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Israel, Hamas and the Gaza Strip

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    jaredsxtn Wrote: No, the Arabs were not offered 'most of the land of Israel' in 1947. The 1947 United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was rejected by the Arabs because they were being forcibly uprooted from their land in order to create a new country for holocaust survivors. There were not millions of Jews in what is now Israel for thousands of years.

    Jews began migrating to Palestine in the 1880's during a time called the First Aliyah. They were fleeing Eastern Europe and were actually welcomed by the Palestinians who were living there. The next wave came in the early 1900's during a time called the Second Aliyah. They, too, were welcomed by the Palestinians who were living there until they started realizing that many of these Jews were Zionists who wanted to forcibly remove them from their land. This feeling was exasperated after the Jews began collaborating with the British authorities after they forcibly took over Palestine in 1917. Jews made up only 11 percent of the population of Palestine at the time, but had a powerful partner in the British Empire.

    You are incorrect when it comes to your statement about '50% of the present day Israeli Jews are from Arab countries who were kicked out in 1948 and beyond.' The Israeli's forcibly removed more than 700,000 Palestinians from their land in a period known as the Nakba. This was more than 50 percent of all Palestinians living on these disputed lands.

    Labeling anyone who questions Israels indiscriminate killing of thousands of innocent civilians an anti-semite is just another use of a pro-Israeli person leveling Ad hominem personal attacks against people who challenge them.
    "jared" compliments you voiced it correctly.
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    micpt Wrote: This discussion needs a more factual basis. I respectfully submit some important information about the establishment of the modern day state of Israel. First off, there has always been a strong biblical Jewish connection to the land of Israel. If you are a Jew or a Christian then this is in your bible. This is beyond dispute. Now fast forward to 1948. There was always a Jewish presence in this region. Before 1948 the British did control this area then known as Palestine. However there was never any such country known as Palestine. There were some Arab tribes living there under the Ottoman Empire. From 1948 to 1967 there were Arab citizens of Gaza (Egypt) and Judea and Samaria (west bank - Jordan). Miraculously they became "Palestinians" overnight in 1967. In 1947 the Arabs were offered most of the land of Israel but rejected it and instead invaded with several Arab armies trying to drive the Jews into the ocean. Numerous times Israel has offered them land for a Palestinian state which they've rejected numerous times. Yes there were holocaust survivors who populated Israel after the war. However 50% of the present day Israeli Jews are from Arab countries who were kicked out in 1948 and beyond. Bottom line is that if you don't recognize the Jewish state of Israel you are an antisemite. I can't argue with you on that.
    I guess you are either Jewish or a fanatic Christian; both are guilty because of religion is the root of all evil.
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    I agree with all of Jared's comments. And it is difficult to follow up on a lot of the past events because of a revisionist history being marketed to not only the Jewish emigrants from various European countries, but also the American public. Let me add this to the perspective though.

    The indigenous people of the area called Palestine or Biblical Israel are the Semites. As DNA studies have shown, there is not much difference genetically between all the indigenous people of the area no matter what you call them...Jews, Arabs, Muslims, Palestinians...same, same.

    Epiphenom: The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians

    "The good news is that the genetics of Arabs and Jews have been pretty extensively researched. The classic study dates to 2000, from a team lead by Michael Hammer of University of Arizona. They looked at Y-chromosome haplotypes - this is the genetic material passed from father to son down the generations.

    "What they revealed was that Arabs and Jews are essentially a single population, and that Palestinians are slap bang in the middle of the different Jewish populations (as shown in this figure).

    "Another team, lead by Almut Nebel at the Hebrew University, Jerusalem, took a closer look in 2001. They found that Jewish lineages essentially bracket Muslim Kurds, but they were also very closely related to Palestinians. In fact, what their analysis suggested was that Palestinians were identical to Jews, but with a small mix of Arab genes - what you would expect if they were originally from the same stock, but that Palestinians had mixed a little with Arab immigrants."


    However, the Jews that arrived in the various Aliyahs from Europe do not share the same DNA as those peoples that remained in the area. They have a mixture of DNA from their diaspora local and to varying degrees some from the Middle East...but their Middle East DNA content dwarfs that of the "Palestinians". In other words, if they claim the Right of Return based on genetics, then a much stronger case can be made for the "Right to Stay" by the Palestinians. Current day Israel is the Palestinian homeland...it was taken away from them by force.

    As various scholars have pointed out, the eviction and massacre of Palestinians was conducted not by the indigenous Jews but rather by the invaders, mostly from Europe, and their terrorist militant group Irgun.

    But here's some more history to consider. In the year 632 AD, Muslims arrived in Palestine defeating the Byzantine Empire's forces. Three years later in 637 AD, Omar Ibn al-Khattab entered Jerusalem after the siege. He allowed Jews to return to Palestine for the first time since the 500-year ban from the Holy Land and allowed them to practice their religion freely. Except for the period, 1099 - 1187 (Christian rule), Muslims were control of Palestine from 637 AD to 1918. During that 1200 year period of Muslim rule including the Golden Age of Islam, the Jews and Muslims lived peacefully together. They even fought together against the Christians during the Crusades. That is not surprising because they are all Semites and share the same DNA.

    Fast forward to the period when the diaspora emigrated out of Europe into Palestine. They were regarded by foreigners, even by the indigenous Jews. So from the 1940s up to the present day, there has been nothing but turmoil created by the presence of the invaders. While the Jews lived in peace under Muslim rule for some 1200 years, they have yet to find one year of peace under Jewish rule.

    The Jewish state of Israel will never know peace...never as long as they subject the Palestinians to intolerable inhumane conditions. The ball is in Israel's court. If they want peace, then they have to start abiding by the UN resolutions.
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    Schmidt Wrote: I agree with all of Jared's comments. And it is difficult to follow up on a lot of the past events because of a revisionist history being marketed to not only the Jewish emigrants from various European countries, but also the American public. Let me add this to the perspective though.

    The indigenous people of the area called Palestine or Biblical Israel are the Semites. As DNA studies have shown, there is not much difference genetically between all the indigenous people of the area no matter what you call them...Jews, Arabs, Muslims, Palestinians...same, same.

    Epiphenom: The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians

    "The good news is that the genetics of Arabs and Jews have been pretty extensively researched. The classic study dates to 2000, from a team lead by Michael Hammer of University of Arizona. They looked at Y-chromosome haplotypes - this is the genetic material passed from father to son down the generations.

    "What they revealed was that Arabs and Jews are essentially a single population, and that Palestinians are slap bang in the middle of the different Jewish populations (as shown in this figure).

    "Another team, lead by Almut Nebel at the Hebrew University, Jerusalem, took a closer look in 2001. They found that Jewish lineages essentially bracket Muslim Kurds, but they were also very closely related to Palestinians. In fact, what their analysis suggested was that Palestinians were identical to Jews, but with a small mix of Arab genes - what you would expect if they were originally from the same stock, but that Palestinians had mixed a little with Arab immigrants."


    However, the Jews that arrived in the various Aliyahs from Europe do not share the same DNA as those peoples that remained in the area. They have a mixture of DNA from their diaspora local and to varying degrees some from the Middle East...but their Middle East DNA content dwarfs that of the "Palestinians". In other words, if they claim the Right of Return based on genetics, then a much stronger case can be made for the "Right to Stay" by the Palestinians. Current day Israel is the Palestinian homeland...it was taken away from them by force.

    As various scholars have pointed out, the eviction and massacre of Palestinians was conducted not by the indigenous Jews but rather by the invaders, mostly from Europe, and their terrorist militant group Irgun.

    But here's some more history to consider. In the year 632 AD, Muslims arrived in Palestine defeating the Byzantine Empire's forces. Three years later in 637 AD, Omar Ibn al-Khattab entered Jerusalem after the siege. He allowed Jews to return to Palestine for the first time since the 500-year ban from the Holy Land and allowed them to practice their religion freely. Except for the period, 1099 - 1187 (Christian rule), Muslims were control of Palestine from 637 AD to 1918. During that 1200 year period of Muslim rule including the Golden Age of Islam, the Jews and Muslims lived peacefully together. They even fought together against the Christians during the Crusades. That is not surprising because they are all Semites and share the same DNA.

    Fast forward to the period when the diaspora emigrated out of Europe into Palestine. They were regarded by foreigners, even by the indigenous Jews. So from the 1940s up to the present day, there has been nothing but turmoil created by the presence of the invaders. While the Jews lived in peace under Muslim rule for some 1200 years, they have yet to find one year of peace under Jewish rule.

    The Jewish state of Israel will never know peace...never as long as they subject the Palestinians to intolerable inhumane conditions. The ball is in Israel's court. If they want peace, then they have to start abiding by the UN resolutions.
    "schmidt" a well researched thread. However I think abiding by the UN resolutions is not enough; for the Gaza population it does do nothing; they are still couped up in a sliver of land; totally dependant of the neighbors. As long as religion plays a role there will be no peace. Also the attitude of the Jews with the help of the US has to change drastically. The US should treat every one in the region the same and stop with religeous driven preferences as well providing our weapons to Israel.
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    I believe the US stance is because in the USA there's a block of voters (Jewish) that represents a particular number of potential voters. Obviously there are Palestinians in the USA also. However their numbers are probably far less. For whatever reasons.... The Jewish often have money as well. That will attract a politician every time.
    It was stated on the news yesterday that while losing real estate and lives, the Palestinians are winning the battle of Social media in the US. I wouldn't minimize the importance of that. Those people pay taxes and vote. The majority of those using social media are very much on the side of the Palestinians. That's a battle not influenced by US paid for weapons. At least not yet.
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    micpt Wrote: This discussion needs a more factual basis. I respectfully submit some important information about the establishment of the modern day state of Israel. First off, there has always been a strong biblical Jewish connection to the land of Israel. If you are a Jew or a Christian then this is in your bible. This is beyond dispute. Now fast forward to 1948. There was always a Jewish presence in this region. Before 1948 the British did control this area then known as Palestine. However there was never any such country known as Palestine. There were some Arab tribes living there under the Ottoman Empire. From 1948 to 1967 there were Arab citizens of Gaza (Egypt) and Judea and Samaria (west bank - Jordan). Miraculously they became "Palestinians" overnight in 1967. In 1947 the Arabs were offered most of the land of Israel but rejected it and instead invaded with several Arab armies trying to drive the Jews into the ocean. Numerous times Israel has offered them land for a Palestinian state which they've rejected numerous times. Yes there were holocaust survivors who populated Israel after the war. However 50% of the present day Israeli Jews are from Arab countries who were kicked out in 1948 and beyond. Bottom line is that if you don't recognize the Jewish state of Israel you are an antisemite. I can't argue with you on that.
    Yes, Israel has a connection to the Bible, no one is disputing this. It existed a few thousand years ago as well. Both of those facts are just completely irrelevant. There are dozens of countries that both existed a few thousand years ago and existed in the Bible. Persia, Assyria, Aram, Cush, Elam, and Babylon to name a few. The tribe of Israelites conquered the existing tribes in the area, established their own country until they were later conquered by Babylon. The fact that it use to exist a few thousand years ago, by itself, doesn't give them any sort of legitimate claim on the territory today. Unless you then want to also give legitimacy to any group of people that ever control any bit of land ever.

    That is pretty much the only thing I wanted to add to Jared's response, which was spot on.
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    Even though the United States does alot for Israel, they have no right to sacrafice their society to those who want them all dead. Bill Clinton tried to make peace with Arafat which I consider the father of terrosim and now John Kerry with Hamas. Would CNN, ABC, NBC and others be happy to see film clips of dead Israeli kids and mothers because I sure am tired of this sympathy they are putting out. Israel spent millions of dollars over the years on bomb shelters to protect their people because they care about each life and not the opposite approach which Hamas practices. If you hate your enemy more than you love you children you are a pretty messed up bastard which is why the terrorist strap bombs on their children and wives or by putting them where rockets are being stored and fired. The United States surely protect themselves as Israel but our reprentatives in Washington DC would like to think they are better in advising Israel what to do even though our entire congress lacks the collective intellect of one Israeli prime minister. Israel will never have a 9-11, they are too savy, afraid of letting down their guard and they have been around too long in a very dangerous part of the world and know the mind of their enemy better than we do. No land can Israel give up that will make peace. No unsecured borders can be undone that will make peace. These Palestinian children that are being killed are being brain washed every day in School and in their homes to hear only that Jews are the enemy and that they should all die. God has never made it easy for the Jews and unfortunately many others. Moses took 40 years of punishment to find this land with God's help and behold they got land with no Oil and are surrounded by those who want them dead. Just remember this, the Israelis did build beautiful hospitals for which Arabs get to use, agriculutral areas with the help of their own drip system in a once dry desert, they have found many cures and invented many things to help the world and their own citizens. Look at the PLO and their land. Looks like going into Mexico from the United States. These poor people are pawns and are not necessarily the enemy. The war will go on longer than most of us will live. Unfortunately the almighty would have to come down and do alot of destruction on both sides and bring them all down on their knees and make them plea for mercy before there will be any kind of peace.

    In order for anyone to make a difference one must care about the other person. One more thing. More Arabs and Palestinians die at the hand of other Arabs or Palestinians than from Jews in Israel. Look at the dead in Syria. They just do not appreciate life. War is an occupation over there to these terroist. One thing that most Americans probably do not know, Israel has alot of Arabs and Palestinians living in Israel and I hear they would like to stay there.
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    Your argument is a bit reversed. Israel is the that is doing a huge majority of the persecution. Driving Palestinians from their homes and committing war crimes. The unabashedly take territory and terrorize Palestinians. The Palestinians, in return do a bit of the same, but they are not equipped nor have the resources or the backing to do it on the scale of Israel.

    Both sides are have been in the wrong, but a very disproportional amount of the wrongdoing is on the shoulders of Israel. It will be extremely hard to erase 70 years of hatred and bring peace to the area quickly. We need to take small steps.
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    Zach F Wrote: Your argument is a bit reversed. Israel is the that is doing a huge majority of the persecution. Driving Palestinians from their homes and committing war crimes. The unabashedly take territory and terrorize Palestinians. The Palestinians, in return do a bit of the same, but they are not equipped nor have the resources or the backing to do it on the scale of Israel.

    Both sides are have been in the wrong, but a very disproportional amount of the wrongdoing is on the shoulders of Israel. It will be extremely hard to erase 70 years of hatred and bring peace to the area quickly. We need to take small steps.
    What you said about "small steps" will only lead to the same thing over a couple of years. The only thing which will work is some form of equality; living wise; weapons wise. The im-balance of both parties is way too big, so that will lead to more hardship and killing.
    Like what was tried before create a Palestinian state; not just West Bank and Gaza ( they are way too seperated to form a unity) A state with room to move and have free trade and movement of their people.
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    I understand this isn't front page news anymore, but the months long conflict is roaring back to life again after a short term cease fire collapsed on Tuesday. Israel and Hamas weren't able to come to terms on a longer cease fire agreement and started hostilities again shortly thereafter.

    Today alone saw Israel murder 26 Palestinians, 23 of them were civilians. Included in that 26 were three children.

    Israel may win this short term war with overwhelming force, but they are going to lose the long term war for the hearts and minds of the rest of the world. They are going to have a harder and harder time justifying the indiscriminate killing of countless civilians when none of their civilians have been killed, but that just doesn't seem to be on their mind currently.
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    I guess we are crossing mails; I said something already about this under the other heading of "along came Schneider" etc. Here it is:
    Tony, they are at it again. I wonder if after a while that whole Gaza is only rubble. I guess that is the objective of Israel; the same here with real-estate if you buy a house it is more expensive than just a building lot. Not that Israel is going to "buy" it; I guess they just "annex" it.
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    The main problem with news is that we are always susceptible to bias from the person telling the story. I understand Israel needing to protect themselves. I also understand the actions of an oppressed people. However in this case I am led to believe that the Palestinians are oppressed by their own government. Yasser Arafat taught the army to hit and run to protect their weapons because they couldn't afford to lose any. Hamas uses the same practice today. Load the rocket launcher on the back of a truck, fire the rocket, before Israel can respond , move to another location. The process makes sense. Unfortunately, in todays world, smart bombs don't think like people. I'm sure Israel has never checked the situation and said "Hey I have a neat idea. Let's blow up those kids that are playing in the park." I think they respond with logic. That one came from a location this many degrees latitude by this many degrees longitude. The bomber punches the co-ordinance in to the computer and lets it go. I don't believe for a minute that anyone is questioning who is in the area. It might inadvertently cost a few lives but Hamas still has its weapon safely stored on the back of the truck.
    Arafat said himself that "due to the lack of weaponry they use their bodies to fight. What is one body if it can end a war."