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Forums > All Posts > What is the right wing "solution" in Egypt?
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2011-02-03 05:07 PM

Schmidt
Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 1058
Reference: Leslie Savan, The Nation, Egypt Leaves the Right Crazed and Confused, February 2, 2011

Leslie Savan, writing in the Nation's Group Blog, notes: "The uprising against Hosni Mubarak in Egypt has left the US right wing confused and grasping for talking points: Unlike most political events, the crisis in Egypt can’t be neatly hung on one of their us-versus-them frames. Not knowing what side to take, unable to easily tell the good guys from the bad, they’ve been suddenly thrown from the comfort of certitude into a slush of self-doubt."

Like many of watching the news, Savin has correctly observed that "The GOP is all over the map...Krauthammer is griping that Obama has stated his support for the people too honestly."

No word yet from Pence or Rohrabacher.  McCain, Boehner and McCain support Obama's cautious approach.  Ann Coulter says Mubarak is awful.  Then Mike Huckabee reporting from Israel cites “real shock and surprise down to the average, on-the-street Israeli citizen at how quickly the Obama administration abandoned a 30-year ally and a long-standing friend to peace and stability, President Mubarak.”

Glenn Beck says, "is not about freedom. It is being orchestrated by the Marxist Communists and primarily also the Muslim Brotherhood."

But we haven't yet heard from Sarah Palin.  I'm waiting for her tweet that "Obama's showing his inexperience in dealing with these matters."  Want to take a bet?

Or maybe she's first has to find Egypt on the map. Ha! If she relies on Fox News, then she is really in trouble. See their map on Media Matters.

http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200907270040

When will the right wing Tea Partiers put their views on the line?  After the fact?
2011-02-03 09:07 PM
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CARLITOS BAM-BAM
Dallas, TX
Posts: 897
Obama's real-idealism on Iran's Velvet Revolution has repeated itself in Egypt.  With geo-political concerns outweighing organic develpments, the President faces vast strategic dilemmas. 1.) he can't advocate a destabilizing physical overthrow for obvious geo-political reasons 2.)  He can't appear to be that close to the protest movement for its own sake.   To protect the credibility of the protest movement  as a true organic democratic movement...there needs to be a fair amount of distance between the WH and the protestors, which brings us to 3.) if we're pigeonholded on Egypt, as a promoter of populist street-revolutions against our own allies, this will contribute to further regime destabilization elsewhere by leaders who fear they could be next.  And finally 4.) without some sort of orderly transition of political power, Egyptian military forces are likely to seize power indefinitely and it's not clear who we might be dealing with.

 
So the WH's position on Egypt is heavily nuanced.....they're taking this day by day....the concern now is for an end to the violence on the streets in Egypt.. however while they are promoting ambuiguity in the foreground, seeking to slightly prop up Mubarak, they're also laying out a thoughtful way for him to remove himself with some sort of dignity...before it gets any uglier.  

My thoughts and prayers are with the protestors, and I hope the revolution spreads further than Yemen.  May Iran's Velvet revolution bring down the unIslamic Thugocracy!  Support your Arab brothers and sisters!  Support their sovereignty as free men and women!
2011-02-04 06:41 AM
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CARLITOS BAM-BAM
Dallas, TX
Posts: 897
Christians protecting Muslims while they pray during protests in Egypt: picture link


Hope for the human race?  You bet.


-Kaboom
2011-02-05 10:10 PM

Schmidt
Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 1058
By now everyone has probably seen the Glenn Beck conspiracy theory about the Muslim Brotherhood and the "Caliphate." Several news sources have criticized Beck on his statements.  Chris Matthews called him "loony tunes."

To summarize from the Examiner, "According to Beck, the Egyptian revolution is not about the citizens of the country fighting for their political rights or better economic conditions.  Instead, the Egyptian people are being "played" by the Muslim Brotherhood.  The Muslim Brotherhood is also part of larger movement by progressives and Marxist to take over much of the world in the pursuit of "social justice."  Under Beck theory the Egyptian revolution will not only spread to other countries the Middle East, but also to India and Europe.  The caliphate will consist of India and much of Southeast Asia, in addition to Portugal, Spain, France, and the United Kingdom."

This craziness fits with just about all the other stuff Beck says.  It doesn't surprise me.  But what does concern me is how many Americans buy into every word that Beck says.  As I browse readers comments at the bottom of many media articles, both right and left, there are many Americans that agree with Beck and slam Matthews and others that are critical of his "looniness." What does this say about a segment of America that crazy talk like this is actually believed? I sure hope they are just a small representation of the right wing.  Wow.
 
2011-02-05 11:58 PM
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CARLITOS BAM-BAM
Dallas, TX
Posts: 897
Mediamatters has a whole gigantic collection of crazy shit that Beck has said in the last few days. The man has seriously lost it. His mad bastard psychotic behavior has reached new heights. His mind is literally collapsing into a Loughner-like delusional state, and it's Bad Gonzo Craziness at a mass-production level. The Joseph Goebbelization of our politics has reached a new turning point.
2011-02-07 08:04 PM
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CARLITOS BAM-BAM
Dallas, TX
Posts: 897
Russ Douhat at the New York Times wrote an interested article yesterday, titled "Obama the Realist."

I disagree with the notion that Obama's  foreign policy is more realpolitik than liberal internationalism.  To be sure, I recognize the reasonability of his conclusions, and I'm not suggesting that Douhat is completely way off base; but I do disagree.
Ultimatley, I believe Douhat's analysis typifies Realist bias towards Idealism....and when your standard for idealism is based on negative connotations such as naivety and weakness, anyone who is not those things is a realist.  In my opinion, this is Bullshit.  Obama is a clearcut liberal internationalist...... Attempting to mediate Egyptian discord by laying out a plan for transition-government is not realism, it's common-sense.   Let us be clear about where  the realist's line up on the Egyptian revolution....they prefer Muburak and many are prepared to blame Obama for losing an ally. 

Now one could argue on a whole host of national security issues that there is a substantial drift between Obama the candidate and Obama the President;but  I would argue that the people that believe this must not have been paying attention to the words coming out of Obama's mouth since his anti-dumb war speech following Congress' approval of the authorization to use force against Iraq.    


I could go on and on, but it would be better if someone else jumped in here to argue with me.
2011-02-08 09:38 AM

Schmidt
Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 1058
To be able to understand the nuances of this discussion, one must first better understand what is meant by "realist" and "liberal internationalist."  Both terms are used by scholars, sometimes loosely, to make a point.  Wikipedia provides brief summaries and I'll highlight a few key points as they pertain to Obama's handling of the situation in Egypt and other world conflicts.

Realism or political realism "prioritizes national interest and security over ideology, moral concerns and social reconstructions."

"Realist theories tend to uphold that: 1) the international system is in a constant state of antagonism, 2) states must arrive at relations with other states on their own, rather than it being dictated to them by some higher controlling entity, 3) the overriding national interest of each state is its national security and survival, 4) relations between states are determined by their levels of power derived primarily from their military and economic capabilities, 5) the interjection of morality and values into international relations causes reckless commitments, diplomatic rigidity, and the escalation of conflict, and 6) international institutions, non-governmental organizations, multinational corporations, individuals and other sub-state or trans-state actors are viewed as having little independent influence."

Liberal internationalism is a "foreign policy doctrine that argues that liberal states should intervene in other sovereign states in order to pursue liberal objectives. Such intervention can include both military invasion and humanitarian aid."

"The goal of liberal internationalism is to achieve global structures within the international system that are inclined towards promoting a liberal world order. To that extent, global free trade, liberal economics and liberal political systems are all encouraged. In addition, liberal internationalists are dedicated towards encouraging democracy to emerge globally. Once realized, it will result in a 'peace dividend', as liberal states have relations that are characterized by non-violence, and that relations between democracies is characterized by the democratic peace thesis."

So in looking at these opposing policies, Obama's actions so far in Egypt fit better with that of a liberal internationalist.  I disagree with Douthat when he says that the "administration’s real goal has been to dispense with Mubarak while keeping the dictator’s military subordinates very much in charge...any opening to democracy will be carefully stage-managed by an insider like Omar Suleiman, the former general and Egyptian intelligence chief who’s best known in Washington for his cooperation with the C.I.A.’s rendition program. This isn’t softheaded peacenik dithering. It’s cold-blooded realpolitik."

The common sense approach that Obama is following has both a short term temporary outlook...a transition phase that some might interpret as "realism," but clearly also a longer term goal of a stable democratic government. The pragmatist Obama understands that there will be a power vacuum when Mubarak leaves and that transition must be handled very carefully and diplomatically with non-interference from western countries. The military is the only organization capable of keeping order during the transition so they must be "nurtured" in the meantime.  Cutting off military aid is not nurturing that relationship.

In the other conflicts and wars outside of Egypt, Obama is again taking a pragmatist approach that in many minds could be classified as the better of many bad options that he inherited from eight years of neo-conservatism and a thriving, immense military-industrial machine that needs to be continually fed by acting out the neoconservative interventionist ideology. The Islamophobic fear mongering that followed 9/11 has shifted American popular opinion to the right.  Obama has to deal with that realizing that he is not going to be able to change perceptions overnight. I would dearly like to see him extricate us from Afghanistan, but "the other" that might emerge in Afghanistan with the USA and their allies out is not something that many of us liberals fully understand. I believe Obama has weighed the pros and cons, and is by necessity having to continue with some of the "realist" ideology for the time being. He fully understands that getting out is far more difficult than getting in, and he has made statements to that effect in both his campaign and presidency.

2011-02-08 10:29 PM
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CARLITOS BAM-BAM
Dallas, TX
Posts: 897
Wonderful post....
The point I'd like to make though....is that Bush II was not a realist, per se, but an offensive-realist, waddling with notions of Wilsonianism....
Bush II, the candidate, was a realist....Remember he campaigned against nation-building and peacekeeping. 

Realpolitik may be crass and Machiavellian in origin, but it does not lend itself towards over-extension.  Realists are very aware of the limitations of power.  The realist position is to avoid wars, via the maintence of power; the point of realism is to preserve power, not to recklessly expend or risk it. 

In Afghanistan, Obama*** inherited a classic case of liberal interventionism....For Christsake's it's a NATO war......that's right NATO.....we are not there alone, we have numerous allies.....and we are fighting for a cause greater than ourselves.....the survival of an Afghan Republic.  Direct and immediate national security interests here are minimal.  Afghanistan is a piss pour launching pad for attacks on the West.  Notice that it does not have a single seaport, nor does the airport in Kabul strike anyone as modern.  But Afghanistan is a launching pad for attacks in Pakistan and Central Asia, and if the West ever hopes to open those markets, there must be regional security and stability, which cannot be built around a lawless center.  But that itself doesn't justify our presence; only a sense of moral obligation to the Afghan people remains as a legimate reason to stay, given  the possibilities that remain thus far for their future, if we stick with them.

America rushed into Afghanistan after 9/11.  I was against it.  It was a terrible plan from the begining.  And I screamed as loud as I could and explained the situation clearly:  Bush is trying to play the Great Game with a subdivision, and this will inevitably swallow and suck us whole.   It was stupid, stupid, stupid.  And then he wanted to attack Iraq?  I nearly had a fucking heart attack.  Then I tried to join to help us save face, but I was rejected for health, drug, criminal, and probably political reasons.  In any event, I don't want the Secret Service on my ass, so I'm not gonna mention anymore of how I feel about Bush II, because I don't know how to say anything else that won't get me arrested. 



***It bears worth discussing Obama's 'Bush-like' rationale for remaining in the fight, which I did not do here.  As I am now out of neurons, it will have to be for another post.  But hint, hint, I am not one to say the comparison is completely accurate.
2011-02-09 11:01 AM
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CARLITOS BAM-BAM
Dallas, TX
Posts: 897
Afghan Reintergration program:  900 militants lay down arms.  Huffington post today.
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