Post 08-29-2014, 01:17 PM
jaredsxtn
Democrat
Portland, OR
Posts: 2592
Thread: Nine year old girls accidently kills instructor at shooting range

Zach F Wrote: While there maybe be some people that horde supplies preparing for some upcoming apocalypse, they are hardly a representative population of gun owners or gun advocates.

Consider this. I would defend Net Neutrality just as fervently as many gun owners defend the legality of gun ownership. While I may talk about Net Neutrality to excess it's that that "I love Net Neutrality and nothing else." I just feel that we can have rational talk about gun control without demonizing and grouping the entire other side as "gun nuts" with little rationale to contribute to the discussion.

As someone who was raised with guns and my father, and his father were responsible gun owners, I know from experience that not only is there safe and responsible manner to own guns, there is a safe and responsible way to teach that to children. I also don't think that gun ownership should be right. It should be a privilege, like having a driver's license. If you can't responsibly own a gun, then you don't get to have one.
I definitely agree. I am not someone who says there is no such thing as a responsible gun owner. There are millions of responsible gun owners in this country who love to hunt and shoot for sport that never once have an issue.

As much as I agree with you regarding it being a a privilege and not a right, the Supreme Court poured cold water on that in McDonald v. Chicago. The decision basically neutered any and all gun control laws throughout the states and greatly expanded the interpretation of the Second Amendment. Now it is nearly impossible to pass any gun legislation that wouldn't violate that ruling.
Post 08-28-2014, 06:56 PM
jaredsxtn
Democrat
Portland, OR
Posts: 2592
Thread: Nine year old girls accidently kills instructor at shooting range

Zach F Wrote: Do you really think there are actually people who "love guns and nothing else?" That seems needlessly hyperbolic.
I know it sounds needlessly hyperbolic, but I would venture to say that there are a decent chunk of Americans who love their God, guns, and nothing else. We are a country that is inundated with needless guns. There are 300 million Americans in this country, yet there are over 310 million guns flooding our streets. We have television shows about people stockpiling weapons, food, etc. for a pending doomsday. We have a plethora of websites talking about the 'must have guns' for when the world falls apart. I'm not suggesting it is even remotely close to the majority, but I would say there are plenty of people in this country who 'love guns and nothing else.'
Post 08-28-2014, 05:12 PM
jaredsxtn
Democrat
Portland, OR
Posts: 2592
Thread: Civil unrest in Ferguson Missouri

Tony Johnson Wrote: On the topic....... I was watching the show Last week tonight with John Oliver (HBO) and while ridiculing the Ferguson Police department..... He showed the following facts: The REID Report MSNBC.com

2013 RACIAL PROFILING DATA
BLACK POPULATION IN FERGUSON 63%
86% OF POLICE STOPS ----------- +23%
92% OF POLICE SEARCHES --------- +29%
NEARLY 93% OF ARRESTS ---------- +30%

SOURCE: MISSOURI ATTORNEY GENERAL OFFICE
I smell racism and boy does it stink. Especially when it concludes in death. The racists won't see it that way but they're comfortable in their skin.
If somebody has the ability to post the John Oliver clip, it was very funny. Especially the explanation of the demographics of the police force.
I agree and this is a trend we see nationwide. People of color are constantly underrepresented in police departments not just in Ferguson, MO, but throughout this country. This is a problem we have to address and address now. It is unacceptable that a town that is nearly 2/3 black has two or three black police officers. It's also unacceptable that these citizens have to put up with the blatantly racist behavior of the police who are supposed to be protecting them. Instead of protecting and serving, these police seem to be terrorizing the people they are sworn to protect.
Post 08-28-2014, 05:09 PM
jaredsxtn
Democrat
Portland, OR
Posts: 2592
Thread: Civil unrest in Ferguson Missouri

johnnycee Wrote: What challenge, that the DOJ does not keep statistical crime data, it's not to complicated to find, just Google it, you will find that not does it keep crime data but that they have an entire sub agency, employing hundreds if not thousands of workers for compiling that particular date to crime committed, trends in crime etc., gleaned from all agencies, so it does exist and because you can't/won/t look for it is not my problem. and another poster is right this debate will just go on in circles , why not let the Justice System do its due process and when all is said and done , lets see what changes will be brought forth.
You are wrong once again, but when has that ever stopped you from insisting otherwise? The DOJ does not keep statistics on police shootings. Let me repeat this again for added clarity--the DOJ does not keep statistics on police shootings.

The DOJ does conduct something called the National Crime Victimization Survey. This survey questions 90,000 households nationwide about reported and unreported crime throughout the country. That is hardly an accurate database, even though you so eloquently insist it is, because there are 300 million people in this country.

So contrary to what you keep saying, the DOJ does not keep 'statistical crime data.' They conduct a survey. You do understand that these are two entirely different things, right?
Post 08-28-2014, 11:49 AM
jaredsxtn
Democrat
Portland, OR
Posts: 2592
Thread: Civil unrest in Ferguson Missouri

johnnycee Wrote: so I got the state wrong, big deal, the facts remain the same, unarmed white teen shot by the police one of whom was non-white, big non-story right, but that seems okay with you because more blacks are killed in the same way so that make it fair and besides it makes the news, I didn't know the killing of unarmed teens whether they are white ,black, Hispanic, or other is okay as long as it's proportionate to the population, your true colors are really starting to show.
My true colors about refusing to accept that it's alright for our police departments nationwide to treat black people like the enemy in this country? Well, then I guess my true colors are showing because I find it unacceptable that our police have pretty much declared war on the people they are sworn to protect.

Just because I don't engage in false equivalence logical fallacy arguments doesn't mean I feel it's a shame an unarmed white teenager was shot and killed by a nonwhite police officer in Utah. If the officers acted in negligence then they should be arrested and tried. However, this thread is about Michael Brown and the overreaction of the police. I encourage you to start a separate thread if you want to discuss the terrible plight of the white man at the hands of nonwhite officers.

johnnycee Wrote:
You also seem to rely on the FBI numbers although you admit that they are incomplete because police depts. don't report the real numbers to the FBI, so you assume that they must be higher, why not assume lower, if the local police report a large reduction in homicide crimes due in part to a local program they then may be qualified to receive a Federal Grant $$$ to continue the program, so then you acknowledge that you use somewhat bogus stats to bolster your argument.
You do understand how numbers work, right? It would be literally impossible for the numbers to be lower if every department had to report the number of police homicides. It could technically stay the same if the only police homicides happened in the cities that self reported and zero happened in the 90 plus other percent of departments that didn't. If only a fraction of police departments currently report a tangible number, how would you suggest that tangible number would decrease if every police department had to report them? Your argument makes absolutely no sense here.

With regards to my 'relying' on the FBI numbers-- The FBI is the only one who keeps a database on police homicides, as flawed as it is. I've already informed you of this when I challenged you to provide a link to the supposed Justice Department database that you say contradicted these numbers. You never answered that challenge, probably because the Justice Department database that you used as a 'source' doesn't exist.
Post 08-28-2014, 03:01 AM
jaredsxtn
Democrat
Portland, OR
Posts: 2592
Thread: Civil unrest in Ferguson Missouri

johnnycee Wrote: I have not justified the shooting because of some stolen cigars, by earlier accounts the officer did not know about the robbery committed by Mr. Brown and his friend just minutes earlier, so the shooting could not be related to the robbery.
Here is what you wrote only days ago...

johnnycee Wrote: 08-15-2014, 01:01 PM

There is now a store security video being circulated showing both Mr. Brown and his colleague strong arming and assaulting an elderly woman at the store while stealing cigar earlier in the same day, the two were stopped because they fit the flash report of the description of the robbers. It appears that this not so Gentle Giant was quite capable of being violent and probably was a thug.
So what were you suggesting when you said this? You seem to be directly contradicting yourself.

johnnycee Wrote: are you aware of the incident in Colo. this past week , two white kids on two different occasions were shot and killed by non-white officers, BTW, those kids were also unarmed. Someone's bias is showing and it's not mine.
I would be happy to engage in an educated discussion with you if you ever want to have a one about the actual statistics. I also encourage you to get your states right before you start throwing this nonsense out. This supposedly happened in Utah, not Colorado. He was also shot by two officers, one of which was 'non-white.' Once again--I encourage you to actually read up on things before you try to suggest there is an equal number of black kids being shot by white cops versus white kids being shot by 'non-white' cops. A white police officer murders an unarmed black citizen twice a week in this country. This number is actually skewed because it's only the number of murders that police departments willingly provide to the FBI. The actual numbers are undoubtedly far higher. Keep telling yourself that things are equal though. I encourage you to say whatever you have to say to sleep better at night...
Post 08-28-2014, 01:06 AM
jaredsxtn
Democrat
Portland, OR
Posts: 2592
Thread: Nine year old girls accidently kills instructor at shooting range

johnnycee Wrote: Again you leave off my complete statement , the NRA backed the background checks if they included mental Health checks.
Here's the thing--there's this wonderful ideal called doctor-patient confidentiality. It is illegal for a doctor to do what you and the NRA are suggesting they should do. So you and the NRA are backing a concept that is illegal and impossible to enforce. Have you ever read up on the law before forming an opinion or do you just think what the NRA tells you to think?


Post 08-27-2014, 11:16 PM
jaredsxtn
Democrat
Portland, OR
Posts: 2592
Thread: Civil unrest in Ferguson Missouri

johnnycee Wrote: The police chief saw and reported the injury the night of the incident the officer was hospitalized with facial injuries, the severity is up to conjecture not the injury,
Here's the problem--this police department has a major history of racism and to automatically believe everything they say only shows that you are biased when it comes to accepting anything that comes out of a police officers mouth. Many people have serious questions as to whether the officer was hurt at all and if he intentionally injured himself to 'prove' he was justified to use deadly force against an unarmed black teenager. You're the same person who justified this murder because Michael Brown allegedly stole a cigar. I seriously doubt that you are someone who can objectively discuss this terribly tragedy.

johnnycee Wrote: E veryone ,including Capt. Johnson knew the unrest was spurred on by outsiders and thugs.
Thug is a code name for black people. I encourage you to actually read up on the number of unarmed black people who are stopped, searched, and murdered by police before you continue to throw this nonsense out. I'm so tired of this crap. If white people were randomly stopped, harassed, and murdered by black police this much then we would have a mutiny in this country.
Post 08-27-2014, 10:58 PM
jaredsxtn
Democrat
Portland, OR
Posts: 2592
Thread: Nine year old girls accidently kills instructor at shooting range

johnnycee Wrote: So PGR, you would advocate dissolving the Second Amendment as it pertains to civilians, demilitarize ?
Pro gun activists have a very elementary way of reading the second amendment, which reads "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

I'm loathe to ever claim to understand exactly what our founders were envisioning, but what ever happened to reading the first part of this amendment? We used to have militias in this country because we didn't have a standing army. Since we didn't have a standing army then our founders wanted to make sure that 'the people' were able to protect themselves if they needed to. This ideal has now morphed into every wing nut in this country thinking that an 8 year old should be able to own a semi-automatic weapon because it's their God given right to.

And why don't we hold every other amendment as sacrosanct as we do the second? Why is the first amendment, which guarantees that our government can't get involved in religion, not being enforced? What about the fourth amendment guarantee that prevents our government from spying on its own citizens? The list can go on and on. Why is this singular amendment so important to you while you seem to so easily write off every other one?
Post 08-27-2014, 10:50 PM
jaredsxtn
Democrat
Portland, OR
Posts: 2592
Thread: Nine year old girls accidently kills instructor at shooting range

johnnycee Wrote: Some believe that common sense gun legislation is a total ban, the NRA, which I am a member , has always supported back ground checks
This is not even close to being truthful. The NRA lobbied heavily against background checks after the horrific slaughter in Newtown. The NRA released a statement on 01/24/13 saying that the "NRA does NOT support universal background checks and is not working with Manchin to implement this type of legislation. NRA opposes, and will continue to oppose, universal background checks and registration schemes." I encourage you to fact check things before insisting they are true. It's quite easy to debunk this nonsense with actual facts.
Post 08-27-2014, 07:22 PM
jaredsxtn
Democrat
Portland, OR
Posts: 2592
Thread: Civil unrest in Ferguson Missouri

johnnycee Wrote: as for the arrest, you try to attempt to make light of the fact that by striking a police officer Mr. Brown was now subject to an arrest, unfortunitely he was killed before the arrest was effective, so in fact there was no arrest
This is pure conjecture. You have zero idea if he struck the police officer or not. There are plenty of eye witness accounts saying the exact opposite of this. Add that to the fact that there is a long history of police officers faking injuries when they use deadly force to 'justify' their actions and the detailed history of racial profiling and discrimination conducted by the Ferguson Police Department and you can understand why the vast majority of citizens in that city, and the country at large, take what this officer says with a big grain of salt.
Post 08-26-2014, 05:50 PM
jaredsxtn
Democrat
Portland, OR
Posts: 2592
Thread: What should be done about American journalist James Foley and ISIS?

johnnycee Wrote: Just received a news alert that US aircraft have struck targets inside Libya without the permission of Libyan officials, and now it begins!.
It was Egypt and the United Arab Emirates who did the airstrikes yesterday. American military officials say they were not informed of the two countries plans to bomb Libya.

Arab Nations Strike in Libya, Surprising US
Post 08-26-2014, 05:05 PM
jaredsxtn
Democrat
Portland, OR
Posts: 2592
Thread: Civil unrest in Ferguson Missouri

johnnycee Wrote: yet the Russians were the biggest socialist government going on at the time, the U.S.S. R.,
They were not socialists, they were communists. These are two entirely different philosophies. Just because they had 'socialist' in their name doesn't mean they ran their government as a socialist state. Anyone who has an elementary understanding of the Soviet Republic and communism in general would know that.

This is a discussion that can go on another thread. Let's actually get back to the discussion this thread is about, which is the gunning down of an unarmed black teenager in Missouri and the civil unrest that followed.
Post 08-26-2014, 01:13 PM
jaredsxtn
Democrat
Portland, OR
Posts: 2592
Thread: Major Earthquake Rocks Napa Valley, Injuring Dozens

While San Francisco was spared major damage, Napa Valley was not nearly as lucky. Many wineries have lost some of their best wines, which is something that no insurance check will be able to pay for.
Post 08-25-2014, 08:48 PM
jaredsxtn
Democrat
Portland, OR
Posts: 2592
Thread: Former Governor Bob McDonnell Charged With Corruption

I'm having a hard time believing that this case is garnering such little attention. I think that's for a variety of reasons, but mainly because it's a complex case that confuses the average person. The media also doesn't tend to care much about former politicians on trial for committing felonies, so that may be another reason why it's not being talked about much by the national media.

That's an interesting viewpoint on the email. It's a theory that could gain some traction if McDonnell were an average person, but rich people get to do their taxes at their own pace. That's because they know they can file a Form 4868. This form gives you the ability to file your taxes up to six months past the time they are due. Anyone can fill this form out, but the Federal Government or media doesn't seem to think it's important to inform the average American about it.

This soap opera has been quite interesting to watch. It's always interesting watching a former chief executive of a state who has been caught committing criminal acts do verbal jiu jitsu as they try to convince a jury that the only thing they were doing was business as usual. Let's just hope this jury is smarter than that.
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