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The threat of war with North Korea

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  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    We have discussed North Korea in other threads, but with the situation and war of words seeming to escalate, I thought I would make a separate thread on what could be a major military engagement at any moment.

    New York Times, Aprile 17, 2017: China Warns of ‘Storm Clouds Gathering’ in U.S.-North Korea Standoff

    HONG KONG — China warned on Friday that tensions on the Korean Peninsula could run out of control, after North Korea said it could test a nuclear weapon whenever its top leader, Kim Jong-un, decided, and as an American naval group neared the peninsula in a show of resolve.

    “The United States and South Korea and North Korea are engaging in tit for tat, with swords drawn and bows bent, and there have been storm clouds gathering,” China’s foreign minister, Wang Yi, said in Beijing, according to Xinhua, the state news agency.

    As we have discussed in another thread, we cannot be sure if Trump is bluffing or if Kim Jung-in is bluffing. Whatever, it's a very dangerous game...

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Also from the NYT article the Chinese foreign minister cautioned both sides:

    “We urge all sides to no longer engage in mutual provocation and threats, whether through words or deeds, and don’t push the situation to the point where it can’t be turned around and gets out of hand,” Mr. Wang said after meeting with his visiting French counterpart, Jean-Marc Ayrault, according to Xinhua.

    “No matter who it is, if they let war break out on the peninsula, they must shoulder that historical culpability and pay the corresponding price for this,” Mr. Wang said."

    Trump would do well to heed Mr. Wang's words. The Chinese understand Kim Jung-un much better than Trump and Mad Dog Mattis. They also understand Trump quite well...maybe better than many Americans.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Schmidt, the total stupidity of Trump is unbelievable. Obama never would have "provoked" N.Korea. Don't we have wars enough? Right now because of Trump we have gotten more enemy's than ever. My guess is throwing "huge bombs" will make our enemy's only madder than hell. All "action" creates an "reaction"; Trump has not yet learned that. With how many countries do we have "disputes" and "military" actions? Add Korea, then I bet all the social things here are no longer feasible, because all the money will disappear into the "army". No more "infrastructure, let alone "healthcare" etc.. Trump's "army" and his "generals" and "billionaires" of course will profit from new wars, not us.

    But yeah this is what this country voted for; congratulations Hitler nation.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    President Obama apparently warned Trump that North Korea could likely be his biggest test as President.

    We've found ourselves in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" conundrum when it comes to North Korea.

    Should we allow them to hold our country hostage with the threat of a nuclear warhead taking out Las Angeles, San Francisco, or Seattle? What message does that send to our allies in the region?

    Then again, if Donald does launch a preemptive strike against North Korea then the thousands of warheads aimed at South Korea and Japan will be let loose and likely kill tens of thousands of people, including American soldiers stationed in those countries.

    I honestly don't know what we should do. I am against a rogue nation being able to hold us hostage with the threat of wiping out one of our major cities on the west coast, but I'm also against preemptively striking a country that hasn't hit us first.

  • Independent
    Washington
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    Schmidt Wrote:

    Also from the NYT article the Chinese foreign minister cautioned both sides:

    “We urge all sides to no longer engage in mutual provocation and threats, whether through words or deeds, and don’t push the situation to the point where it can’t be turned around and gets out of hand,” Mr. Wang said after meeting with his visiting French counterpart, Jean-Marc Ayrault, according to Xinhua.

    “No matter who it is, if they let war break out on the peninsula, they must shoulder that historical culpability and pay the corresponding price for this,” Mr. Wang said."

    Trump would do well to heed Mr. Wang's words. The Chinese understand Kim Jung-un much better than Trump and Mad Dog Mattis. They also understand Trump quite well...maybe better than many Americans.

    What I think is frustrating for us and a vast majority of the world is that we are watching two extremely unpredictable and immature leaders willing to play a game of chicken with 1000s, if not millions of lives.

    My thinking is that China will step in if they feel either side will escalate to the point of massive destruction. NK is likely to run to China for help if they perceive the US is going to turn NK into a wasteland (which we can). China will likely offer Trump some kind of win, even if its nothing more than a BS press release praising Trump on his amazing leadership as a skilled political negotiator to end a war before it began. And in turn, China will stop NK from the further launching of test missles in the North China sea.

    Trump doesn't want war, he wants\needs all the love\praise\etc that comes from the short term benefits. Remember how Bush was praised in the weeks leading up to the Iraq war, and even the first couple of weeks of the invasion, and then how it went downhill very badly because Iraq became a mess for remaining of his presidency? It is hard to imagine things not being a huge mess for trump if the tries to take out NK and have to face the China's refusal to let the US take control of both NK & SK.

  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    I agree. When we invaded Iraq to put down Hussein, I watched CNN for so many hours. It seemed noble because he had invaded Kuwait.

    N. Korea shouldn't be able to hold us hostage to an idea or presumed threat. I thought N. Korea had unreliable service from the rockets used in previous tests. Not sure they are yet a legitimate threat. Trump loves a fear factor. He will not eliminate them but he will raise the defense budget every year he's in office.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Kenosha, WI
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    TJ Wrote:

    I agree. When we invaded Iraq to put down Hussein, I watched CNN for so many hours. It seemed noble because he had invaded Kuwait.

    N. Korea shouldn't be able to hold us hostage to an idea or presumed threat. I thought N. Korea had unreliable service from the rockets used in previous tests. Not sure they are yet a legitimate threat. Trump loves a fear factor. He will not eliminate them but he will raise the defense budget every year he's in office.

    All republicans like using the fear factor on American citizens, if you recall watching Bush, Rice and Cheney (aka Darth Vader) on special reports in the run up to the Iraq invasion, with quotes like "smoking gun" "mushroom cloud" and the like, we were all duped like college freshmen, Iraq never had inter-continental ballistic missile capabilities (WMD's), although the American public was lead to believe they did. They played their fear factor BS on us. Although Saddam did use mass kill weapons on his neighbors, he didn't possess weapons that were long range. The Bush administration fed our congress with a pack of lies.

    I think the reason NK leader is doing this is so he can remain relevant in the world, he's a man with a bad haircut, acting like a 5 year old spoiled brat, he want's attention. Trump is one in the same.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    It is quite simple as Jared said; it certainly should not be an"action" which we should take. Military posture is the most stupid thing we can do. Like I said that country is half an world away from us ,why meddle with it. It borders China so they should deal with it not us. Our stupidity by having forces in S.Korea since 1953 costing by now trillions since then, never solved anything. The only thing is sit around the table and talk things out.; not with threats and bullying. That is why we instituted the UN; they should deal with it; not Trumps dictatorship, so he can score some "ratings" points over dead bodies. The US still has not learned from all their "lost" wars since WWII.
  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    My father was wounded in Korea before I was thought of. To revisit it decades later is insane. There's probably a psychological study about those find security and subsequent happiness via this twisted militaristic path. The opportunist conman will use it for any gain.
  • Center Left
    Independent
    Central, FL
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    China suggested we relax with North Korea. N. Korea their Missile launch failed again.

    mobile.nytimes.com/2017/04/15/world/asi...

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Kenosha, WI
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    My wife's uncle's plane was shot down, his remains have never been returned. I don't think we need to be at war again in the same place. American foreign policy sucks, always has and probably always will.

    koreanwar.org/html/units1/usmc/vmf212.h...

    Dear Mr. Barker:

    I reached your "LOOKING FOR- KOREA" through the Korean War Homepage on
    the WWW. I am interested in contacting anyone who may have served with
    my father Capt. JOHN D. NADELHOFFER. Here are some statistics and a
    brief history.

    John (Jack) D. Nadelhoffer, Captain, US Marine Corp Reserve
    Home: Gurnee, Illinois
    Service number: 037971
    First Marine Air Wing
    Marine Air Group 12
    Fighter Squad #212
    KIA: January 26, 1952

    Capt. Nadelhoffer flew close air support missions off the U.S.S Badoeng
    Straights ("jeep" class aircraft carrier). After his F4U-Corsair was
    hit by anti-aircraft fire over the Korean mainland, he attempted to
    return to his carrier but was forced to bail out over a small island
    (Korin Do) on North Korea's western coast. His wingmate thought that he
    was hit by the tail wing of his Corsair, but in any case his parachute
    never opened. The island was held by U.N. forces at the time and his
    family was informed shortly afterward that he was buried by friendly
    forces in a "temporary" grave. After North Korea recovered the island,
    his body was never returned. It is officially classified as "non-
    recoverable", although we suspect that his remains would be recoverable
    if we had more normal relations with North Korea. Capt. Nadelhoffer
    left a young widow (Elizabeth, then 22) and a son (Knute John, then 19
    months). His second son, John D. Nadelhoffer, was born 1 month after
    his death.

    If you served with Capt. Nadelhoffer, or knew him during his Korean War
    service, I would very much like to hear from you. My address is
    Knute J. Nadelhoffer
    58 Oakwood Ave
    Falmouth, MA 02450
    508-548-1642

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    "Lovely and honorable it is to die for one's country." -- Horace 65 - 8 BC, Odes

    As long as mankind has existed, we have found ways to wage war. The reasons vary from rational and irrational actors to religious ideology to ideological ethnic cleansing, to anger and revenge, and now preemptive and preventive wars. But also more significantly the worldviews of the decision-makers versus the populace.

    "I’m a war president. I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign-policy matters with war on my mind. Again, I wish it wasn’t true, but it is true. And the American people need to know they got a president who sees the world the way it is. And I see dangers that exist, and it’s important for us to deal with them." -- George W. Bush, February 7, 2004 interview with NBC's Tim Russert

    I agree with wwjd and others above: Donald Trump may not have started out as a "war president" but the adulation that this narcissist gets from shooting a few missiles and dropping a big bomb feeds his ego. Perhaps like Bush before him whose ratings shot up after 9/11 and his decision to go to war against the evil Saddam Hussein, Trump having taken action against the evil Kim Jung-un will also one day bask in the glory of being a "war president".

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Schmidt Wrote:

    "Lovely and honorable it is to die for one's country." -- Horace 65 - 8 BC, Odes

    As long as mankind has existed, we have found ways to wage war. The reasons vary from rational and irrational actors to religious ideology to ideological ethnic cleansing, to anger and revenge, and now preemptive and preventive wars. But also more significantly the worldviews of the decision-makers versus the populace.

    "I’m a war president. I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign-policy matters with war on my mind. Again, I wish it wasn’t true, but it is true. And the American people need to know they got a president who sees the world the way it is. And I see dangers that exist, and it’s important for us to deal with them." -- George W. Bush, February 7, 2004 interview with NBC's Tim Russert

    I agree with wwjd and others above: Donald Trump may not have started out as a "war president" but the adulation that this narcissist gets from shooting a few missiles and dropping a big bomb feeds his ego. Perhaps like Bush before him whose ratings shot up after 9/11 and his decision to go to war against the evil Saddam Hussein, Trump having taken action against the evil Kim Jung-un will also one day bask in the glory of being a "war president".

    I can't find the thread, where someone gave an list of all the wars we've been in. Yes this is the worst country in the world in mind and action related to starting wars all over during its short history. An very sick mentality indeed especially of the "white christian superior race" teachings . It is time we realize that militarism does not help you to get an better life; neither does fanatic religion.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    Declare a no fly condition for weapons carrying rockets. No harm to people but when one is being prepared for operational status neutralize it. Laser or small bomb.

    jaredsxtn said:

    "but I'm also against preemptively striking a country that hasn't hit us first."

    Since a nuclear offensive first strike is catastrophic then consider a condition of imminent operational status to be the first hit. Respond with a limited offensive hit to the delivery system. There is probably enough Reagan STar wars technology left to concentrate on ground targets.

  • Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Dutch Wrote:

    I can't find the thread, where someone gave an list of all the wars we've been in. Yes this is the worst country in the world in mind and action related to starting wars all over during its short history. An very sick mentality indeed especially of the "white christian superior race" teachings . It is time we realize that militarism does not help you to get an better life; neither does fanatic religion.

    Dutch -- This is not that particular list, but it might be what you are looking for?

    Wikipedia: List of wars involving the United States