Forum Thread

Privacy vs National Security, where is the line?

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  • Center Left
    Independent
    Denton, TX
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    Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.” - Benjamin Franklin

    I honestly couldn't agree more. But, maybe that's an extreme viewpoint, in this day and age. For this argument's sake, let's call that quote by one of our Founding Fathers the extreme viewpoint FOR privacy and AGAINST a police state.

    And now, for what I would call the extreme viewpoint FOR national security while at the same time being directly AGAINST privacy...

    Here is an exert from the recently televised hearing with the House Intelligence Committee on NSA surveillance. Republican Congressman Mike Rogers was interrogating American University College of Law professor Stephen Vladeck. This is the back and forth to highlight:

    "Maybe the fact that we haven't had any complaints come forward with any specificity arguing that their privacy has been violated clearly indicates, in ten years that somebody must be doing something exactly right." Mike Rogers offers up to the law professor.

    Vladeck rightly asks in return, "But who would be complaining?" And that's when Rogers dropped this piece of knowledge. "Somebody whose privacy was violated. You can't have your privacy violated if you don't know your privacy is violated, right?"

    You can't have your privacy violated if you don't know your privacy is violated, right? Right?!? Are you kidding me? This is the honest opinion of the chairman of the House INTELLIGENCE Committee! Say what you want about your personal feelings of where you fall in the extremes of this particular topic. But, are you serious? Does anyone here agree with this statement in any way? If so, can you please explain to me in detail how this is actually true?

    Thoughts? Where should our personal privacy rightly end (in your opinion) and the government's national security reach into our personal information rightly begin? My opinion, we need to repeal the Patriot Act and the many other pieces of legislation that have tipped the scales into the wrong direction...



    Here's the video of the back and forth between Mike Rogers and Stephen Vladeck:

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    The thing is, it is done with your own tax money!! Furthermore in my opinion this will go further than "looking for terrorists",for instance your bankaccount and art collection. This data again may fall in the wrong hands, who indeed then rob you blind.
    Anyway, I do not see a solution, because they started on this path and can't reverse this technology. The only result will be that people will become scared of their own shadow; so the best job to have is being a phycologist.
  • Democrat
    Philadelphia, PA
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    So, according to Republican Rep. Mike Rodgers if your not caught doing something illegal then it didn't happen, and this is a quote from a lawmaker.
  • Democrat
    Missouri
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    Dutch is so right, "I do not see a solution, because they started on this path and can't reverse this technology. The only result will be that people will become scared of their own shadow". America as well as the world is on a path of spying on all of us (world). It is the nature of the beast to capture this intelligence on everyone and everything. However, it is the use of this intelligence as the biggest problem.

    Does my purchasing information need to be shared with anybody outside of law enforcement? Does my credit information need to be shared with anybody outside of my present lender? Does my friendships and casual meetings need to be shared with anybody outside of law enforcement? Having to keep all our data within the confines of law authority is more likely reasons why people are searched and data maintained. However, there is mounting evidence that our data is shared with unknown businesses that enable them to use tough sell tactics against us. Control the data and you may control the problem. Although greedy business practices prevent this control, thus America and the world is being subjected to personal data shared with anybody who wants to buy it. Data mining is not regulated.

    Now try to understand the technology and the rewards of personal data mining when confined to only law enforcement. Immigration and labor law infractions, child abuse, kidnappings, locating terrorist activities, banking and loan infractions, many criminal behaviors waiting to attack, illegal gun activity, illegal drug interventions, illegal business activities (dumping toxic wastes, bad employee hiring & firing practices), public authorities employing illegal activities, and the list can go on and on. There is merit behind the collection of personal data mining of all our activities and finances. It is not a surprise to anybody that criminal behavior is rampant in our society. The sole purpose of collection of personal data by UAV's, tapping our cell phones or telecommunications and covert surveillance should only be for law enforcement. One of my pet thoughts is that there is a criminal network within America that preys on citizens, capturing and holding hostage people for some evil agenda. These hostages are held for years in captivity and only a few are found where a media event takes place exposing the criminals. I encourage everybody that read this to search on the internet the missing people data. You will be surprised over decades of missing people, there are millions in the records. Yes, there is a criminal network. Business dealings with our personal data should be regulated to the basic it is illegal and will be punished as criminal activity. But let's expose the criminals with strong collection of our data on everything including all people, businesses, corporations, and even our government (local, state and federal).

    So in this light, Dutch is right we (America and the world are becoming scared of our own shadow. Who knows what is being accomplished with our personal data, to what criminal activity is being waged against us, and how can we stop this data collection. It's scary because it is a extremely massive problem in our livelihood. Even law enforcement and public authorities in charge of maintaining the law and our U.S. Constitution is condoning the use of private sale of our personal data. It's a large problem and until America revolts and takes charge of who's in public office we will only see the problem getting worse. Imagine a local store informing you at the checkout, "you can buy this item, because you have a record (collected from personal data)". We can't stop technology advancing because companies and authorities desiring data collection have large amounts of cash funding these methods. However, with mobilizing the public into action we can help prevent or mitigate the problems of too many people having our personal data. This needs to stop and regulated to protect our rights.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    " A. F." yes thanks you see it the right way. For instance the problem is already started with any of your own purchases; if I buy something on-line; immediately I get bombarded with adds for simular products. This "snooping" will only expand on your personal life; they will know what kind of beer you drink, the size of your shoes and the color of your underwear!! Let alone who is "snooping" on this site to find out what you think etc.
    No nothing is personal privacy anymore; scary indeed.
  • Other Party
    Nebraska
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    Dutch you are right there's no personal privacy anymore. Can anyone say that they aren't being spied on? I doubt it. Can even President Obama be sure HE'S not being spied upon by his own government? But he wouldn't know anything about ANY of that spying stuff, or much of anything else. He doesn't know anything about anything until he sees it on TV or reads it in the newspaper. Or so he says.

    How many US Government agencies are involved in spying, and how much does it cost? I don't know, and I'm not sure anyone REALLY knows, but it seems to be completely out of control.

    And the online ads are even worse than you say. You don't even have to buy something online, you can just LOOK at some product, and you'll get hit with ads for that product.
  • Democrat
    Missouri
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    The medicine you acquire at your favorite drug store, online shopping, or phone-in prescription service has all the information necessary to conduct the transaction, plus it can be distributed without your knowledge. Even if you acknowledge receipt of a privacy notice from the business you deal with, how do you really know that none of your privacy information is not shared? Many of those privacy notices indicate only sharing with companies they do business with, so, how do we protect our information from getting distributed from those unknown businesses?

    This too big of a problem to be handled by a few. It must need a grass root level approach to make politics understand America requires more privacy protection. I could care less for the law authority intrusion on what prescriptions or over the counter drugs I consume. If it mitigates the Meth and illegal drug trade, I'm all for it and support their cause. I do not my information shared with Lilly, Bayer, or some pharma-drug company what legal drugs I regularly take. I know my doctor shares this information with all his salesman coming in asking him to give me free samples. I just don't like the business end of this privacy information being shared.

    Again, the technology of obtaining privacy information cannot be stopped until America starts prosecuting those that deal our information as if it was their own.
  • Liberal
    Other Party
    Llos Angeles, CA
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    Whether you agree or not. You don't have rights. You have privileges that are extended to you. They can take them anytime lacking constitutional authority.
    The Patriot Act should have opened your eyes to this.....Read VCLEA and PLURA (statutes) Prisoner litigation reform act. They always start stripping your rights in the guise of a good reason. They start with prisoners and foreigners. Not one person has the Authority to overrule the constitution,,,and yet they do.......They've decimated the fourth amendment in the last 25 years. They are the Kings, we are the peasants...... Constitutional rights are granted when our rulers allow it.


    Prior to the fourteenth amendment we (citizens) were actually called " state citizenry".... After, we became US CITIZENS. Our status as free men ended with that amendment. It ended slavery for one people and placed shackles on all of us at the very same moment
  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    I HATE how our privacy has been trampled upon in the name of fighting to keep us safe. This is total BS. I think the only solution is for voters to tell the candidates that this won't be accepted going forward. The govt. has just gone too far.