Forum Thread

The federal taxpayer is a myth. and what a good economy should look like

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  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Dallas, TX
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    There are many good reasons to raise taxes on the rich, but providing the currency issuing government with the revenue it needs to spend is not one of them. Government and/or its designated agents have to spend/lend the dollar first, and then we can pay our taxes and/or buy government debt. Our understanding of the federal taxpayer is a myth used to control and divide us. Taxes regulate our spending, not the government's. You either believe in an informed electorate, knowledgeable about what our government's policy space really is, or you believe in controlling people with fear so they will behave a certain way. Or you can throw up a wall of cognitive dissonance and just ignore the subject. Have it your way. But there's little hope of a good economy in our lifetimes without coming to terms with our national ignorance over fiscal/monetary operations.

    Warren Mosler, "What a Good Economy Should Look Like" (video):

    "In a good economy business competes for people. There is a shortage of people to work for business. Everybody wants to hire you. They'll train you, whatever it takes. They hire students before they get out of school. You can change jobs if you want to because other companies are always trying to hire you. That's the way the economy is supposed to be but that's all turned around. For one reason, which I'll keep coming back to, the budget deficit is too small. As soon as they started tightening up on budget deficits many years ago, we transformed from a good economy where the people were the most important thing to what I call this 'crime against humanity' that we have today."
  • Other Party
    Nebraska
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    This is fantastic news!

    Do you have the number I can call and get my money back since I am not a federal taxpayer?

    Just think...all these years I have been sending in checks because I thought I WAS a federal taxpayer.

    I think I want ALL my money back since I am not a federal taxpayer after all!
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Carlitos Wrote: There are many good reasons to raise taxes on the rich, but providing the currency issuing government with the revenue it needs to spend is not one of them. Government and/or its designated agents have to spend/lend the dollar first, and then we can pay our taxes and/or buy government debt. Our understanding of the federal taxpayer is a myth used to control and divide us. Taxes regulate our spending, not the government's. You either believe in an informed electorate, knowledgeable about what our government's policy space really is, or you believe in controlling people with fear so they will behave a certain way. Or you can throw up a wall of cognitive dissonance and just ignore the subject. Have it your way. But there's little hope of a good economy in our lifetimes without coming to terms with our national ignorance over fiscal/monetary operations.

    Warren Mosler, "What a Good Economy Should Look Like" (video):

    "In a good economy business competes for people. There is a shortage of people to work for business. Everybody wants to hire you. They'll train you, whatever it takes. They hire students before they get out of school. You can change jobs if you want to because other companies are always trying to hire you. That's the way the economy is supposed to be but that's all turned around. For one reason, which I'll keep coming back to, the budget deficit is too small. As soon as they started tightening up on budget deficits many years ago, we transformed from a good economy where the people were the most important thing to what I call this 'crime against humanity' that we have today."
    Thanks CBB --

    In your other posts, you've provided correlations that go back 200 years. Whenever we've tried to balance the budget or otherwise constrain government spending because of worries about debt, the economy has either gone into a recession or a depression. Those are easily checkable facts that everyone should embrace...unless you are ideologically driven in the opposite way.
  • Other Party
    Nebraska
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    I guess all I will need is a note from CBB to give to my tax man next year when he over-charges me for doing my taxes.

    When he tells me how much federal tax I owe, I'll just hand him the note which says that the federal taxpayer ..."is a myth"... and I'm sure the IRS will be completely satisfied with that instead of a check for actual money.

    The IRS will be very understanding...sure they will! Unless they are ideologically driven in the opposite way, of course.
  • Liberal
    Other Party
    Llos Angeles, CA
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    jamesn Wrote: I guess all I will need is a note from CBB to give to my tax man next year when he over-charges me for doing my taxes.

    When he tells me how much federal tax I owe, I'll just hand him the note which says that the federal taxpayer ..."is a myth"... and I'm sure the IRS will be completely satisfied with that instead of a check for actual money.

    The IRS will be very understanding...sure they will! Unless they are ideologically driven in the opposite way, of course.
    all the way to prison is how understanding they'll be
  • Center Left
    Independent
    Denton, TX
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    jamesn Wrote: This is fantastic news!

    Do you have the number I can call and get my money back since I am not a federal taxpayer?

    Just think...all these years I have been sending in checks because I thought I WAS a federal taxpayer.

    I think I want ALL my money back since I am not a federal taxpayer after all!
    He's not saying its a myth that you need to pay your taxes. He's saying that money comes from the government and we buy the debt, and not the other way around where we fund the government and then they take on the debt. Or something like that. Basically, he's pointing out what he believes to be an economic fallacy, the distribution and circulation process of U.S. money. He's not saying, "Congratulations! You don't really have to pay your taxes!" Cmon jamesn... you know better than that, sir.
  • Other Party
    Nebraska
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    sb I am merely pointing out the fallacy of the sentence: "The federal taxpayer is a myth."
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Dallas, TX
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    sbfriedman has it right.

    it's a rhetorical tactic.

    the point is that the federal government doesn't face a financial solvency constraint.

    there are political constraints. a budget authorization by Congress is a constraint. the debt-ceiling is a political constraint.

    there are REAL constraints (real resources, stuff for the government to buy, population)

    but there is nothing to stop the government from purchasing anything that is available for sale in its own currency should it chose and is allowed to do so.

    government debt is denominated in U.S. dollars and represents a government savings account.

    this is a tool to fix interest rates not provide bond revenue for the government to spend.

    the U.S. government is 17 trillion in debt and yet every year it's "allowed" to "roll over" the national debt 4 times, and over the last decade the U.S. Treasury has redeemed over $400 trillion in government securities, and it's issued 17 trillion more than redeemed.

    clearly something VERY different is going on for the currency issuer than for the currency user, no?