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Tesla's long range plan for "free fuel forever"

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  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Arizona covered this in part in the thread on solar, but I would like to highlight it more.

    Super Charger, the fastest charging station on the planet

    "Tesla Superchargers allow Model S owners to travel for free between cities along well-traveled highways in North America and Europe. Superchargers provide half a charge in as little as 20 minutes and are strategically placed to allow owners to drive from station to station with minimal stops.

    "Superchargers are located near amenities like roadside diners, cafes, and shopping centers. Road trippers can stop for a quick meal and have their Model S charged when they’re done."


    Look at the link and photo of a supercharging station. Today they have 73 supercharging station in North America and by 2015 expect to have 98 percent of the US population covered. And because the supercharging stations are powered by solar, all "fill-ups" are free to Tesla owners.

    Now I certainly appreciate that the cost of the Tesla will be out of the range of many car buyers. However, what has surprised me is how fast Tesla is adding supercharging stations not only in the USA and Canada, but also Europe where the high gasoline prices will make it even more attractive. And the supercharging sites are carefully chosen so as to let owners catch a bite to eat or do some shopping while the car undergoes the 20-30 minutes charge.

    For Tesla owners, it kind of changes the way they plan their travel. I can see it transition from a kind of hobby or novelty to a dependent form of transportation. And when fueling is free forever, well I can see many environmentalists buying it for the "bragging rights"...15,000 miles traveled in a year....coast to coast...fuel cost...ZERO!! Priceless!!

    The future is here...now.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Schmidt Wrote: Arizona covered this in part in the thread on solar, but I would like to highlight it more.

    Super Charger, the fastest charging station on the planet

    "Tesla Superchargers allow Model S owners to travel for free between cities along well-traveled highways in North America and Europe. Superchargers provide half a charge in as little as 20 minutes and are strategically placed to allow owners to drive from station to station with minimal stops.

    "Superchargers are located near amenities like roadside diners, cafes, and shopping centers. Road trippers can stop for a quick meal and have their Model S charged when they’re done."


    Look at the link and photo of a supercharging station. Today they have 73 supercharging station in North America and by 2015 expect to have 98 percent of the US population covered. And because the supercharging stations are powered by solar, all "fill-ups" are free to Tesla owners.

    Now I certainly appreciate that the cost of the Tesla will be out of the range of many car buyers. However, what has surprised me is how fast Tesla is adding supercharging stations not only in the USA and Canada, but also Europe where the high gasoline prices will make it even more attractive. And the supercharging sites are carefully chosen so as to let owners catch a bite to eat or do some shopping while the car undergoes the 20-30 minutes charge.

    For Tesla owners, it kind of changes the way they plan their travel. I can see it transition from a kind of hobby or novelty to a dependent form of transportation. And when fueling is free forever, well I can see many environmentalists buying it for the "bragging rights"...15,000 miles traveled in a year....coast to coast...fuel cost...ZERO!! Priceless!!

    The future is here...now.
    Sorry to say; nothing is for free in this country! Wherever they place these stations, the person who owns the property does not want such a charging station if he can't profit from it, so in my opinion there will always be a fee of some kind. The other thing is with the Tesla none of them are 10 years old yet; that will determine if they (the batteries) stand up over time; my experience with rechargeables is that after a while they will no longer take a charge or deplete quicker after a charge. Personaly I prefer like Porsche did with the 918 to have a hybrid which does charge the batteries while you drive; so overall you use less fuel. Also the purchase cost of a Tesla is over 60K, so not for everyone, I guess.
  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    With options a Tesla can easily creep up towards 100k. I think this recharging station thing is very interesting. Huge benefit is reducing our dependence on fossil fuels and cleaning up our air.
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    While it's true that the purchase price is high, the fuel costs will indeed be near zero for the customer. I expect that as the batteries wear out, that there will be some program to replace and recycle much the same as there is now for gasoline powered cars and parts. Warranties on gasoline powered cars are only good for three years and 36,000 miles. Tesla can certainly compete in that arena.

    This is the car for the future, and the more that are made and used, the more the technology will improve and costs will go down...much the same as the costs of solar panels have dropped.

    I expect that it will initially serve as a second or third car for those that can afford it...probably a car to commute back and forth to work or get groceries or shopping trips.

    The recharging stations located near a store, mall or fast food restaurant are a win-win-win. Having a captive customer for the 20-30 minutes of charging is a win for the store/restaurant. I've read where gas stations make most of their profit from selling stuff in their mini-marts so Tesla would fit right in...20-30 minutes of shopping. Maybe a video arcade as well. The supercharging stations are expected to generate more electricity from solar panels than they can use, so that could be shared or sold.

    Then there is this:

    Tesla Motors Opens Assembly Plant in Tilburg, Netherlands

    "Being centrally located in Tilburg enables efficient, timely and cost effective operations throughout Europe. Parts can be distributed to anywhere across the continent within 12 hours. Tilburg is an ideal location considering its proximity to the port of Rotterdam and the high quality and availability of transportation infrastructure. An excellent rail and motorway network connects Tilburg to all major markets."

    With the Dutch getting on board in a big way, then we know it's going to be a big European winner. This is big for Europe and the Dutch will be leading the way!
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Schmidt Wrote: While it's true that the purchase price is high, the fuel costs will indeed be near zero for the customer. I expect that as the batteries wear out, that there will be some program to replace and recycle much the same as there is now for gasoline powered cars and parts. Warranties on gasoline powered cars are only good for three years and 36,000 miles. Tesla can certainly compete in that arena.

    This is the car for the future, and the more that are made and used, the more the technology will improve and costs will go down...much the same as the costs of solar panels have dropped.

    I expect that it will initially serve as a second or third car for those that can afford it...probably a car to commute back and forth to work or get groceries or shopping trips.

    The recharging stations located near a store, mall or fast food restaurant are a win-win-win. Having a captive customer for the 20-30 minutes of charging is a win for the store/restaurant. I've read where gas stations make most of their profit from selling stuff in their mini-marts so Tesla would fit right in...20-30 minutes of shopping. Maybe a video arcade as well. The supercharging stations are expected to generate more electricity from solar panels than they can use, so that could be shared or sold.

    Then there is this:

    Tesla Motors Opens Assembly Plant in Tilburg, Netherlands

    "Being centrally located in Tilburg enables efficient, timely and cost effective operations throughout Europe. Parts can be distributed to anywhere across the continent within 12 hours. Tilburg is an ideal location considering its proximity to the port of Rotterdam and the high quality and availability of transportation infrastructure. An excellent rail and motorway network connects Tilburg to all major markets."

    With the Dutch getting on board in a big way, then we know it's going to be a big European winner. This is big for Europe and the Dutch will be leading the way!
    Not to get away from the subject; the statement " An excellent rail and motorway network.... etc. is the statement I made made times about the US.
    Why we have few industries in FL? Because of lack of infrastructure; they rather spent it here on the military!!
    However I like to add again; I like the Porsche concept much better.
  • Independent
    Widefield, CO
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    Dutch, you might want to look at how the government works and how taxes are spent. You can't simply divert money for the military to other things. Also the 'free fill-ups' don't answer one MAJOR problem... How will we pay for road repair and construction? Tax money from fueling your car (be it with gasoline, ethanol, whatever) is taxed and that money goes to paying to fix the roads we all drive on. Eliminate that tax and you have a major problem with roads. Also, last time I checked (about 4 years ago while I was taking classes in alternative energy) solar energy still isn't that efficient. I will admit I think its a great idea, but there are many problems with saying that they expect to have 98% of the US covered by 2015. First and foremost, less sun = less power, meaning that on cloudy days and in the winter you won't be able to drive as much. Also, for those that live in states that get a lot of frost, this means daily scraping frost off your car windows and solar panels, since to maximize the amount of sun you get you wouldn't want to park your car in a garage. As of right now, on half charge, I believe you can get maybe 60 miles... Know any good landmarks you want to visit within an hour drive of your home? Also, 20-30 minute charge would be more like 1/4 to 1/8 charge at current technology, not 1/2.

    As I said, they have a great idea, but for right now their ideas are far outstripping the science they need to make it real. I'd love to see solar cars (if we could find a way to maintain roads without raising taxes on other things to pay for them), but I don't see it truly happening before 2020 at the very least.

    RanmaMOJ

  • Other Party
    Nebraska
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    FREE FUEL FOREVER!

    TOO CHEAP TO METER!

    Both sound great, huh? Too cheap to meter was the phrase that was uttered in in a speech in 1954 by the Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission. Electricity from nuke reactors was going to be so cheap that "OUR CHILDREN WILL ENJOY IN THEIR HOMES ELECTRICAL ENERGY TOO CHEAP TO METER".

    And how's that working out for ya?

    There's always somebody try to sell us something that's too good to be true. Google "Too cheap to meter"

    Dutch is right ..."nothing is for free in this country!"...
  • Other Party
    Nebraska
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    And another thing...

    Look that the map in 2015 when there are all those "free" charging stations all over the USA. Assuming that they do happen, they are concentrated in the heavily populated areas but there's still a whole bunch of people who live more than 100, 200 and maybe more miles from these free stations. Even for a "free" charge, how many people will drive one, two, or even three hours to a charging station, get their free fillup, then drive one, two, or even three hours back to the house? Not many.

    When there's a "free" charging station in every little town like gasoline stations are now...THEN maybe we've got a plan.

    I can see the headlines now: Man shot and killed at the free charging station because he didn't show up to move his car quickly enough to suit other customers who were waiting for their free fill up. Far fetched? I don't think so.

    Ranmam makes a decent point about the taxes on fuel being reduced as everyone gets "free fuel forever". Uncle Sam doesn't like less taxes. He'll figure a way to make that up.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    jamesn Wrote: And another thing...

    Look that the map in 2015 when there are all those "free" charging stations all over the USA. Assuming that they do happen, they are concentrated in the heavily populated areas but there's still a whole bunch of people who live more than 100, 200 and maybe more miles from these free stations. Even for a "free" charge, how many people will drive one, two, or even three hours to a charging station, get their free fillup, then drive one, two, or even three hours back to the house? Not many.

    When there's a "free" charging station in every little town like gasoline stations are now...THEN maybe we've got a plan.

    I can see the headlines now: Man shot and killed at the free charging station because he didn't show up to move his car quickly enough to suit other customers who were waiting for their free fill up. Far fetched? I don't think so.

    Ranmam makes a decent point about the taxes on fuel being reduced as everyone gets "free fuel forever". Uncle Sam doesn't like less taxes. He'll figure a way to make that up.
    Yes I agree; especially here in FL when the snowbirds arrive in their Tesla's, there will be huge fights at the "filling" stations, because they want to be at the beach and not the whole day in line, like the voting system here. But may be I can start a filling station at my house and charge $50- for a fill up !!
    Absolutely it is true the government will find ways to cover any shortfall in taxes; like they do in the Netherlands the Value Added Tax (VAT) was in 2013; 19% and is likely to be increased to 21%; this is added on everything you buy, also the car!!
  • Center Left Democrat
    Democrat
    Flagstaff, AZ
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    I agree with all of the comments made so far on this thread about the Tesla ... although the current model is out of my price range if I were in the market to buy a car, the good news is that Tesla DOES have plans to make a more affordable version, which should lead to a heft increase in their sales

    car sales in general have been increasing the last few years due to pent up demand (the average car in America is now 11 years old), and that pent up demand will provide a huge boost to a lower priced Tesla model ...

    Opening up a production plant in the Netherlands is a stroke of genius, since gasoline prices in Europe are a lot higher than here, and the Netherlands has the highest prices of all:

    http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/

    If your neighbor who watches FOX News all the time complains about gasoline prices, have him look at the countries where gasoline is the cheapest. It's not likely that any of us would want to live there.

    The biggest issue that needs to be dealt with on this topic is gasoline taxes. State taxes vary from state to state, but California has the highest taxes at 53.5 cents a gallon. The Federal gasoline tax is 18.4 cents a gallon, but has not been increased since 1993.

    60% of the Federal tax goes towards highway and bridge construction. The Federal Highway administration estimates that there are at least 8000 bridges in America that are "structural deficient", and it would cost $20.5 billion a year to upgrade them all.

    http://articles.latimes.com/2013/sep/03/nation/la-na-aging-bridges-20130904

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States

    The clip below shows why it's critical to increase funding for road and bridge construction and repair:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP0nLYmAIj0

    Some states have proposed a special tax on electric vehicles (and the Nissan Leaf is just one example of some Tesla alternatives) but rising fuel economy has also put a crimp on how much gasoline tax is collected. As a result, some alternatives have been proposed, and one of those alternatives involves eliminating the gas tax altogether:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/15/us/looking-for-new-ways-to-pay-for-roads-and-bridges.html
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    that guy in Arizona Wrote: I agree with all of the comments made so far on this thread about the Tesla ... although the current model is out of my price range if I were in the market to buy a car, the good news is that Tesla DOES have plans to make a more affordable version, which should lead to a heft increase in their sales

    car sales in general have been increasing the last few years due to pent up demand (the average car in America is now 11 years old), and that pent up demand will provide a huge boost to a lower priced Tesla model ...

    Opening up a production plant in the Netherlands is a stroke of genius, since gasoline prices in Europe are a lot higher than here, and the Netherlands has the highest prices of all:

    http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/

    If your neighbor who watches FOX News all the time complains about gasoline prices, have him look at the countries where gasoline is the cheapest. It's not likely that any of us would want to live there.

    The biggest issue that needs to be dealt with on this topic is gasoline taxes. State taxes vary from state to state, but California has the highest taxes at 53.5 cents a gallon. The Federal gasoline tax is 18.4 cents a gallon, but has not been increased since 1993.

    60% of the Federal tax goes towards highway and bridge construction. The Federal Highway administration estimates that there are at least 8000 bridges in America that are "structural deficient", and it would cost $20.5 billion a year to upgrade them all.

    http://articles.latimes.com/2013/sep/03/nation/la-na-aging-bridges-20130904

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States

    The clip below shows why it's critical to increase funding for road and bridge construction and repair:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP0nLYmAIj0

    Some states have proposed a special tax on electric vehicles (and the Nissan Leaf is just one example of some Tesla alternatives) but rising fuel economy has also put a crimp on how much gasoline tax is collected. As a result, some alternatives have been proposed, and one of those alternatives involves eliminating the gas tax altogether:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/15/us/looking-for-new-ways-to-pay-for-roads-and-bridges.html
    Your line of the gasoline prices in the Netherlands etc. is correct. However I see a problem with the filling stations; the sun never shines there ; always raining; the alternative is to get wind power stations; which are certainly not a free-bee. So if something like that sells there I doubt; natural gas for transportation makes more sense there, since natural gas is found there.
  • Center Left Democrat
    Democrat
    Flagstaff, AZ
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    Dutch:



    "Put it where the sun doesn't shine" is an unfortunate vulgarity that seems to apply to the Dutch charging stations.

    I lived in Guangzhou, China for a year (as an English teacher) and recently discovered that the city has taken some innovative steps on public transportation:

    The Guangzhou Bus Rapid Transit (or GBRT) system which was introduced in 2010, is the world's second largest Bus Rapid Transit system with 1,000,000 [38] passenger trips daily and 26,900 pphpd during the peak hour (second only to the TransMilenio BRT system in Bogota).[39] The system averages 1 bus every 10 seconds or 350 per hour in a single direction contains the world's longest BRT stations - around 260m including bridges.

    In 2009, is was reported that all 9,424 buses and 17,695 taxis in Guangzhou would be operating on LPG-fueled by 2010 to promote clean energy for transport and improve the environment ahead of the 2010 Asian Games which were held in the city.[40] At present, Guangzhou is the city that uses the most LPG-fueled vehicles in the world, and at the end of 2006, 6,500 buses and 16,000 taxis were using LPG, taking up 85% of all buses and taxis.[citation needed]

    Effective January 1, 2007, the municipal government has banned motorcycles in urban areas. Motorcycles found violating the ban will be confiscated.[41] The Guangzhou traffic bureau claimed to have reported reduced traffic problems and accidents in the downtown area since the ban.[42]


    You may also be interested to know that the all-electric Nissan Leaf is now produced in China, but under a different name. the "Morning Wind":

    http://www.chinacartimes.com/2013/11/nissan-leaf-venucia-morning-wind-china/


    Incidentally, if you get nostalgic about the Netherlands from time to time, you may want to read the article below, which I published in both English and Dutch (using Google translate):


    http://tohell-andback.blogspot.com/2011/11/your-dutch-uncle-in-dutch.html
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    that guy in Arizona Wrote: Dutch:



    "Put it where the sun doesn't shine" is an unfortunate vulgarity that seems to apply to the Dutch charging stations.

    I lived in Guangzhou, China for a year (as an English teacher) and recently discovered that the city has taken some innovative steps on public transportation:

    The Guangzhou Bus Rapid Transit (or GBRT) system which was introduced in 2010, is the world's second largest Bus Rapid Transit system with 1,000,000 [38] passenger trips daily and 26,900 pphpd during the peak hour (second only to the TransMilenio BRT system in Bogota).[39] The system averages 1 bus every 10 seconds or 350 per hour in a single direction contains the world's longest BRT stations - around 260m including bridges.

    In 2009, is was reported that all 9,424 buses and 17,695 taxis in Guangzhou would be operating on LPG-fueled by 2010 to promote clean energy for transport and improve the environment ahead of the 2010 Asian Games which were held in the city.[40] At present, Guangzhou is the city that uses the most LPG-fueled vehicles in the world, and at the end of 2006, 6,500 buses and 16,000 taxis were using LPG, taking up 85% of all buses and taxis.[citation needed]

    Effective January 1, 2007, the municipal government has banned motorcycles in urban areas. Motorcycles found violating the ban will be confiscated.[41] The Guangzhou traffic bureau claimed to have reported reduced traffic problems and accidents in the downtown area since the ban.[42]


    You may also be interested to know that the all-electric Nissan Leaf is now produced in China, but under a different name. the "Morning Wind":

    http://www.chinacartimes.com/2013/11/nissan-leaf-venucia-morning-wind-china/


    Incidentally, if you get nostalgic about the Netherlands from time to time, you may want to read the article below, which I published in both English and Dutch (using Google translate):


    http://tohell-andback.blogspot.com/2011/11/your-dutch-uncle-in-dutch.html
    Thanks Guy; yes the religeous Dutch (zwarte kousenkerk) emigrated to the US; at present there is only a very small group of fanatics left; this group gets smaller by the year, also because of influx of more immigrants and less churches, but more Muslim influence ( Maroccans, Turks, Syrians)
  • Other Party
    Nebraska
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    Tesla CEO was on one of the broadcast network morning shows today. Don't remember which network but he said 3rd generation car should be out in about 3 more years and it will be about half the price of current Tesla cars.

    Current cars go for 60-100K, (I think) and so if the new one will go for 30-50K, that will put a LOT more people in the market for their product. And I don't know if it will be compatible with the new "free" charging stations.

    I only saw part of the interview this morning, and I think it was on ABC or CBS but I googled and didn't find it.

    If I lived in California, maybe I'd consider buying one when they hit the market, but since Californians can't hardly ever flush their toilets, I don"t think I'll be going back there to live anytime soon.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    jamesn Wrote: Tesla CEO was on one of the broadcast network morning shows today. Don't remember which network but he said 3rd generation car should be out in about 3 more years and it will be about half the price of current Tesla cars.

    Current cars go for 60-100K, (I think) and so if the new one will go for 30-50K, that will put a LOT more people in the market for their product. And I don't know if it will be compatible with the new "free" charging stations.

    I only saw part of the interview this morning, and I think it was on ABC or CBS but I googled and didn't find it.

    If I lived in California, maybe I'd consider buying one when they hit the market, but since Californians can't hardly ever flush their toilets, I don"t think I'll be going back there to live anytime soon.
    May be they should have a built in toilet in the Tesla; it flushes for free via solar power or you can install a rain collector for driving out of state.
    However I still think regardless of a cheaper model, that plenty of people hate to recharge for half an hour or more; pumping gas takes 10 minutes.
    Also depending on where the recharging stations are located; you may have to detour or go somewhere where you do not want to go in the first place etc. Also "electrical" circuits and controls have a tendency to fail because of corrosion, moisture, overheating etc. Probably you need an expensive tester to check for faults. Like with natural gas you can drive quite a distance before refilling which takes as long as with gasoline. I would prefer that.