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Why Hillary lost.

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  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
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    Pensacola, FL
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    jaredsxtn Wrote: I've already given you the factual evidence, along with a link to that evidence, proving that Bernie or bust voters who voted for Donald gave him more than enough votes to win Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania. It's not my fault you have dug your head in the sand and refused to look at the evidence I provided.
    The main reason Hillary lost was a campaign that was absolutely negligent. Denying that is setting up for major defeats in every facet of coming elections. There needs to be a message that resonates with voters. People need to feel they are not forgotten. Pointing out all the reasons why people should vote democratic does not work. Getting people to vote is needed. Trump resonated with lots of good paying jobs and make America great again. People don't need to hear that they have it good and that America is already great. They need a promise of better times. If it is not recognized that people need to be attracted to the party to vote then all is lost. Most people don't care about anything. They think they have no control or influence regarding their conditions. The argument has to be single payer. Thaty will show people that government can help them. Lifting the burden of paying for health care would be a winning argument. There is no negative for campaigning single payer. If the argument is presented openly that single payer saves lives, reduces suffering and improves the standard of living then there is no argument against single payer. The republicans themselves avoided healthcare after Trump got elected because a discussion would show that Republicans don't care about people's lives. They can't defend against that. Arguments pointing out the need for a Democratic President that don't address people's well being and welfare directly will have no support.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Chet Ruminski Wrote: The main reason Hillary lost was a campaign that was absolutely negligent. Denying that is setting up for major defeats in every facet of coming elections.

    You said "[t]here is no factual evidence that I am aware of that shows Bernie supporters voting for Trump. I find it hard to believe that a supporter of progressive ideals would vote for Trump." I responded that I showed that evidence in my very first post in this thread and even provided the link to it.

    Denying that Bernie voters who switched over to Donald handed the Presidency to Donald is not factual. More than enough Bernie voters who switched over to Donald in those three states gave him the Presidency. You might find it "hard to believe" but your beliefs don't matter when put up against the facts.

    So yes - I'm still angry and will continue to be angry at the Bernie voters who switched over to Trump. The vast majority of them still voted for Hillary, but the problem is that more than enough of them in three critical states switched from Bernie to Donald and handed the Presidency to Donald.

    You may disagree with me when I say they are the reason Hillary lost and come up with a million red herrings to try to prove your point, but Hillary lost because certain Bernie voters in three swing states were so angry that their preferred candidate lost the primary that they were willing to sabotage the entire thing. Unfortunately they succeeded.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
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    Pensacola, FL
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Chet Ruminski Wrote: The reason I posted this was to show there is no solution according to jaredsxtn. Unless you admit Hillary messed up and try to fix the mistakes there is no hope for 2020. Continually insulting and demeaning is not the way to success. There has to be a change recognizing and addressing problems.

    There are plenty of solutions.

    We could finally wake up and pass a Constitutional amendment to abolish the electoral college and let the people decide who the leader of all 50 states should be.

    People who were pissed off that their preferred candidate didn't win the primary could suck it up and vote for someone who stands for 90% of what they believe in instead of voting for someone who doesn't stand for anything at all.

    Speaking of voting - the 40 plus percent of eligible voters that are too lazy to vote could get off their ass and actually vote for once.

    I can go on and on and on with countless more solutions if you'd like.

    "We could finally wake up and pass a Constitutional amendment to abolish the electoral college and let the people decide who the leader of all 50 states should be."

    jaredsxtn, would abolising the electoral college favor Democratic candidates? If there is no benefit for the Democratic Party then it is a waste of time and money to even talk about it anymore. Since nobody is pushing hard for abolishing the electoral college then I would have to say it doesn't favor one party over the other. The only thing that I care about is electing Democrats.

    "People who were pissed off that their preferred candidate didn't win the primary could suck it up and vote for someone who stands for 90% of what they believe in instead of voting for someone who doesn't stand for anything at all."

    What possible mechanism could be employed to get people to vote contrary to what they are thinking and feeling? People need outside concern for their well being. Democratic Politicians need to make people feel important.

    "Speaking of voting - the 40 plus percent of eligible voters that are too lazy to vote could get off their ass and actually vote for once."

    Totally agree. But it didn't happen in 2016. Obviously something is needed to get people to vote. It will take more than a demeaning attitude, lecturing and name calling. People need to feel recognized. People need to feel like politicians care about and want to do something positive to improve their quality of life. Most people could care less who is president because most people have seen their quality of life ignored. Single payer as a campaign would show people how politicians care about them. It would definitely show that Republicans don't care about poor people suffering or dying. Bronze, silver, gold and Platinum. Why? If a person buys a bronze plan chances are they will not have the money to take advantage of insurance. They are simply subsidizing the other plans. Should only be one plan for everybody.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    Fact: Twelve percent of Bernie supporters voted for Trump; more than enough to give Donald the win.

    Did Hillary get votes from Sanders supporters that might not have voted at all if Sanders hadn't inspired them? I don't think it is totally one sided that Trump benefitted. Did people vote that might not have voted at all?

    "The wave of young people swept into politics by the unlikely campaign of Sen. Bernie Sanders has been one of the top stories of this election."

    Would Hillary have suffered a greater defeat if not for voters brought in by Sanders?

    minnpost.com/politics-policy/2016/07/be...

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    That is an opinion piece written over a year ago. I'm not opposed to opinion pieces - heck, I write them all the time - but the thing people must always remind themselves of when they are reading an opinion piece is that it's an opinion. Opinions and editorials are very different than news articles.

    What I provided was evidence proving that Bernie Sanders to Trump voters swung the election. It wasn't an opinion piece, but a study of voter habits in the 2016 Presidential election both nationally and in swing states.

    It's impossible to answer hypothetical questions. That's why they are called hypothetical. What is possible is to research things after the fact and make conclusions about what actually happened. And what happened is thousands of Bernie supporters in three critical swing states switched to Donald and gave him the Presidency.

    Maybe they didn't realize their protest vote would actually change the election outcome, but that is a moot point now. Their protest vote did change the election outcome and we are now living with the outcome of their decision to vote for Donald.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Chet Ruminski Wrote: You said you hold them solely responsible.

    "They are terrible human beings who are solely responsible for Donald being our President."

    And?? I hold them solely responsible for Donald being President.

    I believe they are terrible human beings who handed the election to Donald.

    My saying that does not mean I'm a militant who wants to "round them all up and do something bad to them." It simply means that I blame them for Donald being President. Period. End of sentence.

    Chet Ruminski Wrote: The purpose of this thread is to show " you" that Donald is President because a stupid campaign elected him president. 77,744 votes made Donald President.

    My response to that is pointing out that 77,744 "Bernie or bust" voters are the people who gave a reality TV show star the keys to our nuclear codes.

    Bernie, a self-identified "Independent" tried to become the Democratic nominee for President of the United States. A huge majority of Democratic primary voters said thanks, but no thanks. Instead of learning to accept defeat and coalesce around the person the people chose to be the Democratic nominee, Bernie or bust people decided to sabotage the election out of pure spite.

    They got what they wished for and Donald is now our President. Thanks, Bernie or bust voters. Job well done!

    Chet Ruminski Wrote: Single payer would show that Democrats - care about people. Opposition to single payer shows disdain for human life.

    Dear God. I can't help but point out the irony of your hatred against Hillary. The person you loathe with every fiber of your being also happens to be the one woman who worked her ass off to make single-payer a reality two decades ago.

    Edit/Update: Why did you delete your thread? You copy and pasted this thread from earlier and then deleted it after I responded to it.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
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    Pensacola, FL
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    Edit/Update: Why did you delete your thread? You copy and pasted this thread from earlier and then deleted it after I responded to it.

    I am mostly using my cell phone. I probably thought I double posted. I would only delete for technical reasons. Never to change somethi g no matter how stupid or in correct it might be in content.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    Quote from Hillary:I think the momentum for a single payer system will sweep the country. And regardless of the referendum outcome in California, it will be such a huge popular issue in the sense of populist issue that even if it’s not successful the first time, it will eventually be.

    She made that in 1994. I campaigned for Bill and her attempt at health care. But by 1996 it was obvious to me that Bill and Hillary had their sights on King and Queen of the world. Passing the 2000 CMFA after the destruction of welfare was the total end of Bill and Hillary for me. There is no possible congruence of Bill/Hillary and the working people. People that continue to support Bill and Hillary do so for reasons that elude me.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Kenosha, WI
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    On NBC Today this morning blaming Comey for her loss. The email scandal she created and hammered by con media.

    Sanders in the picture again, touting single payer. Which ain't gonna' happen, R president and R congress.

    Why don't they both drift into obscurity for about 6 years, and not run again for anything, I want to see someone different for a real change.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
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    Portland, OR
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    Dockadams Wrote: On NBC Today this morning blaming Comey for her loss. The email scandal she created and hammered by con media.

    The media over hyped her e-mail "scandal" to the nth degree, but it was all about nothing, especially since the vast majority of Republican and Democratic members of Congress do the exact same thing.

    What Clinton had going against her is that the rules governing e-mails are as antiquated as the first personal computer that came out decades ago. Our government hasn't figured out a way to adapt to the ever changing technologies and our laws are so outdated that it's laughable.

    All the media did was allow the Republicans to turn it into something far, far bigger than it actually was and unfortunately it worked.

    Dockadams Wrote: Sanders in the picture again, touting single payer. Which ain't gonna' happen, R president and R congress.

    Yea, it's easy to come out in favor of single-payer when there's zero chance of it becoming a reality for a minimum of three years, if not longer.

    Democrats need to be very wary about lining up behind single-payer as a wedge issue. A solid majority of Americans are still against single-payer:

    I don't pay attention to the "somewhat favor" number because Americans are notoriously skittish about major changes to healthcare. So 53% of Americans strongly and somewhat favor single-payer, but what do you think will happen to that percentage once the Republican machine kicks their opposition to "socialized medicine" into high gear? I can already see the commercials they'd come up with.

    It's easy to come up with a single-payer plan that has zero chance of passing for the next three to seven years, but let's see how much Democrats push it in states it polls horrendously in. I have a feeling Senators Heidi Heitkamp, Joe Manchin, and Joe Donnelly would rather talk about anything other than this right now.

    Dockadams Wrote: Why don't they both drift into obscurity for about 6 years, and not run again for anything, I want to see someone different for a real change.

    Meh - I'm all for her coming out with her book. A solid majority of Americans voted for her to be our President and many of them probably want to hear what she thinks about the 2016 election. She's never going to run again, so there's no need for us to stress about her book tour.

    Bernie is another story. The Democratic Party aligning behind Bernie will be at our great peril. Bernie polls really well on the liberal coasts, but he is a pariah in the counties and states Democrats must win in order to take back the House, Senate, and White House.

    That's why I think Bernie would be a great mayor or governor. He should take his revolution to Burlington or Montpelier, Vermont because he'd have a far better chance of making it a reality there than he ever will at the national level.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
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    Portland, OR
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    Chet Ruminski Wrote: She made that in 1994. I campaigned for Bill and her attempt at health care. But by 1996 it was obvious to me that Bill and Hillary had their sights on King and Queen of the world.

    This is absurd.

    Could it be possible they stopped talking about universal healthcare by 1996 because it was an election year and the single-payer healthcare bill that the Congress rejected brought about the Gingrich revolution in 1994? Clinton was trying to win reelection and maybe, just maybe talking about single-payer again wasn't the best idea.

    Seriously man...you have a pathological hatred of this family. They are human beings just like you and everyone else. I kind of feel bad for you because it must be exhausting to hate someone you never have and never will meet so much.

    Take a deep breath. Inhale and now exhale. Everything is going to be alright.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Kenosha, WI
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    I'm glad you wrote it Jared, not all Americans want single payer, not all want healthcare shoveled onto them by big government either. Even if Americans were forced into single payer, there's still a premium to pay, plus deductibles, plus prescriptions. If anyone thinks that isn't true, they should ask someone who has Medicare. If I chose Medicare for me, my premium right now would be over $200 a month, I would still need to pick up the 20% of what Medicare doesn't pay, this thing Sanders is talking about IS NOT FREE. $57 Billion in defense spending would need to be trimmed back to fund single payer too, it's not going to happen, money has to come from somewhere. I wished Sanders would take a back seat or look at statistics before he goes on stumping for his single payer idea.

    The media, yes, con media helped put the torpedo into Clinton's campaign, but she also admittedly spoke of not reaching out to people who felt the government wasn't paying attention to voters in need. She all but ignored people left behind. But you know, she was smart enough not to promise stuff she knew government couldn't deliver on, as Trump did. Trump said he would save American jobs, and voters bought it hook, line and sinker. He lied. Clinton was intelligent enough to know not to lie to prospective voters. But now, voters are having some remorse for voting for a liar.

    09/14/2017 (edit)I also wanted to add to this post that under no circumstances should a government employee or anyone serving in any position of trust for our government should think it is okay to use private email for official government business, especially if it is sensitive or classified information being discussed. I hope other government people learned something from all of this which went down.

  • Liberal Democrat
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    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Yes...I agree. But I still feel that Bernie is the main reason that Hillary lost to Trump. Both Bernie and Trump pandered to the same demographic blaming China, NAFTA and trade in general plus the TPP for their economic plight. No mention of technology or market competition for the loss of their jobs. They both also promised better healthcare for all. Promises and more promises to get them elected.

    They are a lot alike when it comes to campaigning.

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    Hillary won period. Russia interfered period. Trump is criminal ,and these are facts. Our nation is being held hostage now , by criminals.

    You could not have found a worse candidate than Hillary. Anointing a carrier candidate is not a good plan. Americans want to feel like their vote counts, ironically , we now know , it does not.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Schmidt Wrote:

    Yes...I agree. But I still feel that Bernie is the main reason that Hillary lost to Trump. Both Bernie and Trump pandered to the same demographic blaming China, NAFTA and trade in general plus the TPP for their economic plight. No mention of technology or market competition for the loss of their jobs. They both also promised better healthcare for all. Promises and more promises to get them elected.

    They are a lot alike when it comes to campaigning.

    I couldn't agree more. Bernie may not have been as derogatory as Donald, but they certainly had very similar campaign themes. In short: Let's blame everyone else for everything that has ever gone wrong in our lives and not critically think about other reasons certain jobs are no longer around.

    Bernie promised as much as Donald did without ever once explaining how he would pay for anything. It'll all work out. Congress will just bow down and give him everything he wants because "it's the right thing to do." Seriously. They live in a fantasy land.