Forum Thread

Keystone Pipeline just doesn't make sense

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  • Democrat
    Missouri
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    For all it's worth, a permanent installed pipeline just doesn't make sense geographically where land and water resources impact people living in the area. A pipeline that would impact ground water systems and contaminate the area where people live and work just doesn't make sense.

    This morning on Yahoo News, Los Angeles has had a major pipeline break spilling thousands of gallons of crude oil with reports of waste deep oil on the streets. Why would anybody engineer a pipeline through a major city? That's a shoot-the-engineer topic of discussion.

    I am of the belief that maintaining rail and truck transport of oil crude is still the best method. I believe we have had this subject reported before in this forum and that statistics show less spillage and damage has been by rail and truck transport. The worst spills and damage has been by ship and pipeline. Please .............any thoughts, but before you respond, inquire on today's reporting of LA's pipeline disaster.

    Running a pipeline through an earthquake zoned area is stupid and mindless, just like the concept of the Keystone pipeline, where the earth top layer moves much all the time.
  • Other Party
    Nebraska
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    Amc you say ..."I am of the belief that maintaining rail and truck transport of oil crude is still the best method."...

    But most all the statistics say otherwise. You are free to believe what you want to believe, just like the people who deny global warming are free to believe what they want. While the statistics are there, common sense and evidence is overwhelming that pipelines are safer, you can't be forced to believe it.

    By the way when the leak was discovered, the pipeline was remotely shut off, something which is impossible when a train derails. Also 1.3 million gallons were not spilled nor 47 people killed like the train accident last July.

    There is no mode of transport that is completely safe, spills are always going to occur, but pipelines are the safer, more environmentally friendly way to go. But just like the global warming deniers, you don't have to believe it.

    Isn't it just as stupid and mindless to have railroad tracks running through an earthquake zoned area?

    Do you REALLY hate the environment enough to want trucks and trains to carry an increasing amount of oil?

    Build the pipeline!
  • Independent
    Fresno, CA
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    Warren Buffett with his BN-SF railroad would like to continue to see oil transported on his line. He changes $30/barrel for his services. A pipeline would cause $B of losses for him and his investors. Hmmmm, I thought the end of the railroad robber barons ended.

    One great issue we have, in addition to transporting oil, is the lack of refining facilities in the US. We haven't constructed any for several years. So the necessity to pipe crude to various locations in the nation where we currently have processing capabilities.

    I do concur with your concern about running a pipeline through an earthquake zone. However, in CA, many damaging industries are constructed over faults. It is the nature of California.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    SwampyJackpot6 Wrote: Warren Buffett with his BN-SF railroad would like to continue to see oil transported on his line. He changes $30/barrel for his services. A pipeline would cause $B of losses for him and his investors. Hmmmm, I thought the end of the railroad robber barons ended.

    One great issue we have, in addition to transporting oil, is the lack of refining facilities in the US. We haven't constructed any for several years. So the necessity to pipe crude to various locations in the nation where we currently have processing capabilities.

    I do concur with your concern about running a pipeline through an earthquake zone. However, in CA, many damaging industries are constructed over faults. It is the nature of California.
    I guess you mean "charge" instead of change; however whichever way pipeline or rail or ship they all have the same risks; that is part of life. unles we want to go back to the ice age. Therefore we can argue forever what is the safest way; but guaranteed whatever is choosen will probably fail in the future. The point is, as is the case of aviation ( Flt 370) or recent railroad accidents, we stay to be humans which can fail from time to time. In the aviation industry I was faced with people who manipulated maintenance records; I guess that happens all over the place knowing this country. So what is real safe?
  • Other Party
    Nebraska
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    "NEW OWNER OF RAILROAD PLANS TO SHIP OIL"

    That's the headline from the Associated Press story printed May 16, 2014.

    "Portland Maine--The new owner of the railroad responsible for a fiery oil-train derailment that claimed 47 lives in Quebec said he plans to restart oil shipments after making safety improvements.
    John Giles, chief executive officer of the Central Maine and Quebec Railway, said Friday that the company must first make track improvements.
    He hopes to have an agreement with Lac Megantic, Quebec, within 10 days to resume shipments of nonhazardous goods, restoring the vital rail link to the east and west. The company's timetable calls for resuming oil shipments in 18 months.
    Giles company closed on the sale of U.S. assets of the bankrupt Montreal, Maine and Atlantic Railway on Thursday. The firm is expected to close on the Canadian assets in a couple of weeks."

    Free advice to residents of Lac Megantic: don't buy or rent next to the tracks!

    For the safety of the environment and the residents of North America...Build the Keystone pipeline!
  • Are you sure you want to delete this post?
        
    The OIL industry only exists to enrich the GOP, who have owned all the OIL companies here for a hundred years. The KOCH BROS for one, have earned most of their money from an OIL industry begun by their father (Fred C. Koch) who learned it all from the USSR (Joseph Stalin).

    We should be shifting our resources to Solar and Wind Power, & phasing out nuclear power and oil pipelines. I agree with the original poster who said that oil cars & oil pipelines are outdated, highly dangerous, & prone to earthquakes & floods. The Canadians have made a wasteland out of Alberta, it looks like the face of the MOON, except it is filthy, dirty, & reeks of dead animals & fish. Nothing can live there.

    In the arguments about relative safety of rail cars VS pipelines, DO NOT FORGET that major oil spills have NEVER been successfully cleaned up to make a fit environment for human habitation. The devastation to human & animal life, cannot be quantified. That oil is TOXIC & POISONOUS --- and human life to be destroyed, cannot be replaced. We have gotten ourselves into a quagmire we may never get out of. We do not really have any good solution available. Consider OIL as being a PLAGUE. We MUST somehow switch to Solar and Wind Energy --- or DIE.

    Why do we HAVE to stop the KEYSTONE Pipeline? It is a question of Human Survival. That pipeline is set to go thru a part of the USA which has earthquakes fairly often. Then it goes thru some prime cropland, where much of our food supply originates. If it breaks, it could destroy a gigantic wonder of nature, an aquifer that supplies 5 states with water. It took Mother Nature 8 million years to make that aquifer. But it is delicate. If a pipe breaks, it can spread oil into the entire 5 states water supply, which waters our crops to eat & our cattle, sheep, & meat supplies. Not to mention millions of humans need that water to drink, cook with, bathe in, etc. ONCE that aquifer gets polluted with filthy oil, it can NEVER be cleaned up, just like all the OTHER places where oil has leaked.

    And "tar sands" oil is much WORSE than just the common pollutants that are in the ordinary pipelines. Tar sands oil does not float (so it could be skimmed off) but it sinks & bounces along the river bottom, & the fumes from that oil alone has required whole towns to be evacuated (forever) because you can't breathe the air. You can't even put your hand near the water, or touch it, & all the fish immediately die. People have to abandon the cities because all the air & water are forever polluted & non-useable. Forever.

    Once that aquifer gets "polluted" like that, it CANNOT be FIXED or REPAIRED. It supplies 5 states, with drinking water & cropland irrigation. WE KNOW that those tar sands pipelines rupture at least once a year. BUT in the AQUIFER, the damage it does cannot ever be repaired. The water cannot ever be detoxified. The damage done is immediate & permanent. It would contaminate all human & animal life in FIVE STATES. All the milk & grain & crops grown in those areas would be contaminated, dead, or un-useable. THINK ABOUT IT in REALITY. It would be a CRIME AGAINST GOD & NATURE to allow that to happen. Especially just so some "other nation" can PROFIT from the oil, & NOT US. It is just a conduit for "foreign oil" which will be put into a ship & transported to other nations. The US will NOT PROFIT at all, from tar sands oil.

    The aquifer also goes across Indian lands, where wonderful tribes that were here before Christopher Columbus ever arrived, have lived in peace, on land given to them by our first settlers. (It really DID belong to the Indians, in reality, & by treaty now, they still live there). We at least owe them the tranquility of living on THEIR land, without worry of pollution & poison destroying their air, water, & crops. THAT WOULD be
    a CRIME against HUMANITY. --- God Bless the tribes who went to Wash DC recently to protest the Keystone Pipeline.

    For anyone who would allow damage to that Aquifer, just so some greedy Republicans could PROFIT off of Foreign Oil - It's like when the GOP start a War, which us middle class Americans have to FIGHT in, & get crippled or DIE in, so that the greedy GOP can walk off with billions of $$ in profits, (& our soldiers are left injured or in pain), & the GOP walk off grinning, since they have just filled all their Swiss bank accts with more non-taxable money. NOW the GOP want to destroy all OUR homes, land & drinking water, just to put more $$ into their Swiss bank accts?

    IT IS TIME TO JUST SAY NO --- NO --- NO!! We the People of the UNITED STATES demand the GOP keep their greedy hands OFF of the OGALLALA AQUIFER. "It is now the 12th hour -- WE ARE THE ONES WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR..."
  • Democrat
    Missouri
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    Eternal Flame................Great, Great Rant!

    I totally believe entirely everything you wrote. It is about saving our country, saving America's beauty, saving our people. The proponents of the Keystone pipeline are entirely in denial, lied to, and absolutely wrong pushing the pipeline industry as if this is a cure for more jobs. When the land becomes polluted it may be jobs nobody wants or our country cannot afford, the land will become a wasteland of pollution. It is stupid to threaten existence with greed and ignorance.

    Thank you for your support opposing the Keystone Pipeline, America needs to become smarter and adamant standing against greed and selfish desires of people who do not care for America. People need to stand up against this act of environmental destruction.
  • Other Party
    Nebraska
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    Amc I agree with you about ..."saving our country, saving America's beauty, saving our people."...

    And the best way to do that as far as transporting oil in this country is by building the pipeline. The pipeline is safer than trains, and safer than trucks.

    So if you REALLY wanted to save our country, save America's beauty, save our people, you'd support the pipeline. Because the pipeline is safer, more effecient, and less likely to spill 1.3 million gallons of oil, explode, and kill 47 people like the train did last year.

    But you don't have to support the safer, more logical way to transport the oil. That's up to you.

    Build the pipeline!
  • Center Left Democrat
    Democrat
    Flagstaff, AZ
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    The Keystone pipeline was in the news again this morning. Apparently the Democrats plan to vote on it during the lame duck session in order to help Mary Landrieu's run off election in Louisiana. She is currently the chair of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee.

    http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/weird/2014/11/08/michigan-rocketry-group-launch-porta-potty/18716569/

    I've long been opposed to this thing for environmental reasons, and the fact that it will only generate 35 permanent jobs only strengthens my opposition.

    http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/feb/10/van-jones/cnns-van-jones-says-keystone-pipeline-only-creates/

    The most important reason for opposing it, though, is that it will reduce profits going to the Koch brothers. It's actually not true that they would earn a $100 billion from the pipeline, but it IS true that they have substantial land holdings in the tar sands of Canada.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/10/22/the-kochs-will-not-make-a-100-billion-profit-from-keystone-xl/

    If the Democrats are smart enough to actually kill this thing, the next step is to rapidly improve the safety of the rail cars that are currently being used to move it around the country.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    that guy in Arizona Wrote: The Keystone pipeline was in the news again this morning. Apparently the Democrats plan to vote on it during the lame duck session in order to help Mary Landrieu's run off election in Louisiana. She is currently the chair of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee.

    http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/weird/2014/11/08/michigan-rocketry-group-launch-porta-potty/18716569/

    I've long been opposed to this thing for environmental reasons, and the fact that will only generate 35 permanent jobs only strengthens my opposition.

    http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/feb/10/van-jones/cnns-van-jones-says-keystone-pipeline-only-creates/

    The most important reason for opposing it, though, is that it will reduce profits going to the Koch brothers. It's actually not true that they would earn a $100 billion from the pipeline, but it IS true that they have substantial land holdings in the tar sands of Canada.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/10/22/the-kochs-will-not-make-a-100-billion-profit-from-keystone-xl/

    If the Democrats are smart enough to actually kill this thing, the next step is to rapidly improve the safety of the rail cars that are currently being used to move it around the country.
    Guy, like you said about the Koch brothers; why are the GOP so very keen on getting this thing? There must be more in it for them I guess.
  • Democrat
    Missouri
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    I hope Obama can stay the vote for his term, but I doubt it. His presidency will be pressured with options to consider, that if he approves the pipeline than America can have these benefits. The negotiations will be brutal and thought-provoking for any President to consider. I'm afraid that this horrible pipeline that America does not need will be passed. History will record the President responsible, but the true history of the people behind the vote will never see ink in a history book. America will blast Obama for signing the approval on the pipeline "AND" America will rejoice for the approval, but these people will be the first to be silenced when the tragedy of pipeline disaster occurs. If only, America can sue all the promoters of the pipeline, including the Koch's, for pipeline disasters. No, all the lawsuits will go back to the Canadian company pushing the pipeline. All the investors, like the Koch's will be running away from any exposure to the pipeline.

    Be ready, the pipeline will have a long history of disaster when it's completed. Just how much of useful land will be destroyed and people's livelihood will be impacted are yet to be recorded.
  • Liberal
    Other Party
    Llos Angeles, CA
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    AmcmurryFreedom Wrote: I hope Obama can stay the vote for his term, but I doubt it. His presidency will be pressured with options to consider, that if he approves the pipeline than America can have these benefits. The negotiations will be brutal and thought-provoking for any President to consider. I'm afraid that this horrible pipeline that America does not need will be passed. History will record the President responsible, but the true history of the people behind the vote will never see ink in a history book. America will blast Obama for signing the approval on the pipeline "AND" America will rejoice for the approval, but these people will be the first to be silenced when the tragedy of pipeline disaster occurs. If only, America can sue all the promoters of the pipeline, including the Koch's, for pipeline disasters. No, all the lawsuits will go back to the Canadian company pushing the pipeline. All the investors, like the Koch's will be running away from any exposure to the pipeline.

    Be ready, the pipeline will have a long history of disaster when it's completed. Just how much of useful land will be destroyed and people's livelihood will be impacted are yet to be recorded.
    But going to Iraq in the name of patriotism (for the flow cheap oil) is totally okay with you...But damn, an oil pipeline in my back yard....Hell no! That's when AMC becomes anti-government. You sir...are a double edged hippocrite
  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    This topic has been discussed many times on this site. Dozens of opinions have been stated on various threads. I am very much against the Keystone pipeline. Reasons are: This form of crude is nasty. It doesn't readily flow (Too thick) so chemicals are added to it. - Problem -, Also if you spend a couple of minutes on Google and look up a map of US pipelines..... you'll see we have a huge number of them already (thousands of miles of pipelines). A large number go into Houston. Imagine for a moment if there was an earthquake in Houston and suddenly you have 12 - 20 pipelines gushing out whatever they are pumping. Huge mess and insufficient numbers of trained personnel to deal with it.
    **********
    The Canadian (and soon to be North Dakota) crude is different. Because of the chemicals added, it's an ecological mess in Canada and it will be at it's destination as well as they try to separate the chemicals. Huge amounts of by-products as well, which is another pollutant. The Koch brothers have found customers in Mexico and China who will buy it because they have no concern for the ecology and they burn it as fuel.
    ***********
    If you want crude oil, buy it from Venezuela, Eastern Africa, or somewhere else.
  • Liberal
    Other Party
    Llos Angeles, CA
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    Tony,

    This country invades other countries for the control of natural resources, oil, bananas, yucca, siver, gold...it doesn't matter. We get it first. We get it cheap. I'm all for it.

    But lets be honest. In order for me to continue to be a gluttonous American Pig,,,,people in other countries must suffer so that I can throw half my plate down the disposal.

    Somebody has to be the pig...why not me. AMC and countless others in this forum can't seem to be honest about that. They hide behind words like Patriotism, Oaths, in the middle, exceptionalism and and racial equality. Fear of exposing themselves. And all this concern for for every group wanting validation makes me laugh.
    I could claim to be a one legged gorilla who robs banks and someone in this forum would write something "in the middle"... and start quoting Amendments, religious nonsense, equality, love and harmony.....and attach web links in support of their nonsense......Hillarious. I love this forum. This is the best entertainment I can ask for
  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    L.A.,
    As Dutch has said...... I love what you add to this site. You're right, the US has done things in a corrupt ass backwards way for far too long. All we can do is continue to hope that it gets better a little bit at a time. I hope that fate deals a dose of justice to those who are stealing, cheating, lying and other bad actions. Justice needs to raise it's head once in a while.
    I agree with what you are saying about some others. I know that I shouldn't be telling others how to live their lives. I guess some here are so brilliant that they can't help but to try to shape/improve everybody.