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Sanders is ahead in everything.

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  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
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    Pensacola, FL
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    It also seems hard to tell what is right or wrong. Does the entire financial system operate under the perception of too big too fail.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Carlitos Wrote:
    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Carlitos Wrote: It’s weird how you are fixated on assuming his supporters expect a “Sanders dictatorship”.

    Sanders basically promised a “Sanders dictatorship” during his 2016 campaign. He convinced his supporters he’d give them free! healthcare and free! college and free! lunch without ever once explaining how he was going to actually follow through on any one of his promises.

    um....no. He had proposals and legislative sketches. He built in tax increases. He was pretty clear on what his policy preferences would be and that final legislation would be the work of Congress.

    That may be how you, an intelligent individual who understands the complexities of running the country may have interpreted his promises, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of his supporters actually believed that he would be able to follow through on what he was promising them.

    I watched many of his speeches and campaign rallies and he never talked about compromising with Congress to get his some version of his policy proposals etched into law. What he talked about was free! college, free! healthcare, and free! everything without ever once explaining that those free! things will require a massive tax increase on the lower and middle classes. I said over and over again that you can tax the richest 1% at 99.99999% and you wouldn't come close to paying for even ONE of Bernie's promises, let alone all of them.

    Carlitos Wrote:

    "Not just that, but he convinced his die hard supporters that Hillary and Donald were one in the same."

    He campaigned for Hillary.

    After spending the entire campaign painting her and Donald as one in the same. Do you honestly think Bernie or busters saw him campaign for Hillary and changed their minds?

    Carlitos Wrote:

    "Sure, Bernie has tapped into the real angst that many Americans are feeling, but he’s using that angst to boost his political profile instead of actually having a real conversation with his supporters about the complexities of life in a modern day economy that is going through rapid technological changes."

    Are you sure you “like” Sanders?

    It's complicated. He talks a good talk and I *personally* agree with much of what he says, but he is also a demagogue who promises the world to his down on their luck supporters and has convinced many (not all) of them that he and he alone will fix all of their problems with the stroke of a pen.

    Just because I agree with many of his stances doesn't mean I'm convinced they would be the best thing for a country of over 330 million people. What works in Oregon and Vermont may not always work in Alabama or Texas.

    Bernie's been disingenuous AT BEST and flat out deceitful at worst in explaining exactly how any of his promises will become a reality for the 330 million plus people who live in this country. Intelligent people like yourself are capable of reading through the lines and are able to understand how difficult it is to usher in sweeping change in one fell swoop, but millions of his supporters truly believe that he and he alone will somehow make it so they are no longer suffering. In my opinion I think he taps into the genuine anger and frustration that millions of Americans have simply to raise his political profile.

    That is why I genuinely struggle with Sanders. While I fully understand I eventually have to move on, I am still seething with anger that his die hard supporters in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania were so angered that he wasn't the Democratic nominee that they overruled the will of the American voters and handed Donald the Presidency.

    His campaign rhetoric and impossible to fulfill promises convinced just enough of his supporters that Hillary and Donald were one in the same. Some people tell me I should just "get over it," but I've found that rather difficult because their selfishness is the reason why we are stuck with this monster for the next 3 and potentially 7 years.

    That's kind of hard to "get over."

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Jared, why spent so much time on this? This is the past and does not come back. We need a very strong campaign and strong candidates other than Sanders to win. I've not seen that yet . In my opinion the success in VA was only because of a "ground-up" movement; not really an DNC groundswell. Perez is an weakling as far as I've seen him on TV. He's got the standard replies: He can't help it. Thus forget Bernie; he's too old anyway. Let's get some fresh blood instead, with the qualifications as I described in an other "thread" ( copied herewith):

    Carlitos, I agree we need new blood with "brains" and "common sense" who went to "school" ( university or higher) and have "worldwide experience" and is not a "racists" nor being a "white supreme promoter" nor an "evangelical" fanatic.

    Of course the candidate should get the "right" background checks/vetting and not be an "billionaire"(this is asking for corruption) or someone who only "loves" money or "corruption" and cares for an healthy and well educated society as well hates spending money on waste type programs, like "wall's" or "parades" or "military overpriced" junk, as well demands strict budgets for the military with strict account management and of course is not a "warmonger".

    One of the first actions should be getting rid of the "electoral college" as well get all the "donor" money out of the "elections" (only money up to a certain amount to cover well defined cost ) as well forbid the lobbying system.

    However I think none of my "points" will be met or considered; thus the "swamp" is here to stay!!

    Congratulations "Un- United Banana Republic of America"

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Dutch Wrote: Jared, why spent so much time on this?
    Because the thread is about Bernie and how he is (supposedly) "ahead in everything."
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Dutch Wrote: Jared, why spent so much time on this?
    Because the thread is about Bernie and how he is (supposedly) "ahead in everything."
    Read my "thread" that will tell you enough , I hope! Bernie is no longer in the picture, so why spent time on that, while the whole country goes to hell?
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Dutch Wrote: Read my "thread" that will tell you enough , I hope! Bernie is no longer in the picture, so why spent time on that, while the whole country goes to hell?

    I would love nothing more than seeing Bernie exit stage left, but he's too egotistical for that.

    My fear is that his die hard supporters are so brainwashed that they will continue to split the party, which will inevitably lead to electoral defeat for Democrats nationwide. It's Bernie's way or the highway and many of his supporters chose the highway in 2016.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Dutch Wrote: Read my "thread" that will tell you enough , I hope! Bernie is no longer in the picture, so why spent time on that, while the whole country goes to hell?

    I would love nothing more than seeing Bernie exit stage left, but he's too egotistical for that.

    My fear is that his die hard supporters are so brainwashed that they will continue to split the party, which will inevitably lead to electoral defeat for Democrats nationwide. It's Bernie's way or the highway and many of his supporters chose the highway in 2016.

    Jared, sure, I agree with you. But people have to realize he's an old man and likely does not run again. Thus the only thing I agree on is what he promoted, is tax payer paid (hopefully) "better education" as well better healthcare as in Europe. But yeah, Trump rather spends it on "wall's" or the army. Thus the DNC should have these things in their "platform"; however should start such with initially small steps in the right direction.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
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    Portland, OR
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    Dutch Wrote: Jared, sure, I agree with you. But people have to realize he's an old man and likely does not run again.

    I would be shocked if Bernie didn't run again.

    I won't be shocked when he inevitably loses the Democratic Primary (for a second time) and I won't be shocked if his die hard supporters thwart the will of the American people yet again.

    Dutch Wrote: Thus the only thing I agree on is what he promoted, is tax payer paid (hopefully) "better education" as well better healthcare as in Europe.

    I too agree with many of his policy proposals that are specifically geared towards the lower and middle classes. What I don't agree with his how he claims those policy proposals will be paid for. I also don't like how he makes these broad promises without being honest about how monumentally difficult getting even ONE of them passed into law will be.

    I'm all for expanding guaranteed taxpayer funded education through college, but that will come at a cost that will not be paid for exclusively by the 1%. It will be paid for by all of us. I'm ok with that, but that's not what Bernie promises.

    I'm all for a single-payer healthcare system (Medicare for all), but that will come at a cost that will not be paid for exclusively by the 1%. It will be paid for by all of us. I'm ok with that, but that's not what Bernie promises.

    Bernie has convinced his supporters that he will deliver free! education and free! healthcare. He's telling bald-faced lies, but he gets away with it because who doesn't want free! stuff?!

    Dutch Wrote: But yeah, Trump rather spends it on "wall's" or the army. Thus the DNC should have these things in their "platform"; however should start such with initially small steps in the right direction.

    The DNC DOES have those things in their platform, but people are too damn lazy to take the time out of their busy days to actually read it.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Dallas, TX
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Carlitos Wrote:
    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Carlitos Wrote: It’s weird how you are fixated on assuming his supporters expect a “Sanders dictatorship”.

    Sanders basically promised a “Sanders dictatorship” during his 2016 campaign. He convinced his supporters he’d give them free! healthcare and free! college and free! lunch without ever once explaining how he was going to actually follow through on any one of his promises.

    um....no. He had proposals and legislative sketches. He built in tax increases. He was pretty clear on what his policy preferences would be and that final legislation would be the work of Congress.

    That may be how you, an intelligent individual who understands the complexities of running the country may have interpreted his promises, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of his supporters actually believed that he would be able to follow through on what he was promising them.

    I watched many of his speeches and campaign rallies and he never talked about compromising with Congress to get his some version of his policy proposals etched into law. What he talked about was free! college, free! healthcare, and free! everything without ever once explaining that those free! things will require a massive tax increase on the lower and middle classes. I said over and over again that you can tax the richest 1% at 99.99999% and you wouldn't come close to paying for even ONE of Bernie's promises, let alone all of them.

    Bernie is an amendment king and a bipartisan deal-maker.

    He had detailed proposals.

    All government spending is "paid for" by marking up accounts in the banking system, as that's the only way it can be done. The real questions are about what the government is buying (and how and at what nominal price).

    Sen. Sanders included tax increases in his proposals, especially for his healthcare proposal(s).

    I'm not here to defend Sanders fiscal policy. Plenty to bitch about.

    Carlitos Wrote:

    "Not just that, but he convinced his die hard supporters that Hillary and Donald were one in the same."

    He campaigned for Hillary.

    After spending the entire campaign painting her and Donald as one in the same. Do you honestly think Bernie or busters saw him campaign for Hillary and changed their minds?

    Bernie didn't tell people to Bernie or bust, but to vote for the eventual nominee, who was Clinton.

    He told us to vote for Clinton. If some left wing people couldn't bring themselves to vote for Clinton, that's Clinton's fault, or those left wingers fault, but not Bernie's.

    It's not Bernie's fault that Clinton did not place emphasis on the rust belt states of Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Michigan. We know now that members of the local Clinton and Democratic Party campaigns were screaming for help from the national campaign in those pivotal states.

    Carlitos Wrote:

    "Sure, Bernie has tapped into the real angst that many Americans are feeling, but he’s using that angst to boost his political profile instead of actually having a real conversation with his supporters about the complexities of life in a modern day economy that is going through rapid technological changes."

    Are you sure you “like” Sanders?

    It's complicated. He talks a good talk and I *personally* agree with much of what he says, but he is also a demagogue who promises the world to his down on their luck supporters and has convinced many (not all) of them that he and he alone will fix all of their problems with the stroke of a pen.

    You sound like one of the right-wingers criticizing Obama in 2008.

    Just because I agree with many of his stances doesn't mean I'm convinced they would be the best thing for a country of over 330 million people. What works in Oregon and Vermont may not always work in Alabama or Texas.

    This is a conservative argument.

    Bernie's been disingenuous AT BEST and flat out deceitful at worst in explaining exactly how any of his promises will become a reality for the 330 million plus people who live in this country. Intelligent people like yourself are capable of reading through the lines and are able to understand how difficult it is to usher in sweeping change in one fell swoop, but millions of his supporters truly believe that he and he alone will somehow make it so they are no longer suffering. In my opinion I think he taps into the genuine anger and frustration that millions of Americans have simply to raise his political profile.

    You sound like a Republican.

    That is why I genuinely struggle with Sanders. While I fully understand I eventually have to move on, I am still seething with anger that his die hard supporters in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania were so angered that he wasn't the Democratic nominee that they overruled the will of the American voters and handed Donald the Presidency.

    This is an outrageous, inflammatory claim.

    His campaign rhetoric and impossible to fulfill promises convinced just enough of his supporters that Hillary and Donald were one in the same. Some people tell me I should just "get over it," but I've found that rather difficult because their selfishness is the reason why we are stuck with this monster for the next 3 and potentially 7 years.

    That's kind of hard to "get over."

    It's obvious why Clinton failed.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Dutch Wrote: Jared, sure, I agree with you. But people have to realize he's an old man and likely does not run again.

    I would be shocked if Bernie didn't run again.

    I won't be shocked when he inevitably loses the Democratic Primary (for a second time) and I won't be shocked if his die hard supporters thwart the will of the American people yet again.

    Dutch Wrote: Thus the only thing I agree on is what he promoted, is tax payer paid (hopefully) "better education" as well better healthcare as in Europe.

    I too agree with many of his policy proposals that are specifically geared towards the lower and middle classes. What I don't agree with his how he claims those policy proposals will be paid for. I also don't like how he makes these broad promises without being honest about how monumentally difficult getting even ONE of them passed into law will be.

    I'm all for expanding guaranteed taxpayer funded education through college, but that will come at a cost that will not be paid for exclusively by the 1%. It will be paid for by all of us. I'm ok with that, but that's not what Bernie promises.

    I'm all for a single-payer healthcare system (Medicare for all), but that will come at a cost that will not be paid for exclusively by the 1%. It will be paid for by all of us. I'm ok with that, but that's not what Bernie promises.

    Bernie has convinced his supporters that he will deliver free! education and free! healthcare. He's telling bald-faced lies, but he gets away with it because who doesn't want free! stuff?!

    Dutch Wrote: But yeah, Trump rather spends it on "wall's" or the army. Thus the DNC should have these things in their "platform"; however should start such with initially small steps in the right direction.

    The DNC DOES have those things in their platform, but people are too damn lazy to take the time out of their busy days to actually read it.

    Jared, I said "......... however should start with initial small steps in the right direction". But yeah Trump nor the GOP does not want "educated" people in this country; they won't vote for him once they've "learned" something. Keep them dumb as well force them to look at FOX news. About the DNC platform; then you get the same question as you ask: How to pay for that? As long as this country has its priorities wrong, it will stay stupid as in any "banana republic".
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Carlitos Wrote: It’s obvious why Clinton failed.

    Yes, it is.

    An outdated electoral system that allows someone to lose by 3 million votes, but still “win” an election. Hence my anger at Bernie or busters who are *proven* to have been the difference in the three states that handed Donald the presidency against the will of the people of this country.

    You can accuse me of lying or leveling “outrageous, inflammatory” accusations, but that simply goes to show you believe what you want to believe regardless of the facts at hand.

    Edit/Update:

    Michigan: Sanders primary voters who voted for Trump - 47,915; Trump's margin of victory - 10,704

    Pennsylvania: Sanders primary voters who voted for Trump - 117,100; Trump's margin of victory - 44,292

    Wisconsin: Sanders primary voters who voted for Trump - 51,317; Trump's margin of victory - 22,748

    Source: 2016 National Popular Vote Tracker, U.S. Election Atlas, Brian Schaffner

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Carlitos Wrote: It’s obvious why Clinton failed.

    Yes, it is.

    An outdated electoral system that allows someone to lose by 3 million votes, but still “win” an election. Hence my anger at Bernie or busters who are *proven* to have been the difference in the three states that handed Donald the presidency against the will of the people of this country.

    You can accuse me of lying or leveling “outrageous, inflammatory” accusations, but that simply goes to show you believe what you want to believe regardless of the facts at hand.

    Yes Jared, indeed an outdated "electoral college" created the "chaos" we are in now. How many "threads" did I spent on that in the past? I bet it won't be changed soon either!!
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Dallas, TX
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Carlitos Wrote: It’s obvious why Clinton failed.

    Yes, it is.

    An outdated electoral system that allows someone to lose by 3 million votes, but still “win” an election. Hence my anger at Bernie or busters who are *proven* to have been the difference in the three states that handed Donald the presidency against the will of the people of this country.

    You can accuse me of lying or leveling “outrageous, inflammatory” accusations, but that simply goes to show you believe what you want to believe regardless of the facts at hand.

    Edit/Update:

    Michigan: Sanders primary voters who voted for Trump - 47,915; Trump's margin of victory - 10,704

    Pennsylvania: Sanders primary voters who voted for Trump - 117,100; Trump's margin of victory - 44,292

    Wisconsin: Sanders primary voters who voted for Trump - 51,317; Trump's margin of victory - 22,748

    Source: 2016 National Popular Vote Tracker, U.S. Election Atlas, Brian

    More primary Clinton voters voted for McCain in 2008 than Bernie primary voters who voted for Trump. You can also safely assume that many Bernie voters never would have voted in the Dem primary if not for his campaign, and they never had any intention of voting for Clinton.

    Meanwhile, despite the threat posed, Clinton Democrats spent the primary punching left instead of reaching out to horsetrade and talk the Bernie or Busters and Stein voters off the ledge.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
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    Portland, OR
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    Carlitos Wrote: More primary Clinton voters voted for McCain in 2008 than Bernie primary voters who voted for Trump.

    10% of Clinton supporters voted for McCain in 2008.

    12% of Bernie supporters voted for Donald in 2016.

    Carlitos Wrote: You can also safely assume that many Bernie voters never would have voted in the Dem primary if not for his campaign, and they never had any intention of voting for Clinton.

    Meanwhile, despite the threat posed, Clinton Democrats spent the primary punching left instead of reaching out to horsetrade and talk the Bernie or Busters and Stein voters off the ledge.

    So the party should cater to the fringe minority and agree to their every demand in order to get them on board?

    That's what drives me nuts about Bernie or busters. They tried to hijack the party and then burned everything to the ground when they didn't get their way. They are like little babies who throw a fit every time their mom says no.

    The only thing their "my way or the highway" mentality will do is guarantee a permanent Democratic minority at the national level for the next decade or more...if our country is lucky enough to make it that long.

    But I'm sure it will all be worth it for them because they can always say that they would have won if we only listened to them. It's always easier to be a sore loser than actually figuring out how to govern a country of 330 million people.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Jared, What is the use of discussion this? We are right now in "chaos" and the DNC is still trying to wake up of their own created disaster; Thus look at what can be done to stop Trump expanding his "dictatorship". That should be "priority one"

    Right now I have little confidence that they have the right attitude to do so, let alone the right people to motivate the "voters". The Russians are laughing all the way about our stupid system as well naive leaders who are fond of them.