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Downing of Malaysia 777

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  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Today a 777 left Amsterdam and crashed in the Ukraine about 5 miles from the Russian border; luckily I can see the European news; down here here had the wrong map location on TV. Many more pictures there; which are not yet shown here at the time of posting this thread.
    As an aircraft expert it is my opinion that something happened at 35.000 Ft. A sidepanel of the fuselage landed in a meadow and a big piece of the center of the bottom fuselage landed between some houses. These pictures strongly indicate that this plane exploded in mid-air. The cause could be either a fuselage decompression or indeed a missile which hit it. So I guess now the political circus will start to show its ugly face. There were about 20 Dutchies on board. If this was a Russian rocket or attack by a Russian plane then I guess all hell will break loose. Just like the tensions with Obama's new sanctions were not enough.
  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    Dutch,
    Great post ! I saw it on CNN. It was immediately speculated about whether or not a Russian missile was fired to bring down this aircraft. Many dead. I'm guessing that Russians are already on the scene manipulating evidence (or removing and eliminating evidence) to hide any involvement. Hopefully more details will follow soon. Time to sell stock in Malaysian Airlines ?
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    TJ Wrote: Dutch,
    Great post ! I saw it on CNN. It was immediately speculated about whether or not a Russian missile was fired to bring down this aircraft. Many dead. I'm guessing that Russians are already on the scene manipulating evidence (or removing and eliminating evidence) to hide any involvement. Hopefully more details will follow soon. Time to sell stock in Malaysian Airlines ?
    Yes, I saw some more pictures of the burned out centersection and wings/engines; what surprises me is that the sections which landed far from the burned out section did not show burn or missile entry marks; they just popped out because of sudden decompression; so if it was a missile it must have hit the burned out section; since no NTSB like people are yet involved evidence etc to go through the rubble to find pieces of a missile may get botched because of politics. If no pieces of any missile are found then things get interesting also related to the Flt 370 (which also looked like decompression); but may have disintegrated a different way into the water somewhere. Looks a bit like GM's ignition switch problem if this happens to be the case.
    Of course the political machine will jump immediately on the missile bandwagon; I guess the first thing to do is find out if indeed missile pieces can be retrieved from the wreckage; until such time pls quit the speculation, politicians !!.
    The latest from the Dutch news, was that body parts were found in a range of 20 miles or more from the main wreckage.
  • Center Left
    Independent
    Charlotte, NC
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    "So I guess now the political circus will start to show its ugly face. There were about 20 Dutchies on board. If this was a Russian rocket or attack by a Russian plane then I guess all hell will break loose. Just like the tensions with Obama's new sanctions were not enough."

    You're right Dutch. This will no doubt escalate into a tense situation. The story will either unfold to show what actually happened (unlikely), or the media will take over (most definitely) to manipulate and make as confusing as possible.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    AP Story:

    Both sides are denying responsibility for the downing, but the missile was fired from inside a chunk of territory currently being held by separatists.

    This tragedy comes one day after a much lesser reported story of a Russian fighter jet entering Ukrainian airspace and shooting down a Ukrainian fighter jet. While that in and of itself would be a dramatic escalation of the conflict, shooting down a commercial plane full of innocent civilians can open up a Pandora's box that we may not soon be able to shut.
  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    The flight was said to be at 32,000 feet. Most anti-aircraft missiles don't (according to the news) shoot that high. Russian missiles can fly to 70,000 feet. I just heard a Russian missile "shot by terrorists"..... OMG.... The spin doctors are already on the job. Yes, getting investigators to the scene won't be easy. As I said previously, evidence is probably already being manipulated/compromised. This will be an interesting story. few months ago the US told our airlines to no longer fly over the "War zone" In simple terms..... the path was following a straight line / probably to save fuel.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Just saw some new pictures; one picture caught my eye; it was a wing section still quite intact wich was burned at the root; however it showed a big round hole with the metal edges pushed raggedly inward; may be it is my imagination but looks like the entry point of a foreign object (missile?) or may be an piece of an exploding engine so I so not want to speculate; but a kind of strange place to get a "round" hole curling towards the inside?
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    The latest; pictures were published of Ukrainians plundering aircraft pieces; as well gathering passports an personal belongings; a lot will disappear, because there is no police nor any authority controlling this area; it is rebel controlled. So a lot of stolen identity/ credit cards etc. will surface worldwide. Also any sound investigation will be hampered by the plundering. What a world we live in!!!
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    My mistake in earlier reports; it are 154 Dutch people; 27 Australians; 29 Malaysians; 11 Indonesians; 6 UK; 4 Germans; they say 47 unknown; that may include 23 Americans. To retrieve the victims will be an horrible task; since body parts are all over the place; so indentification (if any) which can be done there will be extreemly difficult. A terrible situation; in the Netherlands they are in total shock because of the numbers.
    ( sorry, the numbers may not add up correctly but that is what the Dutch news reported)
  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    At 7:04 pm on CNN it shows
    U.S. officials: Plane was shot down.
    Putin is blaming the Ukrainians. Of course. If Putin isn't feeling guilty/responsible, he would invite the NTSB in to investigate.
    Biden "Plane with 295 on board was blown out of the sky"

    Edit/Add
    10:38 pm Flight was a daily flight from AMS / KUL. Due to attempts to avoid strong storms, the aircraft is said to have been 200 miles off it's usual course.
    Rumor - just now on CNN is that Putin's plane was said to be in the area. Many in Ukraine hate Putin. I have no idea if there's any truth to this rumor. We'll see if it's dismissed or substantiated.

    We have plausible deniability. That will be convenient for someone or some group.

    POTUS is on the way back to DC after fund raising in NY
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Kyvi Post: SBU intercepts phone conversations of separatists admitting downing a civilian plane (FULL TRANSCRIPT; VIDEO)

    Go to this link and read the interesting transcript of intercepted phone conversations implicating the Russian-backed Cossack militants in the shooting down of the Malaysian airliner.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Schmidt Wrote: Kyvi Post: SBU intercepts phone conversations of separatists admitting downing a civilian plane (FULL TRANSCRIPT; VIDEO)

    Go to this link and read the interesting transcript of intercepted phone conversations implicating the Russian-backed Cossack militants in the shooting down of the Malaysian airliner.
    "Schmidt" regardless of such news it is urgent that they have a specialist team (well protected) at the site to investigate the wreckage and hopefully still find pieces etc. which point to a "missile" entry or pieces from it. I still am of the "old" school wanting black and white evidence. Since this is slowly but surely an aging aircraft the same as flight MS370 ; the point is that both aircraft were flying on the 32000FT-34000 ft level and had consumed simular amounts of fuel; coincedence? So this has to be researched; what caused the sudden "decompression" ; could it be a serious structural failure?
    What I've seen from the "pieces" it was a sudden"decompression" ; the center section must have had about two-thirds fuel left considering the distance from the accident site to Kuala Lumpur; so that section burned out; part of the outerwing seems to be intact; because the fuel drained out while spiraling down to earth. So if I was Obama I would urge the Ukrainians/Russians to accept an NTSB team to go there immediately before al the evidence disappears; it may be already too late for that because of the pilferage.
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Dutch -- You are certainly right about letting the experts access to the crash site. The head of the NTSB says he is not going to send in his team unless they can assure the safety of the investigators. I don't know that Russia or anyone else can make that guarantee. It sounds like this is a bunch of lawless out of control bands of Russian and Ukrainian militias that don't answer to anyone...just multiple factions of separatists. Kind of reminds me of the militias in Nevada supporting Cliven Bundy. Or maybe the Syrian situation where the conflict attracts all the worst kind of militants.

    I think the intercepted conversations sound legitimate and point the finger at the Cossacks, native to both Ukraine and Russia. I've read where the Cossacks kind of act independently of both Russia and Ukraine...not unlike perhaps the Kurds in Iraq. Tribalism trumps nationalism.

    Also, listening to some of the self proclaimed "experts" on TV, they say the USA spy satellites with their extensive coverage of this hot spot, should have picked up where the missile was fired from, unless as you suggest it wasn't a missile. However, the US government and the Ukrainians seem pretty certain of that. Those conversations were released so quickly that I don't think anyone could have concocted them in such a short time.

    Furthermore, Russia is not denying that a missile hit the plane.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Schmidt Wrote: Dutch -- You are certainly right about letting the experts access to the crash site. The head of the NTSB says he is not going to send in his team unless they can assure the safety of the investigators. I don't know that Russia or anyone else can make that guarantee. It sounds like this is a bunch of lawless out of control bands of Russian and Ukrainian militias that don't answer to anyone...just multiple factions of separatists. Kind of reminds me of the militias in Nevada supporting Cliven Bundy. Or maybe the Syrian situation where the conflict attracts all the worst kind of militants.

    I think the intercepted conversations sound legitimate and point the finger at the Cossacks, native to both Ukraine and Russia. I've read where the Cossacks kind of act independently of both Russia and Ukraine...not unlike perhaps the Kurds in Iraq. Tribalism trumps nationalism.

    Also, listening to some of the self proclaimed "experts" on TV, they say the USA spy satellites with their extensive coverage of this hot spot, should have picked up where the missile was fired from, unless as you suggest it wasn't a missile. However, the US government and the Ukrainians seem pretty certain of that. Those conversations were released so quickly that I don't think anyone could have concocted them in such a short time.

    Furthermore, Russia is not denying that a missile hit the plane.
    I do not want to sound stubburn, but looking at satelite data used to find Flt 370; I've got my doubts, because it did not work.
    What we need is more than recorded messages and that is "facts" from the investigation on the wreckage then you have black and white proof.
    I still doubt that if it was a high altitude missile, that just a group of untrained rebels can program any such missile; you have to punch in coordinates like altitude/ speed and probable direction to program such, before you push the button. But nothing is impossible. So we need experts down there quickly; but fear bureaucracy and politics will reign.
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    The satellite coverage over the remote areas of the Indian Ocean is very sparse compared to the obvious saturation coverage of an area of military conflict in eastern Ukraine. And certainly spy satellites have much high resolution than those Indian Ocean satellites.

    The president at his news conference today expressed pretty strong confidence that it was a Russian made missile fired from just outside the Russian border of Ukraine. We have spy satellite evidence of all the Russian made military equipment being moved acroos the border into Ukraine and that includes missile launchers. That's why Obama imposed additional sanctions on Russia.

    Obviously, the separatists are not capable of launching a rocket without extensive training by Russian advisers embedded into the insurgent militias. Maybe even in this case, it was one of those Russians that pulled the trigger.

    I believe the President. He and Samantha Powers would not be making these accusations if they didn't have hard evidence of a missile taking the plane down. They probably watched it's launch from the satellite. They know the exact spot it was launched from.