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Democrats, It's Time To Get Nasty

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  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Kenosha, WI
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    That's right fellow democrats, it's high time to get as nasty as republicans had been during Obama's 8 year tenure.

    Some democrat representatives need to stand up to Trumps lies, deceit, and overstepping his authority, just as these republicans did when Obama had the reins. It's time to start fighting fire with fire!

    youtube.com/watch?v=fnF4rQQktfs

    youtube.com/watch?v=W-A09a_gHJc

    Let's make Trump a 12 month president!

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    This is a difficult proposition. Certainly Democrats need to be more "forceful" if that's the right word. But I would not advocate doing a Joe Wilson, "You Lie" during a President's address to Congress. We need to be smart about how we can take back the messaging from Trump and Republicans without lowering ourselves to their level. I believe that hitting vulnerable members of the House and the Senate again and again (repetition works) on the key issues of the day is effective.

    Republicans need to wear their votes on Trumpcare, tax cuts for the rich, climate change, and other issues affecting ordinary Americans around their necks for all to see. And our candidates need to contrast and articulate their stands on the issues versus their opponents. The mistake many Dems made in the midterms of 2010 and 2014 is that they ran away from Obama as the Fox News narrative carried the day.

    But just blasting Trump at every turn doesn't necessarily get you votes unless you can highlight differences.

    Remember Republicans do not play fair. They play on one's emotions...fear, anger and hate. Look how they are now demonizing Comey. They will apply "anything goes" tactics using all resources of the Koctopus and Cambridge Analytica LLC. They play in the big leagues.

    Democratic candidates at the grass roots level with no political experience need to be prepared for the onslaught of attack TV and Facebook ads, many of them with little factual basis.

  • Independent
    Washington
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    Dockadams Wrote:

    That's right fellow democrats, it's high time to get as nasty as republicans had been during Obama's 8 year tenure.

    Some democrat representatives need to stand up to Trumps lies, deceit, and overstepping his authority, just as these republicans did when Obama had the reins. It's time to start fighting fire with fire!

    youtube.com/watch?v=fnF4rQQktfs

    youtube.com/watch?v=W-A09a_gHJc

    Let's make Trump a 12 month president!

    At this pace of chaos, Trump will not last 12 months. His path is currently escalating internal conflicts between him and everyone who does not stand behind him 100%. The American people will not tolerate 4 years of Trump being Trump. My perspective is that we are watching a man who hates being President, he wants out, but he has yet to find a way where he gets to be the hero that resigned.

    Most Republicans are willing to dump him at any moment, and (IMHO) most are secretly praying Trump get physically ill and resigns, leading to Pence taking over. Democrats really don't need to do anything other than let Trump be Trump, and he will drive himself out of office without any efforts to push him out.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    If the only focus is on Trump, that is a mistake. We need an all out effort at the grass roots level to elect candidates to the state houses, the governors and Congress. I know it is happening, but in many respects it shows the inexperience of the various new political movements. Montana's election of Gianforte is just one example of what can happen if Democrats don't take control of the messaging. We need to be smarter and politically astute.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Schmidt Wrote: If the only focus is on Trump, that is a mistake. We need an all out effort at the grass roots level to elect candidates to the state houses, the governors and Congress. I know it is happening, but in many respects it shows the inexperience of the various new political movements. Montana's election of Gianforte is just one example of what can happen if Democrats don't take control of the messaging. We need to be smarter and politically astute.
    Schmidt your example says it all; however "smarter" is not possible if proper "education" lacks in this country. As long as certain States are sticking to their backwards lives, nothing will change. As I said so many times if the government system stays as it is, related to voting laws as well crazy no "vetting" rules for our leaders, we will be making the same mistakes over and over again. We invited the "mob" into the White House; it will take a lot to remove them. Also the system of "oath" has to change it does not mean anything anymore. Trump already proved such with plenty of lawsuits, in which he lied under oath. Modern lie detectors should be used instead, especially when you deal with the "mob" Thus again "dumb" people stay 'dumb" in this country, FOX as well the "mob" makes sure of that.
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    By "smarter" I do not necessarily mean that we get into arguments on alternative facts. Republicans play to one's emotions (moral values mainly) and we can do likewise. As per George Lakoff:

    George Lakoff: Progressives Need to Use Language That Reflects Moral Values

    "George Lakoff: They've been working at it for over three decades. They understand the importance of morally-based framing, the importance of language, the importance of repeating language, the importance of not using the opposition's language, and the importance of an extensive communication system that operates daily everywhere, election or no election."

    "Political argument starts with moral framing - what is assumed to be right, not wrong or morally irrelevant. Conservatives and liberals differ on what is right. Real rational argument uses the logic of frames and metaphors, as well as the use of emotion in setting goals. For example, poor conservatives may care more about their moral identity as conservatives than about their financial self-interest. This is not "irrational;" it is a matter of what is most important to a given individual — moral identity or financial self-interest."

    As you may know by now, I'm a big fan of George Lakoff and quote him often in this website.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Schmidt Wrote:

    By "smarter" I do not necessarily mean that we get into arguments on alternative facts. Republicans play to one's emotions (moral values mainly) and we can do likewise. As per George Lakoff:

    George Lakoff: Progressives Need to Use Language That Reflects Moral Values

    "George Lakoff: They've been working at it for over three decades. They understand the importance of morally-based framing, the importance of language, the importance of repeating language, the importance of not using the opposition's language, and the importance of an extensive communication system that operates daily everywhere, election or no election."

    "Political argument starts with moral framing - what is assumed to be right, not wrong or morally irrelevant. Conservatives and liberals differ on what is right. Real rational argument uses the logic of frames and metaphors, as well as the use of emotion in setting goals. For example, poor conservatives may care more about their moral identity as conservatives than about their financial self-interest. This is not "irrational;" it is a matter of what is most important to a given individual — moral identity or financial self-interest."

    As you may know by now, I'm a big fan of George Lakoff and quote him often in this website.

    Sure, however as I said many times lots of your countrymen don't even know how to read or are too lazy to read or think, let alone George Lakoff. Even Trump has proven that he does not read; guess what; Fox news is all they "read" I guess the election showed clearly what area's are the "dumb" country . Only California jumps out in "brains"; it is clear that their Senators are the only one's who did read books.
  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    I like to add: People here forget that the present "mob" in our government does do everything possible to break or go around the "rules". All Trumps "cronies" follow his "example"; lying, cheating, bullying etc. Our "normal" laws never anticipated that we invited the "mob" into the White House, so our rules have become useless. It is either fight or loose.

    Example: Trump says he will will testify "under oath' 100%; I know for sure he never will, but the intimidation works for the "dumb" masses here. Furthermore he will be called an "hero" when he lies under oath by his supporters. Thus get the "lie detector" test on him.

    So Schmidt the word "smarter" can only apply if you educate this country ; right now the education is via the TV and cellphone, so that does not work; it should be an "mandatory" well thought out part of the curriculum in schools.

  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    Dock, I agree with you that a new effective approach is not only needed but long overdue. We can be who were and be the rug that gets walked on or we can make a pledge to govern. We have plenty of examples of failure but no clear path forward. I remain hopeful.
  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Kenosha, WI
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    Someone please repair me! I strongly disagree with some of you who say being like the republicans calling out a president on his lies is wrong at a congressional address. I think democrat representatives need to bristle up as we'd say in the old days, they need to grow a spine and stand up to Trump's and the GOP's lies, one of which is his proposal for a wall, another on his healthcare (it'll be better than Obama's).

    C'mon you guys, you know these are outright lies and deception. If I were a representative like Pelosi, I wouldn't just be saying the healthcare bill proposed doesn't go far enough, I'd be standing in front of the cameras calling the man a liar, our democrats need to stop sugar coating this presidency, and need to begin calling him out for what he really is, a pathological liar. I've heard enough of this SOB's bullcrap.

    The video link is John Boehner who told Harry Reid to go F himself, this was the beginning of the republican incivility.

    youtube.com/watch?v=5vk8SUBEVZM

    Dick Cheney also used the F word telling a democrat representative to go F himself too. so, republican civil discourse has been around for quite awhile, and democrats have been laying down like asphalt and been rolled over like a steel wheel roller. It's time to stop laying down for the prez and GOP.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Just to clarify. I have no problem with our Congress persons calling out Trump's lies. But there is a difference between shouting out "you lie" during a nationwide presidential address to Congress and telling reporters that the president lied. It was perfectly acceptable for James Comey, a private citizen, to call out Trump's lies in the manner in which he did under questioning by the Senate Intelligence Committee. But it would not be acceptable for any member of Congress to do a "cat call" denigrating a fellow member with the F word or N word while speaking on the floor of their respective chambers. It is just not worthy of the institution.

    In any case, these are emotional responses showing anger and hate. I want my elected members to Congress to be thinking critically and not engaging in hate rhetoric. I know many on the right (and some on the left) do indeed engage in this behavior, but I would like to think that Democrats are more cool headed.

    President Obama was my role model in that regard.

  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    Discretion and civility can be coupled with a consistent and high pressure refusal to accept the garbage that's been served by this administration. We have been far too accustomed to being the mature politically correct party. Obviously those are great characteristics but 20 - 30 % of this country see it as weakness and that kicked Chihuahua cowering in the corner may be correct in it's indignation but the message that should be taken is to not just accept what was served to you without questions. We need to discover how to strongly challenge and until we do we can get quite comfortable with our new party label: Minority. Weakness is not inspiring.

    Dock, You're correct. I think perhaps a testosterone supplement is needed. Our party is better but we suck at successful delivery of our better message. Thus Trump can do anything and everything and we can only make comments to the news. We control nothing.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    TJ Wrote:

    Discretion and civility can be coupled with a consistent and high pressure refusal to accept the garbage that's been served by this administration. We have been far too accustomed to being the mature politically correct party. Obviously those are great characteristics but 20 - 30 % of this country see it as weakness and that kicked Chihuahua cowering in the corner may be correct in it's indignation but the message that should be taken is to not just accept what was served to you without questions. We need to discover how to strongly challenge and until we do we can get quite comfortable with our new party label: Minority. Weakness is not inspiring.

    Dock, You're correct. I think perhaps a testosterone supplement is needed. Our party is better but we suck at successful delivery of our better message. Thus Trump can do anything and everything and we can only make comments to the news. We control nothing.

    Tony absolutely correct; but "nice words" don't cut it right now, since the "mob" is in power. Trumps "under oath" words don't have any truth in it; he's used to lie under oath as do his cronies like Sessions etc. May be we need Elliot Ness to wipe out the "mob". Furthermore Trumps "mob lawyer" is asking $10,000 p/hr (and provides "lies" for it); I don't hope he's charging the taxpayer for it; but would not doubt it, corruption and lying is the game.
  • Independent
    Washington
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    Its a very slippy slope to match dirty politics with equal or great dirty politic. Since Trump loves to lie, and it has proven politically effective for him, it becomes mutual suicide for those who oppose him to using the same tactics such as lying.

    Let take the 50s - 60s civil rights movement. The gut level response for minorities was to fight oppression through violence (What we now call terrorism), but MLK lead the effort to fight back through civil disobedience, and in a very short period of time caused most racist laws to fall. On the other hand, if MLK had been a militant leader, we easily could have become a nation like the mid east groups of people are constantly using military weapons against each other, in their own country. We don't have that, but its easy to see how we could have come that way if we took the low road, rather than seek to out a higher state of being as a country.

  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    No dirty politics just not a weak submissive alternative party.

    Demographics. Get 64 % of the forgotten about voters under a descriptive umbrella. Poll them to see where and how often they get "News". Facebook has 1 billion downloads and people want instant gratification. We shouldn't be like the Republicans but we should be ready willing and able to disagree on Healthcare, defense, social programs, trade, immigration, and 8 other important topics. Every single Democrat should be in a rush to disagree with constituents when it helps get the party message on CNN. We need to be arguably the best choice. We are not selling as well as the Con man who is self absorbed and a child who can't leave Twitter alone. We need to receive unofficial leadership from Mr. Obama or whomever is the absolute best at effective communication to establish a new and improved platform. We need an attack plan because mid term elections are around the corner and because this administration is charting their own course. We need to be opposition on topics that effectively hurt citizens.

    94% of this country is aware that violence solves nothing. Hopefully most of the rest will be reasonable.