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Another Piece of Evidence for Evolution?

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  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    pr Wrote: EF, for a busy lady you seem to have way to much time on your hands! ;)
    EF, I guess you drank way too much "apple cider"; you would have been a great "bible writer" may be your ancesters did?
  • Independent
    Massachusetts
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    Continuation from my yesterday’s (or was it day-before’s) “thread” . . . .

    This quotation (and source) would not be of any influence to a Creationist.
    "Every man who occupies himself with the construction of a god, or merely even agrees to it, prostitutes himself in the worst way, for he occupies himself not with activity, but with self-contemplation and self-reflection, and tries thereby to defy his most unclean, most stupid, and most servile features and pettinesses." Lenin


    However, the following just might be!!!
    " . . . . . became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man." Romans: 25 (or so)

    The Bible has a bit more to say about NOT PICTURING (NOT BEING ABLE TO SEE) GOD.

    Biblical references
    God is invisible


    John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
    Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
    Job 23:8 Behold, I go forward, but he is not there; and backward, but I cannot perceive him.
    Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
    Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God be honour and glory for ever and ever Amen.
    6:15,16 . . . the King of Kings, and lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting, Amen.
    Hebrews 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
    John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
    Job 23:8,9 Behold, I go forward, but he is not there; and backward, but I cannot perceive him. On the left hand, where he doth work, but I cannot behold him: he hideth himself on the right hand, that I cannot see him.




    Portraying God, “humanizing” God, results in such as the following when
    even absolute atrocity for the sick satisfaction of man is “projected” as God’s
    will, God’s action, at least God-approval.
    1) So Elisha “went from there unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two of the children of them.” 2 Kings 2:24
    2) “And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.” Numbers 31.


    .
    Considering the above, so much else in the Bible is either blatant contradiction or actual blasphemy. And this would include the ultra-
    Creationist-evangelical assertion that . . anywhere that God is mentioned in the Bible it’s actually reference to Jesus . . . . “In the beginning Jesus Christ created the heavens and the earth . . . . . . “ God invisible . . . .but Jesus not only visible but "incarnate being" . . .????

    I’ll have more to say on this over the weekend. I'll be most interested in others' comments.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    I can't quite follow you on this statement: . “In the beginning Jesus Christ created the heavens and the earth . . . . . . “ God invisible . . . .but Jesus not only visible but "incarnate being" . . .????

    Just incase I'm mistaken this Jesus guy was just a "human" who "created" nothing at all; except which led to some nutheads who "created" the Catholic church hundreds of years after his death.

    Yes; he was "visible" but never wrote one word in his short life; "he" ( may be was an "it" running around with guys only) was only a "human" preacher conceived just like Mohammed from sperm; nothing else; so please explain your statement.
  • Democrat
    Tennessee
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    This is fascinating and I appreciate the article on the Tibetan hemoglobin evolution. I wonder how many apostolate Christians have read this in the journal of Nature, given that this may satisfy the alteration of some people their views. Or was this statement merely the proverbial blowing smoke?

    Honestly, what I don’t understand about many fundamental religious people and their resistance to evolution and the proof thereof, is the basic evidence through animal husbandry. For example, cattle, horses, and so forth have clearly altered easily in their appearance at least, within some of our lifetimes, and not to mention new phenotypes (often with associated, resulting behaviors) of dogs that absolutely cannot be denied.

    Granted, this is not due to natural selection, and nearly 100% due to human selective breeding; however, this is observable change over time. It's a place to start, in any event.

    It's simply difficult to find a common ground with those who make statements that include "there is no evidence that can be shown that would cause [him] to change..." our minds/beliefs/thoughts/opinions/thinking on a subject.
    This is a foreign concept to a scientist, skeptic or atheist.

    My two cents worth.
    Thanks again.
  • Liberal
    Independent
    Durham, NH
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    Excelent observation - thanks!
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    I'm just waiting untill find the sperm of a dinosaurus and inject it into a horse; that will be fun!! I'll adopt the baby and have it play with my alligator.
  • Liberal
    Other Party
    Llos Angeles, CA
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    Dutch Wrote: I'm just waiting untill find the sperm of a dinosaurus and inject it into horse; that will be fun!! I'll adopt the baby and have it play with my alligator.
    Dutch,


    the only cross breeding the lord would approve of are.....men and birds... to make angels.


    What is wrong with you dutch? go say 20 hail Mary's and then 50 asamlamalakem and I like pigs and bacon.


    You will then be forgiven by the lord Darth Vader,,,oh oh...I meant lord and savior
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    L.A. Citizen Wrote:
    Dutch Wrote: I'm just waiting untill find the sperm of a dinosaurus and inject it into horse; that will be fun!! I'll adopt the baby and have it play with my alligator.
    Dutch,


    the only cross breeding the lord would approve of are.....men and birds... to make angels.


    What is wrong with you dutch? go say 20 hail Mary's and then 50 asamlamalakem and I like pigs and bacon.


    You will then be forgiven by the lord Darth Vader,,,oh oh...I meant lord and savior
    L.A. great, I love some humor once in a while; otherwise the site gets too boring.
  • Liberal
    Other Party
    Llos Angeles, CA
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    I have to be funny in this forum. Some of these members would make great politicians. I swear, these guys contradict themselves every other post. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed but I'm consistently full of shit.... some of you members tell some real whoppers.
  • Independent
    Massachusetts
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    BRAIN PART OF ORGANISM

    The brain is part of the organism.
    The brain is the coordinator of the action and behavior of the organism (though there are levels of "sub-cognitive" dynamics such as endocrinological to which the cognitive brain responds.
    But without the brain the animal would behave essentially as a plant.
    What the brain does is significantly called thought process -- but is actually electrical and chemical dynamics within and between neurons and other brain entities and structures.
    Running an animal through a CAT or PET or fMRA of the brain and "thought" would be seen by the observer. . . the manifestations being selective and differential electrical and chemical factors.

    The discontinuity of thought, the "macromutation (saltation)" that we come to with the human . . . . well, say you're from another planet and, in a time-warp frame of reference. observing a primate of which the antecedents represented a gradual variation of characteristics and behaviors over hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of years. Said primate's thought processes are primarily ("primatarily"?) related to survival: reproducing, eating, avoiding predators, involvement in "social" situations, etc.
    Typical primate behavior. Picture a troop of chimps. Top of the line of those eons of variation of which somewhat superficial physical characteristics are the most noticeable.

    Remember, your perspective is that of a visitor to earth. Your perspective is objective. You recognize this evolutionary progression up to and including chimp, the latter end (primates) pretty much alike, especially behaviorally.
    But suddenly (within the frame-of-reference time-warp) you notice that some of the chimps have less hair and shorter arms and are becoming bipedal and you recognize this as just ongoing gradual variation that you're seeing as if "stop-motion" . . . . but then you notice one of these "naked apes" has fashioned an instrument which makes "mathematically-tuned" tones. And next there's an ensemble of different such instruments that one or another "naked apes" have made. And you see over there another "naked ape" looking up at the night sky and drawing diagrams of planetary orbits and a little later some other ones over there have made a telescope and another group's sudden (in evolutionary time) behavior (for what these "naked apes" are doing IS ANIMAL BEHAVIOR . . .or are they no longer animals? or is it no longer behavior? or . . . . .?????? . .. the other group is looking at the atomic-level componential dynamics of molecules.

    Thought is electro-chemical process of an organism, interfacing a "cognitive paradigm" ("idea or image") with an enactment. even of pro temp passivity. Through the eons of evolution, the thought of organisms has been primarily enactment-monitoring or enactment-instigation . . . ."behavioral".
    So suddenly we come to the human and thought encompasses a "cognitive replication of the universal" as . . . idea in and of itself. There is no adaptative advantage to the cognitive (thought) domain and dynamics of astronomy or even microbiology.

    My point, again -- there's no explanation for this "macromutation of man's mind" to infer, derive, compute, demonstrate, prove . . . . universal-scope existence state and system (quanta and field). For purely chance changes to result in the cognition of a species actually equating with ("mirroring"?) existence almost in toto is rather ridiculous, especially considering the "blink of evolutionary time" from that primate (chimp) to man.
    My point is that evolutionary science needs to recognize that there's one hell of an INTELLIGENT DESIGN in thought potential of the human (the human "mind").
    BUT THE IDEA OF A GUY-IN-THE-SKY INTELLIGENT DESIGNER THEREOF IS IRRATIONAL AS WELL AS ABSURD. Yet, from the l800s unto now, especially with Dawkins, there seems to be an atheist agenda that blinds the field to the expanse of evolution it should be encompassing.

    That of which the most advanced evolutionary (developmentally complex) state, embodies (literally) a cognitive recognition and replication of its whole scope (universal, inclusive of not just evolutionary process itself – but also actual cosmic origin) . . . . is sure one hell of an organized something. And in that the organization thereof that’s resulted in the mind of man results in what we assume as man’s vastly advanced INTELLIGENCE . . . . how can the process of its origin and development and manifestation not be seen as – and why not called – INTELLIGENT DESIGN??

    Can’t anyone KEEP THE GUY-G0D OUT OF THE DYNAMIC SYSTEM OF COSMIC CAUSATION??? THE CREATOR IS INHERENT IN THE SYSTEM ITSELF, YET SUPERORDINAL IN THAT OTHERWISE THERE WOULD BE NO SYSTEM!!!!
    It’s that simple to me. Yet there’s this never-ending Creationist argument by people who make the Bible their “documentation” but need to read it so they know what it says that they aren’t.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Schneider; great piece; the only thing I like to add is that every individual hopefully has a brain; some of us don't. They only use it when shopping at Walmart.

    The point is a "brain" is just like your I-Pad, if the battery goes dead it is worthless; also all the "individual" brains die out at a given moment; so they become useless; babies have to start that cycle over and over again. Each time a new "app" is added, so it did evolve from ape to an astronaut. So where does it end, because a brain is just a mass of substance which may do the wrong thing and the world as we know it may end; new species with smaller brains may evolve and take over. And the cycle continous for millions of years. But at present we think we know it all, It depends on who wins in the end the human brain or .....
  • Liberal
    Other Party
    Llos Angeles, CA
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    None of these opinions matter.....because clearly....to a believer all facts are opinions. People can do so many great things in a day. We reason at work, we balance our check books, we multi task paying bills along with taking care of our.kids....These same people who accomplish so much in daily life wake up on Sunday and worship FANTASY. That absolutely makes no sense
    Some say we never landed on the moon, even argue it.....there's a new conspiracy around every corner, people questioning everything......and on Sunday......question nothing from a stranger in funny clothing wearing an oversized head piece.

    Is this not the definition of crazy? Especially the rituals performed at church....a little latin, some wine, some crackers, some ooohhss and ahhhhs and a whole lot of beads and crosses. and thats all it takes. A secret handshake with a bleesing is all that's needed to cofirm their insanity. No math, no chemistry, no biology and physics......Just props.
    And they call me a weirdo....go figure
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    L.A. Citizen Wrote: None of these opinions matter.....because clearly....to a believer all facts are opinions. People can do so many great things in a day. We reason at work, we balance our check books, we multi task paying bills along with taking care of our.kids....These same people who accomplish so much in daily life wake up on Sunday and worship FANTASY. That absolutely makes no sense
    Some say we never landed on the moon, even argue it.....there's a new conspiracy around every corner, people questioning everything......and on Sunday......question nothing from a stranger in funny clothing wearing an oversized head piece.

    Is this not the definition of crazy? Especially the rituals performed at church....a little latin, some wine, some crackers, some ooohhss and ahhhhs and a whole lot of beads and crosses. and thats all it takes. A secret handshake with a bleesing is all that's needed to cofirm their insanity. No math, no chemistry, no biology and physics......Just props.
    And they call me a weirdo....go figure
    L.A. you've got the picture; but 80% or more of this country falls for it; I still don't know why. The results of this also shows up at election time. But yeah, it is all "god's" will ( an easy escape of reality)