T gave the impression of almost non-stop burnings and banishings and carnage
    otherwise.
    Having read the Old Testament so carefully, recently, I can't keep the term "payback" out of my thoughts --
    though not as an actual philosophical concept of time-lapse retribution. ( . . . slaughter of :"every
    man, woman, child, and beast ' . . . . over and over and over was what the ancient Israelites did).

    But now we must be concerned about the growing virus of antiSemitism, especially in Europe, though
    infecting our colleges here. Truman was warned, but over-rode everyone in his administration and cabinet
    and the state of Israel was inserted into where it is now and into what was known then would probably result in
    what is there now. Carnage and chaos.
    My analogy: You wake up in the morning and there are teepees being erected on your lawn and in the
    town park and you're told that part of your back yard is to be used for ceremonial dances and your driveway has
    to be plowed-under for corn to be planted . . . . and when you protest and holler your outrage at being
    outed from your property you hear the proclamation THIS IS OUR RIGHT OF RETURN TO OUR HOMELAND.
    And we think it terrible that the Palestinian extremists are firing their rockets and throwing their stones? We'd
    be in full swing of another major production of Manifest Destiny if there were anyone's "RIGHT OF RETURN"
    asserted here.
    But I surely don't deny the need (long overdue) for a Jewish state -- except that Israel is just one of many
    which include Miami and NYC and enclaves smaller elsewhere. But to have a safe haven from slaughter
    and pillage was a humanitarian mandate. But not there. For shouldn't there be a "statute of limitations on the right of
    return" or we'd have religious-based invasions all over the place because, once, they were there and wanna
    be again.
    There was a large, fertile, moderate climate area of Northern Africa, I think with Mediterranean or Atlantic
    seacoast availble back in the late l800s, I think. Sparsely populated. Not the hive of humanity's masses and manias such as
    the Middle-Eastern realm. That alternative had been suggested, I think even investigated and projected with
    some planning. But the ultra-Zionists (such as Theodore Herzl) wanted the whole region that God had given
    his chosen people back some 1500 years before (until the Romans threw them back out to diaspora and
    left but debris of their temple.
    So the present reality should be recognized. Israel is where it is. It isn't going to go away except by nuclear
    removal. And that's unlikely because retaliation would be the secondary dematerialization -- of the attacker.
    But the settlements augment despite UN resolutions and curtailments. And the conditions of the populace
    Palestinian is being decimated proportionate to that incurred by the Jews. And the result of this obvious
    imbalance (of victims, of damage) is . . . . a re-surgence of hatred of Jews now being seen not without
    some validity, as visciously over-reacting against people for the infractions and assaults of militants.
    Ah, but we had to take out Saddam, destroy the whole stability and system of a pretty much "inert"
    country (that had been our prime "proxy" vs. Iran for so long). The result without a Saddam? What we
    see. The sectarian fragmentation.
    And we just let the world-encompassing disequilibrium augment now as a fringe-lunacy makes trouble (Hamas, etc)
    and a loose cannon mentality of God-entitled retribution decimates the population of innocents (aside
    from their socio-political stances).

    Where are the major corporations to step in and make it worth it to both sides to stop the shit and
    share some kind of exploitation of economic mutual advantage?
    For the alternative is going to be, very possibly, the reassembly of that whole-region as a Caliphate,
    thus bringing together under the threat of decapitation, all Islam under one sectarian super-strong.
    And where will poor little Israel be then?
    God help us to not let the Jewish State be realized as a dream of imposition as position -- and like
    in Afghanistan (Russia first, then us) . . . it's pull[-out time . . . . . . failed state stituation .
    op burnings and banishings and carnage
    otherwise.
    Having read the Old Testament so carefully, I can't keep the term "payback" out of my thoughts --
    though not as an actual philosophical concept of time-lapse retribution. ( . . . slaughter of :"every
    man, woman, child, and beast ' . . . . over and over and over ).

    And now we must be concerned about the growing virus of antiSemitism, especially in Europe, though
    infecting our colleges here. Truman was warned, but over-rode everyone in his administration and cabinet and the state of Israel was inserted into where it is now and into what was known then would probably result in
    what is there now. Carnage and chaos.
    My analogy: You wake up in the morning and there are teepees being erected and on your lawn and in the
    town park and you're told that part of your back yard is to be used for ceremonial dances and your driveway has to be plowed-under for corn to be planted . . . . and when you protest and holler your outrage at being
    outed from your property you hear the proclamation THIS IS OUR RIGHT OF RETURN TO OUR HOMELAND.
    And we think it terrible that the Palestinian extremists are firing their rockets and throwing their stones? We'd
    be in full swing of another major production of Manifest Destiny if there were anyone's "RIGHT OF RETURN"
    asserted here.
    But I surely don't deny the need (long overdue) for a Jewish state -- except that Israel is just one of many
    which include Miami and NYC and enclaves smaller elsewhere. But to have a safe haven from slaughter
    and pillage was a humanitarian mandate. But not there. For there's a "statute of limitations on the right of
    return" or we'd have religious-based invasions all over the place because, once, they were there and wanna
    be again.
    There was a large, fertile, moderate climate area of Northern Africa, I think with Mediterranean or Atlantic
    seacoast availble prior to l948. Sparsely populated. Not the hive of humanity masses and maniacs such as
    the Middle-Eastern realm. That alternative had been suggested, I think even investigated and projected with
    some planning. But the ultra-Zionists (such as Theodore Herzl) wanted the whole region that God had given
    his chosen people back some 1500 years before (until the Romans threw them back out to diaspora and
    left but debris of their temple.
    so the present reality should be recognized. Israel is where it is. It isn't going to go away except by nuclear
    removal. And that's unlikely because retaliation would be the secondary dematerialization -- of the attacker.
    But the settlements augment despite UN resolutions and curtailments. And the conditions of the populace
    Palestinian is being decimated proportionate to that incurred by the Jews. And the result of this obvious
    imbalance (of victims, of damage) is . . . . a re-surgence of hatred of Jews now being seen not without
    some validity, as visciously over-reacting against people for the infractions and assaults of militants.
    Ah, but we had to take out Saddam, destroy the whole stability and system of a pretty much "inert"
    country (that had been our prime "proxy" vs. Iran for so long). The result without a Saddam? What we
    see. The sectarian fragmentation.
    And we just let the world-encompassing disequilibrium augment now as a fringe-lunacy makes trouble
    and a loose cannon mentality of God-entitled retribution decimates the population of innocents (aside
    from their socio-political stances).

    Where are the major corporations to step in and make it worth it to both sides to stop the shit and
    share some kind of exploitation of economic mutual advantage?
    For the alternative is going to be, very possibly, the reassembly of that whole-region as a Caliphate,
    thus bringing together under the threat of decapitation, all Islam under one sectarian super-strong.
    And where will poor little Israel be then?
    God help us to not let the Jewish State be realized as a dream of imposition as position -- and like
    in Afghanistan (Russia first, then us) . . . it's pull[-out time . . . . . . failed state stituation .
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    alongcameschneider --

    First as a suggestion you might want to edit your post to remove the duplicate versions...I suppose you edited one version and forgot to remove the other. Okay that's just a picky point. I agree with most everything you say, and I like your analogy to teepees. I might even go further and suggest that since there is good evidence that the Neanderthals occupied areas of Palestine some 150,000 years ago, that humans carrying the Neanderthal DNA should have the right to return.

    Okay, that's preposterous but I just wanted to make a point.

    A while back, some in the Jewish community conducted DNA studies to prove their case that Jewish people originated in current day Palestine, parts of which are now Israel. However, those studies did not make their case. As shown in the graph of this Epiphenom article, The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians,

    "Jewish lineages essentially bracket Muslim Kurds, but they were also very closely related to Palestinians. In fact, what their analysis suggested was that Palestinians were identical to Jews, but with a small mix of Arab genes...So, as far as male lineage goes, the genetic story is very clear. Palestinians and Jews are virtually indistinguishable."

    "Women are a bit more tricky...Up until last year, the matrilineal heritage of Jews also seemed pretty clear. Analysis of elements in mitochondrial DNA (which is passed from mother to daughter) seemed to show that Jewish populations around Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East were derived from at least 8 unrelated 'founding mothers'. Where they came from wasn't clear, but the most likely explanation was that they were from local populations that bred with immigrant Jewish males. Their offspring became absorbed into the Jewish community. "


    Another article in Science Daily says much the same thing. "Analysis of DNA samples has shown that on the female line, the Ashkenazim [term largely used for Jews in eastern Europe] are descended not from the Near East but from southern and western Europe."

    Okay...the "Right of Return" based on ethnicity is easily debunked...or at the least, what little DNA can be traced back to their Semitic people in Palestine, doesn't trump the much stronger case of DNA of the local indigenous populations of both Palestinians and Jews that never left the area. On that basis the indigenous Palestinians have as much right to the land as the indigenous Jews. But the waves of Jewish immigrants that came illegally to Palestine as a part of various "Aliyahs" starting in 1882 certainly cannot claim the Right to Return based on ethnicity.

    For the history buffs, here are the facts:

    First Aliyah: 1882 - 1903: 35,000 Jews immigrate to Palestine from Eastern Europe
    Second Aliyah: 1904 - 1914: 40,000 Jewish immigrants arrive in Palestine, mainly from Russia
    Third Aliyah: 1919-1923: 35,000 Jewish immigrants mainly from Russia, Poland, and Lithuania
    Fourth Aliyah: 1924-1930: 80,000 Jews escaping from Poland immigrate to Palestine
    Fifth Aliyah: 1931-1939: 225,000 escaping the central and eastern Europe Holocaust immigrate to Palestine

    The 1940s saw many additional thousands of Jews escaping Europe for Palestine. During this entire period, while the initial Aliyahs were not met with much hostility, as the numbers of Jewish "illegal immigrants" grew, the hostilities also grew. The militant Zionist group, Irgun, had its roots in this period, and they are responsible for several massacres of whole Palestinian villages. I highly recommend Ilan Pappe's book, The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, for anyone that wants to read the history of these conflicts.

    From the Amazon review: "The renowned Israeli historian revisits the formative period of the State of Israel. Between 1947 and 1949, over 400 Palestinian villages were deliberately destroyed, civilians were massacred, and around a million men, women, and children were expelled from their homes at gunpoint. Denied for almost six decades, had it happened today it could only have been called "ethnic cleansing"."

    Note also that much of this occurred before the United Nations sanctified the State of Israel.

    And it didn't stop with statehood. Ariel Sharon has the well earned label "Butcher of Sabra and Chatila" for the butchery that he carried out against women and children in these communities during the 1980s.

    Fast forward to today, and you see the same butchery being applied to the Palestinians in Gaza...the narrow strip that has been called a prison by many in the media by virtue of the blockades conducted by the Israelis against the people imprisoned in their own land.

    Inequality leads to social unrest, and the actions of the Israeli government and the IDF over the last 60 some years cannot escape the scrutiny of the press. But we can always count on the USA to veto any UN sanctions against Israel, not matter how atrocious. The Israel Lobby in the USA rules our foreign policy in the Middle East...and it is mostly driven by Christian fundamentalists that want to preserve Israel for the second coming of Christ rather than the Jewish community.

    I could write more, but I suspect I am already enraging all the "Israel Firsters" who, in their cognitive dissonance, cannot find fault with Israel, and put Israel's interests ahead of the USA in foreign policies and actions.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Schmidt Wrote: alongcameschneider --

    First as a suggestion you might want to edit your post to remove the duplicate versions...I suppose you edited one version and forgot to remove the other. Okay that's just a picky point. I agree with most everything you say, and I like your analogy to teepees. I might even go further and suggest that since there is good evidence that the Neanderthals occupied areas of Palestine some 150,000 years ago, that humans carrying the Neanderthal DNA should have the right to return.

    Okay, that's preposterous but I just wanted to make a point.

    A while back, some in the Jewish community conducted DNA studies to prove their case that Jewish people originated in current day Palestine, parts of which are now Israel. However, those studies did not make their case. As shown in the graph of this Epiphenom article, The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians,

    "Jewish lineages essentially bracket Muslim Kurds, but they were also very closely related to Palestinians. In fact, what their analysis suggested was that Palestinians were identical to Jews, but with a small mix of Arab genes...So, as far as male lineage goes, the genetic story is very clear. Palestinians and Jews are virtually indistinguishable."

    "Women are a bit more tricky...Up until last year, the matrilineal heritage of Jews also seemed pretty clear. Analysis of elements in mitochondrial DNA (which is passed from mother to daughter) seemed to show that Jewish populations around Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East were derived from at least 8 unrelated 'founding mothers'. Where they came from wasn't clear, but the most likely explanation was that they were from local populations that bred with immigrant Jewish males. Their offspring became absorbed into the Jewish community. "


    Another article in Science Daily says much the same thing. "Analysis of DNA samples has shown that on the female line, the Ashkenazim [term largely used for Jews in eastern Europe] are descended not from the Near East but from southern and western Europe."

    Okay...the "Right of Return" based on ethnicity is easily debunked...or at the least, what little DNA can be traced back to their Semitic people in Palestine, doesn't trump the much stronger case of DNA of the local indigenous populations of both Palestinians and Jews that never left the area. On that basis the indigenous Palestinians have as much right to the land as the indigenous Jews. But the waves of Jewish immigrants that came illegally to Palestine as a part of various "Aliyahs" starting in 1882 certainly cannot claim the Right to Return based on ethnicity.

    For the history buffs, here are the facts:

    First Aliyah: 1882 - 1903: 35,000 Jews immigrate to Palestine from Eastern Europe
    Second Aliyah: 1904 - 1914: 40,000 Jewish immigrants arrive in Palestine, mainly from Russia
    Third Aliyah: 1919-1923: 35,000 Jewish immigrants mainly from Russia, Poland, and Lithuania
    Fourth Aliyah: 1924-1930: 80,000 Jews escaping from Poland immigrate to Palestine
    Fifth Aliyah: 1931-1939: 225,000 escaping the central and eastern Europe Holocaust immigrate to Palestine

    The 1940s saw many additional thousands of Jews escaping Europe for Palestine. During this entire period, while the initial Aliyahs were not met with much hostility, as the numbers of Jewish "illegal immigrants" grew, the hostilities also grew. The militant Zionist group, Irgun, had its roots in this period, and they are responsible for several massacres of whole Palestinian villages. I highly recommend Ilan Pappe's book, The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, for anyone that wants to read the history of these conflicts.

    From the Amazon review: "The renowned Israeli historian revisits the formative period of the State of Israel. Between 1947 and 1949, over 400 Palestinian villages were deliberately destroyed, civilians were massacred, and around a million men, women, and children were expelled from their homes at gunpoint. Denied for almost six decades, had it happened today it could only have been called "ethnic cleansing"."

    Note also that all of this occurred before the United Nations sanctified the State of Israel.

    And it didn't stop with statehood. Ariel Sharon has the well earned label "Butcher of Sabra and Chatila" for the butchery that he carried out against women and children in these communities during the 1980s.

    Fast forward to today, and you see the same butchery being applied to the Palestinians in Gaza...the narrow strip that has been called a prison by many in the media by virtue of the blockades conducted by the Israelis against the people imprisoned in their own land.

    Inequality leads to social unrest, and the actions of the Israeli government and the IDF over the last 60 some years cannot escape the scrutiny of the press. But we can always count on the USA to veto any UN sanctions against Israel, not matter how atrocious. The Israel Lobby in the USA rules our foreign policy in the Middle East...and it is mostly driven by Christian fundamentalists that want to preserve Israel for the second coming of Christ rather than the Jewish community.

    I could write more, but I suspect I am already enraging all the "Israel Firsters" who, in their cognitive dissonance, cannot find fault with Israel, and put Israel's interests ahead of the USA in foreign policies and actions.
    Schmidt. your statement :
    "quote" Inequality leads to social unrest, and the actions of the Israeli government and the IDF over the last 60 some years cannot escape the scrutiny of the press. But we can always count on the USA to veto any UN sanctions against Israel, not matter how atrocious. The Israel Lobby in the USA rules our foreign policy in the Middle East...and it is mostly driven by Christian fundamentalists that want to preserve Israel for the second coming of Christ rather than the Jewish community. "unquote"

    Says it all; like I said many times "religion is the curse of humanity"
  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    Schmidt, I fully agree. As I said in the other thread...... Israel are killing just like they were killed 70 years ago. It was wrong then. It's wrong today. I believe that Karma will catch up with you (Israel). You reap what you sow. I'm hoping that reasonable Americans will make the behavior of Israel an issue going forward. Mass killing (especially civilians, women and children) is evil. The threat of rockets ????? Sure anyone can complain about that... but the fabulous weapons system provided by the USA is keeping those safely away. For the Hawks though, it's enough of a reason to keep killing wholesale.

    When does Israel start building concentration camps ????? Will the US fund those too ?
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    TJ Wrote: Schmidt, I fully agree. As I said in the other thread...... Israel are killing just like they were killed 70 years ago. It was wrong then. It's wrong today. I believe that Karma will catch up with you (Israel). You reap what you sow. I'm hoping that reasonable Americans will make the behavior of Israel an issue going forward. Mass killing (especially civilians, women and children) is evil. The threat of rockets ????? Sure anyone can complain about that... but the fabulous weapons system provided by the USA is keeping those safely away. For the Hawks though, it's enough of a reason to keep killing wholesale.

    When does Israel start building concentration camps ????? Will the US fund those too ?
    Tony; I was planning to write the exact same thing; kind of weird that indeed they are doing the same thing as was done to them.
    I just wonder; all of the Jews my Dad saved from extermination; none came after the war to thank what was left of our family; is it a cultural/religeous thing that they think they are above all other people?
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Tony --In a sense, Gaza is just one giant concentration camp where Israel and Israel alone controls everything going in and out...food stuffs, medical supplies, construction materials...and the people of Gaza themselves. Much has been made of the tunnels as a means of moving weaponry into Gaza, but those tunnels are also a life blood for the Gaza people to obtain the necessary goods to live. Without them many would starve.

    Dutch -- You were asking what the USA would do if the plane has carried USA passengers. There is one example and it's called the USS Liberty. Few Americans know about that date of infamy, June 7, 1967. I read the book, Assault on the Liberty, that provides a detailed account and cover up of the events of that day in which the Israelis murdered 34 US sailors on that ship in an attempt to sink it. As bad as that incident was, what is outrageous is the cover up. As much as I appreciated Lyndon Johnson for his civil rights legislation, I condemn him for how he "protected" the Israelis in a massive US cover up. It's almost sickening. And the answer to your question is that the Americans did nothing...lest the offend the Israel Lobby.

    Schneider -- And on that last point, since you are doing your own research for a book, you must include, The Israel Lobby, by John J. Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago and Stephen M. Walt of Harvard's John F. Kennedy School of Government. It was published in 2008, but everything they said then, applies today. It explains why the USA will veto every UN sanction against Israel. It doesn't matter if it is a Democratic President or a Republican President, the Israel Lobby will see to it that Israel actions against Palestinians are never condemned by any UN resolution.

    And on that point, I'll come back to what I said in my previous post. The American Jews are largely supportive of a two state solution and oppose the policies of the Likud government in Israel. American Jews also identify with the Democratic Party and supported Barack Obama by a large majority in both presidential elections. There are two reasons for this. First, having been the victims themselves of persecution, they identify with the Democratic message on inequality more than the Republican platform that advances inequality. Second, the American Jews are intellectually too smart to identify with the "party of stupid". Okay, that last point is my opinion, but I appreciate the intellectualism that the Jewish immigrants have brought to America, and I could never see them ever supporting a party that thinks Climate Change is a liberal hoax or a party that embodies many facets of fascism as evidenced by the Tea Party faction of their party.

    With Eric Cantor been given the boot by the Tea Party, the Republicans in Congress do not have a single Jewish member...not in the House or the Senate. Yet the Republicans are the champions of all things Israel. They are the true "Israel Firsters". Does that make sense? Yes if you consider that it is the Christian right,the dispensationalists, that seeks to protect Israel for the second coming of Christ. They don't really give a damn about the Jews...only themselves.

    You can read about it more in Jon Basil Utley's 2006 article published in AntiWar.com: The Brutal Christ of the Armageddonites. You should read the whole article but here's are two paragraph extracts:

    "The foundation for Armageddon beliefs is the Book of Revelation in the Bible. Revelation has a controversial history: Martin Luther doubted its canonical status and included it only as an appendix to his translation of the Bible. In addition to their focus on Revelation, American fundamentalists of the "dispensationalist" variety stress the vengeful God of the Old Testament. They believe that nearly all of humanity (including Jews who don't convert) will be "left behind" to die horrible deaths, after which Christ will establish a thousand-year reign of paradise on earth.

    "A major reason the Armageddonites have become so powerful is that most journalists can't comprehend that millions of Americans could really want, in this day and age, their God to destroy most of the human race, much less that they are donating millions to promote it (subsidizing settlements on the West Bank and paying for Russian Jews to immigrate to Israel in order to fulfill prophecies faster). Nor do most Americans know that Armageddonites are in the highest levels of government. But it was erstwhile House Majority Leader Tom DeLay who argued that the Iraq war should be supported because it is a precursor to the second coming of Christ. He also tried to undermine the Bush "roadmap for peace" when he visited Israel."


    Sorry to go on and on about this, but if you are writing a book, these are things that you should know and understand. Nothing has changed from 2006...those beliefs have only gotten stronger and eptimize US foreign policy today in Occupied Palestine.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    "Schmidt" Yeah; what a world we live in!! I saw on CNBC that because of these things happening in the world that the GOP now thinks that they will win in 2016 . Also of course local isues like the VA scandal, Hobby Lobby, Legalizing pot, Obama Care,all play a role. So what do you think?
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    This short emotional video by John Snow says a lot about the toll that the Israeli actions are having on the people of Gaza, especially the children. The world cannot close their eyes to this. Watch it.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Yes, however I've got the feeling that a lot of the religeous members on this site do shut their eyes, as well on the downing of Flt17.
  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    Schmidt Wrote: This short emotional video by John Snow says a lot about the toll that the Israeli actions are having on the people of Gaza, especially the children. The world cannot close their eyes to this. Watch it.
    Wow !!!!! That was very heavy. I hope more on this site can find 3 minutes and 20 seconds to look and listen to this very bad situation. Otherwise, I don't know what can stop Israel until they ethnically cleanse the entire Palestinian population away. Maybe the USA should take in a few thousand as refugee's so the whole group isn't categorically eliminated.

    Israel wants to expand. Maybe they should see about purchasing 5000 or more acres in extreme north east Egypt. That would be close by and nobody needs killed to get additional land.
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Dutch Wrote: "Schmidt" Yeah; what a world we live in!! I saw on CNBC that because of these things happening in the world that the GOP now thinks that they will win in 2016 . Also of course local isues like the VA scandal, Hobby Lobby, Legalizing pot, Obama Care,all play a role. So what do you think?
    Yes Dutch. I agree. The Republicans are masters at messaging...playing to the human emotions. They pick out the issue and then amplify and distort them again and again' playing to a specific audience. It's more than just ObamaCare, which most Americans embrace once they understand. It's also guns..."Obama's going to take your guns away." "Obama's a secret Muslim...not Christian." He's too uppity and blah, blah, blah.

    AlterNet has an interesting article this morning: How Did Israel Learn How to Spin Its Disastrous Deadly Policies? From a GOP Pollster, Naturally

    They discuss how Israel politicians have become more accomplished (they use the word 'slicker') in selling the American public on the virtues of their war against the Palestinians.

    "There is a reason for this enhancement of the PR skills of Israeli spokesmen. Going by what they say, the playbook they are using is a professional, well-researched and confidential study on how to influence the media and public opinion in America and Europe. Written by the expert Republican pollster and political strategist Dr Frank Luntz, the study was commissioned five years ago by a group called The Israel Project, with offices in the US and Israel, for use by those "who are on the front lines of fighting the media war for Israel"."

    Take for instance on how to answer questions about "the right of return for Palestinian refugees who were expelled or fled in 1948 and in the following years, and who are not allowed to go back to their homes? Here Dr Luntz has subtle advice for spokesmen, saying that "the right of return is a tough issue for Israelis to communicate effectively because much of Israeli language sounds like the 'separate but equal' words of the 1950s segregationists and the 1980s advocates of Apartheid. The fact is, Americans don't like, don't believe and don't accept the concept of 'separate but equal'.""

    "So how should spokesmen deal with what the booklet admits is a tough question? They should call it a "demand", on the grounds that Americans don't like people who make demands. "Then say 'Palestinians aren't content with their own state. Now they're demanding territory inside Israel'." Other suggestions for an effective Israeli response include saying that the right of return might become part of a final settlement "at some point in the future"."

    That's just one example. There are many more in the AlterNet article. I highlight this because it's exactly the messaging I see on US TV...and not just Fox News. MSNBC does it's job in promoting "Frank Luntz speak" in selling the war to Americans. And when Rula Jebreal called out her own network (NBC, MSNBC) for their biased one sided coverage of the Israeli carnage, she was fired.

    But getting back to your point about 2016. The media has been piling on Hillary while Republicans are recasting their messaging. Rand Paul is undergoing a "transformation" to appeal to voters...new messaging...forget what he said in the past...never mind that he would have opposed parts of the Civil Rights Act.

    My biggest frustration is with the apathy of Democrats. I help out the local party in canvassing for candidates and voter registration drives, but sometimes I would like to hit apathetic liberals and Democrats over the head. Get passionate! If we lose the Senate in 2014, then 2016 will be especially tough for Hillary...if she is even elected. Rand Paul?? It's a possibility.

    "The tyranny of a prince in an oligarchy is not so dangerous to public welfare as the apathy of a citizen in a democracy." -- Charles de Secondat, baron de Montesquieu
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Schmidt; yes I can not add anything to that; if I see on how the media distorts even the Israeli attacks on a UN school and a hospital, then indeed I think they learned it from here. Here in FL these GOP candidates call themselves the most "honest" in their adds, while the present governor has got a criminal record, who they fully support.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    To my total, amazement; on CNN this afternoon was a heading: "What would Jesus do in Gaza" I guess they are totally nuts to raise such question.
    My answer is on something like that is quite simple:
    1) Run like hell (on his goatskin flip flops)
    2) Likely would get shot on sight
    3) Would get a grenade launched by a drone up his butt
    4) Would not hide in a school or hospital
    5) Would immediately buy a ticket on a Russian rocket, if it could reach Mars.
    6) Hide in a Mosque
    7) Pray like hell
  • Independent
    Massachusetts
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    I respond to Schmidt's truly excellent article (responding to my thread re. Israel situation).
    I've been somewhat familiar with most of the factuality, the actuality, that you present. But your presentation is so
    professional and concise (vs. the way I verbally obfuscate) that I'm enlightened even the more in that with which I was familiar!!
    I read "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" some time ago, and recognized really just another situation of brutal human nature from
    two ends of a spectrum.
    One -- that people are so brutalized that they are expelled or forced to self-expel from where they've been just to survive.
    Two -- that in order to have somewhere else to go, so often they'll brutalize and drive-off those already there. With Israel, this
    pervasive human "territorial-quest-migration-syndrome" has involved both ends of the spectrum, but its basis, its premise, is
    really one set of ancient writings and legends -- the Bible (and associated scrolls, the Torah, and probably other pages of
    propaganda projecting a myth of socio-superiority and thus entitlement to conquer and slay everywhere along the way to arrive
    at the promised land.
    That time and again this promise seems to have been quite fallacious as they've been diaspora'd and dispersed . . . isn't noticed.
    That this one ancient book, no matter its prior defaults, states that that whole Palestine-region is the Jews' promised land is
    taken by them far beyond a single religion's assumption -- into the presumption that it represents a territorial deed, as well as
    divine contract.

    But all that's before and beside the point.
    Your first point, my friend, oops. I did double-post. Must be more careful.
    Your other points are so important -- regarding who was really where first. And especially of note that hominids (such as Neanderthals)
    were most places where-into others immigrated out of Africa, no homo sapiens can really, legitimately, claim prima-postura in places.
    DNA analysis shows a percentage of Neanderthal in just about everyone north of Africa and spreading out.

    But, again all this is before and beside the point now.
    The point now is that Israel is there and isn't going to go away. It's existence is too important as a proxy-installation for US and probably
    all Western (even including China and Russia behind the scenes) protection of their singular and interlinked interests.
    The point is that if we were being shelled and shattered by militants, we'd be committing mass and massacre retaliation. Precedent?
    A defeated Japan without navy, air force, and encircled as if imprisoned upon their islands . . . . but "to save the lives that would be lost
    in a necessary US invasion" or "because the emperor hadn't capitulated completely his 'divine status'" . . . . Hiroshima. Nagasaki.
    Civilian cities.
    So can we blind our greater selves to the situation if it were our kids or grandkids being blown to bits by suicide bombers we'd retaliate?
    Can we deny (pardon the preposterous -- but it'll make my point) that if we found myriad tunnels from Cuba into Miami and neighborhoods
    were being blown up -- can we deny we'd blast the crap out what we discerned as the Cuban end of the tunnels and damned the women and
    kids on that end for "collateral damage happens"???

    But what other collateral is happening? As the world watches? What's going to happen if the world doesn't encompass such diversity and
    dimension of the situation as I've presented just above -- turning it around the other way and seeing the other side as victim??
    What's going to become (and in places already) is a major antiSemitic surge, stimulated by a fractionally seen situation (over there).
    Stirred by rhetoric (now Internet-pervasive) fanning humanity-embers to hostility flames focussing on the one side (Jews). Already there
    have been physical attacks on Jews in colleges, serious ideational suppressions the worse outside of academia. Will we wait until we've
    got a full-scale replay of 1930s Europe going on here?
    It could happen.

    After all, such bigotry-brutality was here before we 21st c. liberal humanitarian multiplicinarians moved into the socio-ethic scene.
    Check out slavery, Manifest Destiny, antiSemitism USA, and now immigrant-hatred.

    I think it comes down to two points. Two questions.
    First, if it were we over there (our kids and grand kids and other loved ones including selves), what would we be doing?
    Second, considering that what's happening over there may, for the "safety" of the settlers and others, seem necessary, should the threat of
    world-view Holocaust re-play be recognized, and by whatever means possible stopped before it goes beyond the present start?

    Conclusion.
    I think we have to realize this. This is where it's at. The point of the points.
    Israel is going to continue as a Jewish state where it is and is probably going to keep expanding to some extent even vs. UN constrictions.
    But if there were no rockets, militants, suicide bombers, intifada-stones, etc. being hurled, I think there'd be a Palestinian state alongside.
    And given both Jewish and Muslim economic echelon enterprise, there'd be immense fortunes being made (by the elite) off "alms tradings
    and trajectories" back and forth -- and there'd be sufficient "trickle down" to the populace Palestinian for them to eventually thank Allah for
    bringing in the Jewish bacon. . . . . . .
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
    Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    alongcameaschneider Wrote: I respond to Schmidt's truly excellent article (responding to my thread re. Israel situation).
    I've been somewhat familiar with most of the factuality, the actuality, that you present. But your presentation is so
    professional and concise (vs. the way I verbally obfuscate) that I'm enlightened even the more in that with which I was familiar!!
    I read "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" some time ago, and recognized really just another situation of brutal human nature from
    two ends of a spectrum.
    One -- that people are so brutalized that they are expelled or forced to self-expel from where they've been just to survive.
    Two -- that in order to have somewhere else to go, so often they'll brutalize and drive-off those already there. With Israel, this
    pervasive human "territorial-quest-migration-syndrome" has involved both ends of the spectrum, but its basis, its premise, is
    really one set of ancient writings and legends -- the Bible (and associated scrolls, the Torah, and probably other pages of
    propaganda projecting a myth of socio-superiority and thus entitlement to conquer and slay everywhere along the way to arrive
    at the promised land.
    That time and again this promise seems to have been quite fallacious as they've been diaspora'd and dispersed . . . isn't noticed.
    That this one ancient book, no matter its prior defaults, states that that whole Palestine-region is the Jews' promised land is
    taken by them far beyond a single religion's assumption -- into the presumption that it represents a territorial deed, as well as
    divine contract.

    But all that's before and beside the point.
    Your first point, my friend, oops. I did double-post. Must be more careful.
    Your other points are so important -- regarding who was really where first. And especially of note that hominids (such as Neanderthals)
    were most places where-into others immigrated out of Africa, no homo sapiens can really, legitimately, claim prima-postura in places.
    DNA analysis shows a percentage of Neanderthal in just about everyone north of Africa and spreading out.

    But, again all this is before and beside the point now.
    The point now is that Israel is there and isn't going to go away. It's existence is too important as a proxy-installation for US and probably
    all Western (even including China and Russia behind the scenes) protection of their singular and interlinked interests.
    The point is that if we were being shelled and shattered by militants, we'd be committing mass and massacre retaliation. Precedent?
    A defeated Japan without navy, air force, and encircled as if imprisoned upon their islands . . . . but "to save the lives that would be lost
    in a necessary US invasion" or "because the emperor hadn't capitulated completely his 'divine status'" . . . . Hiroshima. Nagasaki.
    Civilian cities.
    So can we blind our greater selves to the situation if it were our kids or grandkids being blown to bits by suicide bombers we'd retaliate?
    Can we deny (pardon the preposterous -- but it'll make my point) that if we found myriad tunnels from Cuba into Miami and neighborhoods
    were being blown up -- can we deny we'd blast the crap out what we discerned as the Cuban end of the tunnels and damned the women and
    kids on that end for "collateral damage happens"???

    But what other collateral is happening? As the world watches? What's going to happen if the world doesn't encompass such diversity and
    dimension of the situation as I've presented just above -- turning it around the other way and seeing the other side as victim??
    What's going to become (and in places already) is a major antiSemitic surge, stimulated by a fractionally seen situation (over there).
    Stirred by rhetoric (now Internet-pervasive) fanning humanity-embers to hostility flames focussing on the one side (Jews). Already there
    have been physical attacks on Jews in colleges, serious ideational suppressions the worse outside of academia. Will we wait until we've
    got a full-scale replay of 1930s Europe going on here?
    It could happen.

    After all, such bigotry-brutality was here before we 21st c. liberal humanitarian multiplicinarians moved into the socio-ethic scene.
    Check out slavery, Manifest Destiny, antiSemitism USA, and now immigrant-hatred.

    I think it comes down to two points. Two questions.
    First, if it were we over there (our kids and grand kids and other loved ones including selves), what would we be doing?
    Second, considering that what's happening over there may, for the "safety" of the settlers and others, seem necessary, should the threat of
    world-view Holocaust re-play be recognized, and by whatever means possible stopped before it goes beyond the present start?

    Conclusion.
    I think we have to realize this. This is where it's at. The point of the points.
    Israel is going to continue as a Jewish state where it is and is probably going to keep expanding to some extent even vs. UN constrictions.
    But if there were no rockets, militants, suicide bombers, intifada-stones, etc. being hurled, I think there'd be a Palestinian state alongside.
    And given both Jewish and Muslim economic echelon enterprise, there'd be immense fortunes being made (by the elite) off "alms tradings
    and trajectories" back and forth -- and there'd be sufficient "trickle down" to the populace Palestinian for them to eventually thank Allah for
    bringing in the Jewish bacon. . . . . . .
    To make it simple for you: It is pure a question of "power over the people" this is valid for the whole world; either religion, politics, culture, heritage, wealth, money, weapons, education etc. the more uneven the equation, the more turmoil. It is as simple as that; always has been the case through the centuries. You do not need a million words to explain such.