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Misogyny and guns

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  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    The killing of six young women at the University of California Santa Barbara has brought focus again on both the mentally sick and the gun cult. However, we should not just dismiss the mass murder as the act of another mentally unstable person. This person was that, but more specifically he was a misogynist, a person who hates women and girls.

    The Southern Poverty Law Center has identified several websites that cater to misogynists.

    Southern Poverty Law Center, Spring 2012: Misogyny: The Sites

    "The so-called “manosphere” is peopled with hundreds of websites, blogs and forums dedicated to savaging feminists in particular and women, very typically American women, in general. Although some of the sites make an attempt at civility and try to back their arguments with facts, they are almost all thick with misogynistic attacks that can be astounding for the guttural hatred they express. What follows are brief descriptions of a dozen of these sites."

    I won't go into those, but the very fact that the internet has "hundreds of websites" of varying degree that demonize women in some of the most despicable language in the dictionary is more a testament to our society. And mixing misogynists with guns is a recipe for a violent ending as happened at UCSB.

    The person was not likely a misogynist at birth. The combination of his family upbringing, particularly his mother and father, and later his negative experiences with women and his infatuation with misogynist websites perhaps were factors in his mental state...or indeed the mental state of all those that create these awful sick websites or visit them on a regular basis.

    I understand that they are exercising their first amendment rights to "free speech," but where do we draw the line?
  • Independent
    Widefield, CO
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    Schmidt Wrote: The killing of six young women at the University of California Santa Barbara has brought focus again on both the mentally sick and the gun cult. However, we should not just dismiss the mass murder as the act of another mentally unstable person. This person was that, but more specifically he was a misogynist, a person who hates women and girls.

    The Southern Poverty Law Center has identified several websites that cater to misogynists.

    Southern Poverty Law Center, Spring 2012: Misogyny: The Sites

    "The so-called “manosphere” is peopled with hundreds of websites, blogs and forums dedicated to savaging feminists in particular and women, very typically American women, in general. Although some of the sites make an attempt at civility and try to back their arguments with facts, they are almost all thick with misogynistic attacks that can be astounding for the guttural hatred they express. What follows are brief descriptions of a dozen of these sites."

    I won't go into those, but the very fact that the internet has "hundreds of websites" of varying degree that demonize women in some of the most despicable language in the dictionary is more a testament to our society. And mixing misogynists with guns is a recipe for a violent ending as happened at UCSB.

    The person was not likely a misogynist at birth. The combination of his family upbringing, particularly his mother and father, and later his negative experiences with women and his infatuation with misogynist websites perhaps were factors in his mental state...or indeed the mental state of all those that create these awful sick websites or visit them on a regular basis.

    I understand that they are exercising their first amendment rights to "free speech," but where do we draw the line?
    Except if you actually read about his manifesto, he wasn't a misogynist... He didn't specifically target the women, in fact he murdered his two room mates (Male by the way) more violently than shooting them. He stabbed them to death. His manifesto says that he hates them all, the females that rejected him, the MALES that rejected him and thought they were better than him. Hate filled? yes. Misogynist? Nope, otherwise why kill his male room mates? BTW, the death toll from the guy was 8, not six...

    Some of those sites have decent points... Schmidt, do you know what it takes for a man to get convicted of rape or molestation in practically every state in the US? The answer may surprise you...

    Know the problem with the gun laws that many democrats try to get passed? Eventually the only citizens with guns will be the criminals...
  • Democrat
    Athens, GA
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    I sure hope the police and the shrinks and the parents learn from this tragedy.

    This young mass murderer was screwed up to the max. His parents knew this! Shame on all the shrinks and police who didn't know and/or did nothing!!!!! Ah, we need a national gun registery. We need to know who owns which guns. The grumpy old men won't like this. So, start it from here on. You'll welcome to own a gun and the police are welcome to know about the guns you own. OK with me!

    And, a better state and country would look for guns associated with every complaint about a possibly violent young man. The NRA won't like that because it might interfere with gun sales. I care more about lives than about $$$$ for gun manufacturers. I hope you do, too.
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Yes I stand corrected on the dead...four men and two women plus 13 wounded. His main target, however, seemed to be the sorority house to which he was barred entry and instead killed two women outside.

    In reading several articles about the motive, all the killings appear random. However, in reading several excerpts from his manifesto, it is hard not to label him misogynist. I just won't print those excerpts here. The misogynist label fits a general stereotype, but there are degrees of misogyny and many men have some characteristics (male chauvinists) but are not capable of homicide. Rush Limbaugh for one appears to be a misogynist demonstrated by his rantings, particulay those directed at Sandra Fluke. However, Limbaugh, in my opinion, isn't capable of mass murder with his own hands. He might inspire some lunatic though through his inflammatory words.
  • Independent
    Widefield, CO
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    MoiBree Wrote: I sure hope the police and the shrinks and the parents learn from this tragedy.

    This young mass murderer was screwed up to the max. His parents knew this! Shame on all the shrinks and police who didn't know and/or did nothing!!!!! Ah, we need a national gun registery. We need to know who owns which guns. The grumpy old men won't like this. So, start it from here on. You'll welcome to own a gun and the police are welcome to know about the guns you own. OK with me!

    And, a better state and country would look for guns associated with every complaint about a possibly violent young man. The NRA won't like that because it might interfere with gun sales. I care more about lives than about $$$$ for gun manufacturers. I hope you do, too.
    And how would a gun registry have made one lick of difference in this tragedy? Was he a felon? Was he barred from gun ownership? Was there any indicators on his public record prior to this that would have thrown up a red flag? Nope, there would still be six people dead and 13 wounded. Not to mention that two weren't even shot, they were stabbed to death... Common sense MoiBree, a lot of the gun crimes (especially the ones that make the national news with multiple people dead) are by people who had no reason not to be allowed to carry a gun.
  • Center Left
    Independent
    Denton, TX
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    RanmaMOJ Wrote: And how would a gun registry have made one lick of difference in this tragedy? Was he a felon? Was he barred from gun ownership? Was there any indicators on his public record prior to this that would have thrown up a red flag? Nope, there would still be six people dead and 13 wounded. Not to mention that two weren't even shot, they were stabbed to death... Common sense MoiBree, a lot of the gun crimes (especially the ones that make the national news with multiple people dead) are by people who had no reason not to be allowed to carry a gun.
    I tend to agree with you on this RanmaMOJ. But the argument that "only criminals will have guns" breaks down when you look at every other sizable country that has regulated guns: Australia, England, Sweden, Norway, etc. The gun violence in those countries is practically non-existent (about 1/10 the rate of the US per 100,000 people).

    On the other end of the spectrum, you have Switzerland, which, if I remember correctly, somewhere around 90% of households have guns and gun violence there is also quite low (about 1/4 the rate of the US per 100,000 people). But they are a fraction of the US population. Also, every single male must serve in the military so they are trained in gun safety and how to handle their weapons. They also have a culture of neutrality and peace. These are both things that don't exist in the US.

    So, RanmaMOJ, taking these facts into consideration, what, if anything, should be done to address 10,000 yearly gun deaths per year?
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Zach F Wrote:
    RanmaMOJ Wrote: And how would a gun registry have made one lick of difference in this tragedy? Was he a felon? Was he barred from gun ownership? Was there any indicators on his public record prior to this that would have thrown up a red flag? Nope, there would still be six people dead and 13 wounded. Not to mention that two weren't even shot, they were stabbed to death... Common sense MoiBree, a lot of the gun crimes (especially the ones that make the national news with multiple people dead) are by people who had no reason not to be allowed to carry a gun.
    I tend to agree with you on this RanmaMOJ. But the argument that "only criminals will have guns" breaks down when you look at every other sizable country that has regulated guns: Australia, England, Sweden, Norway, etc. The gun violence in those countries is practically non-existent (about 1/10 the rate of the US per 100,000 people).

    On the other end of the spectrum, you have Switzerland, which, if I remember correctly, somewhere around 90% of households have guns and gun violence there is also quite low (about 1/4 the rate of the US per 100,000 people). But they are a fraction of the US population. Also, every single male must serve in the military so they are trained in gun safety and how to handle their weapons. They also have a culture of neutrality and peace. These are both things that don't exist in the US.

    So, RanmaMOJ, taking these facts into consideration, what, if anything, should be done to address 10,000 yearly gun deaths per year?
    It is quite simple; change the attitude and mentality in this country. How? start with the government; term limits; stop the NRA lobby; tax the hell out of the gun industry; stop glorifying "killing" by the army as well on TV and games; put heavy fines on the media industry if they continue this.
    Stop our wars and get rid of the Rambo culture; educate our kids much better; stop all gun and knife shows; help the poor; tax the "lobby barrons" with 75% like they do in France. etc etc. Put all the war mongers in jail. Anyone who put loaded guns on the kitchen table with the safety off and the kid gets killed should get life in prison.
    This is just a start; but likely this will never get done; "money" is in control and is more powerful than "jesus" here.
  • Liberal
    Independent
    Durham, NH
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    And, play more video games!
  • Other Party
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    You people are judgmental!
  • Democrat
    Missouri
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    No, just having a variety of opinions on issues that impact humanity. If it hurts, destroys, useless, unappreciated, derogatory, careless, unimaginable, and just plain inhumane contributed to a lawless society, we all have our opinions against it. Judgmental, maybe, but throughout history there are more judges having convicted people in body and spirit than those that live for the blessed gift of life and joy of God. Leave the judging to God, but I as many will continue to have opinions on about anything that interests me to respond.

    Again, on Gun Control, as I have several threads already in the Democratic Hub, mental health initiatives and lack of Gun Control continues to threaten peaceful existence and sustaining life in society.

    Support Gun Control and Mental Health Initiatives. The world and America is full of examples of why our current methods and actions are not working. I have no respect for the NRA and politicians that support the NRA. These people and America have it wrong on the interpretation of the Second Amendment.
  • Independent
    Widefield, CO
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    Dutch Wrote: It is quite simple; change the attitude and mentality in this country. How? start with the government; term limits; stop the NRA lobby; tax the hell out of the gun industry; stop glorifying "killing" by the army as well on TV and games; put heavy fines on the media industry if they continue this.
    Stop our wars and get rid of the Rambo culture; educate our kids much better; stop all gun and knife shows; help the poor; tax the "lobby barrons" with 75% like they do in France. etc etc. Put all the war mongers in jail. Anyone who put loaded guns on the kitchen table with the safety off and the kid gets killed should get life in prison.
    This is just a start; but likely this will never get done; "money" is in control and is more powerful than "jesus" here.
    Dutch, almost everything you have said is either in violation of the First Amendment (I thought the Liberals were supposed to be champions of the First Amendment), putting police in homes (how else would they know where the gun is in the house. And now you have a Liberal advocating loss of privacy rights...) or taxing an industry they don't like (And look at how 'well' that worked for cigarettes.) Your right, what you are suggesting will never get done, not because of the money but because of us have common sense.

    1st Amendment violations suggested by Dutch
    'Stop the NRA lobby'
    'Put heavy fines on the media for 'glorifying' killing by the Army' (What is with you and your hate affair with the military Dutch? You've got the right to say those things granted, but you do realize who GAVE you those rights don't you? THE MILITARY, or do you think England was going to let the colonists have rights just because we asked them nicely?)
    'Stop all gun and knife shows' (As long as they are legal you can't stop the shows without violating free speech laws AND interfering in commerce)
    'Tax the lobby barons' (Tax someone for exercising free speech? Yeah, lets do like France, a country that spent millions on a great defense and NEVER used it because they surrendered... )
    'Put all war mongers in jail' (What are you going to advocate next Dutch? Putting all misogynists in prison? Putting all Conservatives in prison? You are advocating putting someone in prison for having an opinion...)

    About the only thin you said that I agree with Dutch is that we need to change the attitude and mentality in this country. The first step is for the media and others to BLAME THE PERSON, NOT THE GUN. Its always things like "Gun's killed these people" or "X number of people killed by gun violence... The gun didn't kill anyone, the PERSON WHO PULLED THE TRIGGER DID.

    Zach, look at Japan, they have some of the strictest gun laws in the world, and they (especially in their cities) have quite a lot of gun violence. And who commits it? The Yakuza, the criminals who don't care what the law says. Now look at Canada, their cities are among the safest and their gun laws are fairly lax (I don't even think they have the equivalent of the Brady Bill)

    You want to end gun violence? Increase training in how to PROPERLY use guns. Increase penalties for gun crimes. Make it a federal offence to use a gun in the commission of a crime. Create a registry (like the SO registry) of people who use guns in crimes and post notices everywhere (demonize them like Sexually Violent Predators are demonized [rightfully so]) There's a system in the works (still in early stages of development) that would 'mark' a bullet making it so that there's no guessing as to who fired it, that system needs to have more money put towards it. It would end the anonymity of firing a gun or using 'throw away' guns.
  • Center Left
    Independent
    Denton, TX
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    Canadian gun laws are all about registration and they have extensive background checks. Japan has the 4th lowest gun violence rating in the world. 1/170th the rate of the U.S. per 100,000 people. South Korea is right there with them and they also have very restrictive guns laws.

    As for the other stuff, I think lobbying in general needs a major overhaul or to be done away with altogether. "Vote for a bill and I will donate to your campaign" is essentially bribery. It's not classified as bribery right now because the money doesn't go straight to the official, but it needs to be. There should be no money or gifts allowed in the lobbying process, if your argument can't hold up on it's own without monetary backup, then your argument is probably bad.

    Fining media for violence is ridiculous. If people didn't want to see violence they would turn off the TV. The rating system is perfectly fine

    Being able to avoid both the background check and waiting period for a gun at a gun show is needs to be fixed. The background check for certain. We live in a modern world of instant information, background checks can be done on an iPad.

    Putting warmongers in jail would be atrocious. You can't jail someone for expressing an opinion.


    In conclusion, I couldn't find a country with restrictive gun laws that also had a high gun violence rating. On the other hand, the lesser regulated countries tended to have much higher gun violence rate, Switzerland and New Zealand being two of the exceptions. And remember, the 2nd Amendment has 'well-regulated' and 'militia' in the wording suggesting people who chose to bear arms be part of a state militia, such as they were in when the Constitution was drafted.
  • Center Left
    Independent
    Charlotte, NC
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    Zach F Wrote: As for the other stuff, I think lobbying in general needs a major overhaul or to be done away with altogether. "Vote for a bill and I will donate to your campaign" is essentially bribery. It's not classified as bribery right now because the money doesn't go straight to the official, but it needs to be. There should be no money or gifts allowed in the lobbying process, if your argument can't hold up on it's own without monetary backup, then your argument is probably bad.
    Exactly.
  • Other Party
    Nebraska
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    A couple of problems...

    The USA has more than 300 million guns out there already, lots of them illegal and unregistered. Can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. No one can EVER get them all back. Not even close.

    The gun lobbyists OWN many of our so called leaders, who are "serving" the American public.

    The ..."lobbying in general needs a major overhaul or to be done away with altogether."... Yes, absolutely right, but the inmates are in charge of the asylum, and they won't change the rules that greatly benefit them. They're getting RICH up there in D.C. They are more likely to EXPAND the power and influence that the special interests have, make it EASIER, to legally bribe more of our politicians, not harder.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    jamesn Wrote: A couple of problems...

    The USA has more than 300 million guns out there already, lots of them illegal and unregistered. Can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. No one can EVER get them all back. Not even close.

    The gun lobbyists OWN many of our so called leaders, who are "serving" the American public.

    The ..."lobbying in general needs a major overhaul or to be done away with altogether."... Yes, absolutely right, but the inmates are in charge of the asylum, and they won't change the rules that greatly benefit them. They're getting RICH up there in D.C. They are more likely to EXPAND the power and influence that the special interests have, make it EASIER, to legally bribe more of our politicians, not harder.

    "jamesn" you said it right; I tried it also many times, however there are certain people who think the problem will solve itself and even defend the gun lobby and their their position like Ramojo (the intelligence officer; he claims he is).