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Bill Nye debates Ken Ham on evolution vs creationism

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  • Other Party
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    I've just finished watching the debate of 5th Feb and while I confess to saying 'no' to the debate topic of "Is creation a viable model of origins in today's modern scientific era ?" I would like to comment on Bill Nye's politeness in putting his arguments and rebuttal.

    Ken Ham's organisation challenges the validity of evolution through his statement : how do you know, you weren't there. This implies that evidence is only available at a point in time. I feel that Bill Nye stuck to the debate format and did not attack Ken Ham's proposition of creationism. Instead he tried to provide reasoned argument.

    The point of politeness did not allow Bill to reverse the claim to Ken Ham and contend that Ken Ham and his followers were not present at his claimed time of creation. His evidence is in fact a book which was not written at the time. Ken Ham has never seen the original Hebrew documents from which the Christians have produced the book of Genesis.

    I noted with some irony that Bill Nye several times challenged Ken Ham on the basis that his creationism view does not allow for predictions. While it was strange that Ken did not refute this contention with the argument that Christians believe God will again visit the earth which is a paramount prediction in the new testament of the Christian bible. I believe Ken did not want to pursue this line because the follow up question would be : Exactly When will your God revisit the earth.

    I believe that Bill would have wanted to pursue some other thought provoking options on science but steadfastly kept to elements of science that were either currently proven or open to challenge. Accordingly he couldn't allow the debate to grow into crystal ball gazing on possibilities. My contention in this argument is that humans possess a narrow view of time and space. If we accept that time is a measurement of : well time as we know it, then time does not have a beginning, nor does it have an end. Similarly we cannot conceive of infinite space because we have this view of a round ball of our known galaxies.

    To me the question of viability relates to our human ability to reason. If in any other walk of life, someone proposed a concept as faith based as religion but with elements that caused you to question, then you would at least have doubt or refute the contention. While the essential tenets of Christianity are about 'goodness', opponents of this religious faith are castigated for holding questioning views or being atheists or agnostics or in fact not sufficiently zealous.

    Bill's arguments were in support of the logic of viability of evolution over creation, but I have heard it expressed differently, quite recently.

    While it is true that there are many religions with contradictory belief systems covering creation. All of these religions therefore cannot be true.
    However mathematics tells us that they can all be false.

    Ken Ham's issue is that he must maintain an unquestioning faith in his book of Genesis. To doubt any element, doubts all the elements.

    My problem with Ken's supporting arguments is that he uses the book of Genesis to demand that the events of the book of Genesis is correct.

    Interestingly enough Ken Ham graduated from the University of Queensland in my home city of Brisbane. I hold this institution in exceptionally high regard but I would suggest that Ken might have been better and earlier served in studying Theology rather than science.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    The following:
    Your line: "Ken Ham's issue is that he must maintain an unquestioning faith in his book of Genesis. To doubt any element, doubts all the elements."

    I just wonder; first of all when did humans learn to write?; I guess cavemen did not write but made cave drawings. Then, ever seen a talking snake; I wonder if the first people could talk at all, may be only grunt. Then the story of the apple tree; who talked to this Adam from outerspace and forbid him to eat healthy food. Very weird indeed. Since according to this nutty writing the world was created in seven days; how is it possible to have an apple tree grow that fast on a pile of lava. The lava takes years to cool so these people must have had stainless steel feet. Then the story of Kain and Able; no daughters in the picture; so they must have committed insest to continue the species. Anyway this Genesis whatever must have lived may be about 8000 years ago and certainly had no real records or a clue of millions of years ago when this planet was formed. Fantasy reigns.
  • Center Left Democrat
    Democrat
    Flagstaff, AZ
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    Ken Ham's Creation Museum was in the news again today, due to a story about a proposed budget in Kentucky.

    Since first taking office, Democratic Governor Steve Beshear has been forced to deal with some significant budget deficits. His most recently budget proposal includes $286 million in cuts, so austerity budgets are not exactly news in Kentucky.

    What's troubling about the new budget proposal is that it would include a 6.4% cut in higher eduction, and a whopping $50,000,000 from K-12 funding. At the same time, it also includes a $43,000,000 TAX BREAK for Ken Ham's "Ark Encounter" and an ADDITIONAL $11,000,000 for road improvements near the site.

    Budget cuts are an unfortunate part of life, but I'm of the opinion that it's far more important to maintain education funding than to financially support a religious institution.


    http://aattp.org/kentucky-gov-wants-taxpayers-to-foot-bill-for-creationism-museum-lane-expansion/



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Beshear
  • Center Left Democrat
    Democrat
    Flagstaff, AZ
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    If you're not familiar with Ken Ham's latest creation, here's more information:

    http://tohell-andback.blogspot.com/2013/04/noahs-ark-and-othe-rfairy-tales.html
  • Democrat
    Missouri
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    Arizona, I have to admit your finding on the draconian cuts in education for tax breaks for religious reason is way over-the-top. It is fanaticism at it's best of religious zealots capitalizing on funding their ornate displays of Biblical history. Although, I do not in anyway discount the accounting of Biblical scripture, I do find it irresponsible of politicians using their position and power to distract funding from education for their religious desires. Education is vastly important and a tool to use for corrupt agendas in holding back peoples intelligence, so that they can be misinformed. The outcome of holding back education is a dark and gray mind that has no ability to locate success. In some way, I totally disagree with zealots on both sides of the spectrum. I disagree with zealots who discount and obstruct religious beliefs, as if "They" have the "Right" answers to the world. I disagree with the religious zealots that hammer away at "There is only ONE WAY", toward a belief and life with God. I am one that promotes a medium of education and a strong belief in God. God does promote education, which is why He sent us His Words in scripture. So, if no one knows how to read, than how does one know right from wrong? How does one know how to become educated? God in His wisdom has brought us teachers in both religion, science, and living life that advocates humanity.

    An example are those ISIS recruits, who only believe genocide is their way. Apparently, no one has taught them humanity. Maybe that same politician has a relative that made draconian cuts in middle east education, so these people joining ISIS know only how to remove heads off people.
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    Hi Arizona: I have not seen the new creation museum, but I've heard a lot about it. Mostly that it is not "reality based" from science, but more keyed to teaching the Biblical version of history. Due to our economy tanking (mostly due to Republican budget cuts) I do not think the average citizen should have public Education ripped off, just so one religious sect can have a Disney fantasy-land, where they will sell tickets and "make money" off it, and then refuse to pay Taxes because "religion is tax exempt". What a scam. Walt Disney would be rolling in his grave.

    If they want to have a Biblical Theme Park, & charge admission, & then pay their fair share of taxes, I would be in favor of it, although they should clearly place some disclaimer on it, "that this park shows events that are not verified by modern science." We recommend that you consult your school Biology Text books, & other modern texts & Encyclopedias under "Evolution"--- & try to keep an open mind.
    I wonder if kids today could have this discussion, without people arguing & fighting, & hurling blunt objects at each other.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    AMC, please advise me on how this statement makes any sense:

    "God does promote education, which is why He sent us His Words in scripture. So, if no one knows how to read, than how does one know right from wrong? How does one know how to become educated? God in His wisdom has brought us teachers in both religion, science, and living life that advocates humanity."

    I've never seen, heard or are aware that any "god" ( 100's of them are created by people) has ever promoted education; pls prove such (not out of "bibles" written by "humans") God in His wisdom? wow, did you ever talk to "it" and checked if that "whatever" knows the word "wisdom", which is only used on this clump of dirt. by people
    People themselves invented speech, writing and words in all kind of languages; no "god" or anything from outerspace helped in that; it is called evolution. If you would have had some "worldly education" then you would know those things. People did not learn to talk for an awful long time; more like sign language in the early stages. Unless Adam was a frog like creature who could speak and write; like you believe.
    Pls. get some education ( they do not give that in church)
  • Democrat
    Missouri
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    Dutch, for you, I assume your right...........because apparently you profess "not" going to church. The debate with you on this subject appears unobtainable to get you to read the scriptures. I'll admit failing to bring you closer to God, but don't worry, you still have time. Maybe you'll get educated one way or another. God struck Paul blind on his way to Damascus, as the scripture indicates, so just maybe there is hope for you. It is a common belief in religious study that for some getting closer to God, means one must suffer and be broken in order for the Healing to take place.

    The debate over evolution and creation will continue to put people in a maze unable to reason for themselves and work toward the ultimate goal of getting closer to God and find truth in mankind. Between evolution and creation, one gives you nothing, but the other gives you a source of eternal life. A question that always fascinates me is why people facing imminent death become so afraid, while having a shallow belief and fellowship with God. Where people dying that have a strong faith will look forward toward eternal life knowing after death they are expected. I've seen the faces of those moments just prior to death and it is though they saw someone. Sometimes, people acknowledge those dying that they are speaking to someone. All of you with nonbelief and use your own knowledge to figure the mystery out of dying, you probably will not be surprised, because that is what you will see...........nothing. Some of you respond that those that are dying are seeing fizzle sparks in the mind, thus they are incoherent in what they see. That's just the fizzle thinking of nonbelievers.

    Both Theology and Science have their purpose and both can relate together. You cannot use science to defeat theology, just as we, who do not have all the answers cannot use theology to defeat science.


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    Hi AMCMurray: Thanks for your considerate reply to me on this topic. I loved the story of the woman archaeologist who carried the Bible on all her archaeological travels, as a reliable resource to locate & study ancient ruins & artifacts.

    Everyone has their own reasons for believing. I started church at age 4. So one could say I was brain-washed at an early age. But that is not the end of the story. Near age 21, I decided that "enlightened" grown-up people would start to doubt the fairy tales of religion & so I began looking at it all from a different skeptical point of view. And amazingly, against my expectation, I began to find out that science proved so many things in the Bible. that it would boggle the mind. Later on, 4 or 5 miracles happened in my life. Things that nobody could have possibly expected.

    And I began having "all my wishes come true" (for 3 yrs, every single thing I asked for came true, & there was no way to truly expect it). Some awesome miracles, I still have to pinch myself to make sure I am not dreaming. So after a whole lifetime of seeing the proofs of many religious promises, & knowing some wonderful people, I DO BELIEVE in the Power of Love, or "God" (which is from the same "root" as the word 'GOOD'). (Our brain is wired to see binary "opposites" -- but sometimes, we need to see all the shades of GRAY). And after you get better at that, you will finally be able to see the world in Technicolor, with Stereo sound, & 3-D perception, & High Definition. Then you will know REAL TRUTH.
  • Liberal
    Independent
    Durham, NH
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    EF, lock up your adult drinks cabinet, throw away the key and read this book http://www.amazon.com/Age-Atheists-Sought-Since-Death/dp/1476754314/ref=sr_1_1?... It might surprise you - too bad it wasn't written when you were 21 and God was still alive.
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  • Liberal
    Independent
    Durham, NH
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    I suggest they both (and all true believers) read up on Freud -

    http://psychology.about.com/od/sigmundfreud/p/freud_religion.htm

    He has lots of good insights that they could make good use of in their quest for everlasting happiness and life.
  • Liberal
    Independent
    Durham, NH
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    Don't worry! You won't go to Hell! http://www.alternet.org/belief/what-happens-christianity-when-people-stop-belie...k
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    pr Wrote: Don't worry! You won't go to Hell! http://www.alternet.org/belief/what-happens-christianity-when-people-stop-belie...k
    PGR, actually a poorly written piece; neither "hell" or "heaven" exists; "everything" including dead things stay on this globe; it is as simple as that. The only difference may be if an astronaut dies in space, then his remains will stay there. Nothing leaves a dead body; so "nothing" will stay "nothing" and can't go anywhere. I feel sorry for the believers that this "candy" is a total fake one. Let them ask any "doctor" or "scientist" if they have ever seen a so called "soul" leave a dead body; I guess you can't program "air" to contain all the brain data and personal info as well have a GPS steering to where to go, or has an energy sourse. Neither does "air" ; "soul" or "ghostly air" burn by itself or feel anything; it has no nerves or a brain who determines what the signal is; pain or something else. So what is the purpose of burning in "hell" if you don't feel pain because you no longer exist at all in any form whatsoever?
    So the answer is churches sell a lot of snake oil; to get power over the people.
  • Liberal
    Independent
    Durham, NH
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    It's sorta a joke Dutch - shows how dumb and easily mind controlled people are. I don't think the author believes in heaven or hell anymore than we do!