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Marches! Then What?

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  • Democrat
    Julian, CA
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    These marches, protests and demonstrations opposing America's Fascist Government and its abuses of power are vital and important but unless these activities evolve into political actions they will not gain the goals desired. Every marcher, protestor and demonstrator and disgusted, angry citizen must find out the voting record of their Representatives in the U.S. Congress and what they are doing and not doing and whether or not they deserve to be reelected and if not they must find a candidate that will fight for their goals and issues they support and also campaign and work to get that candidate elected.
  • Center Left
    TJ
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    Independent
    Central, FL
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    Two for two. You're correct. I am angered that just because there's no active political campaigns that the party see's no reason to be active and proceeding with a purpose and plans. Virtually looking as weak as last November and no effort showing anything resembling leadership.

    Take a minute because there's a 5 per day limit on new threads.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Throwing words like fascism and robber barons around willy-nilly only makes people who would otherwise be sympathetic to your cause walk away.

    We are not a fascist state. The United States isn't descending into chaos and anarchy. The world isn't falling apart at the seams.

    The courts have already shown Donald that he doesn't have unchecked authority. And they did so in record time. If the Republicans don't want to be a check on him then the people will vote them out in two years.

    Take a deep breath. Let's not stoop to the level of our crazy conspiracy theorist uncles who are convinced a secret cabal is running the world.

    Reason and fact based arguments, while not sexy, are vitally important now more than ever.

  • Independent
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:

    Throwing words like fascism and robber barons around willy-nilly only makes people who would otherwise be sympathetic to your cause walk away.

    We are not a fascist state. The United States isn't descending into chaos and anarchy. The world isn't falling apart at the seams.

    The courts have already shown Donald that he doesn't have unchecked authority. And they did so in record time. If the Republicans don't want to be a check on him then the people will vote them out in two years.

    Take a deep breath. Let's not stoop to the level of our crazy conspiracy theorist uncles who are convinced a secret cabal is running the world.

    Reason and fact based arguments, while not sexy, are vitally important now more than ever.

    Fascist state? Probably depends upon who (whom?) you talk to. Are corporations running the country? Of course not. Is Capital running the country? Define "running the country". We have had 36 years of economic theology that originated out of the fevered mind of Von Hayek and the Austrian school as well as the Chicago school. Yet this theology has yet to be shown the door despite its failure. And by failure we must use the only reasonable definitions which devolve down to upward transfer of wealth combined with a financial system that blew up every decade. We cannot speak of capitalism and democracy as though they are compatible. They are not. Particularly the so-called free market virus version of capitalism is not compatible with democracy. Market justice and social justice are diametrically opposed. The Republican Party is a party of market justice. They play upon social issues to slip through an economically violent agenda. The Democratic Party prior to the alleged Bernie Revolution was only slightly less a market justice party. Look at Bill Clinton's actions regarding welfare. Look at the ACA. I grant that a public option was likely doomed to defeat seeing how the electorate is blind, deaf and dumb but the ACA while providing healthcare payment for millions more is still a boon overall for insurance and pharma.

    As for robber barons? I don't know about you but I don't know what else to call the Kochs, the Waltons and the various billionaire hedge fund guys.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    Lonely absolutely correct. Jared has the habit to "paint" everything over like he did with Hillary. He had it wrong that time as well this time.

    The truth is that as stated Trump and his cronies want an "dictorial" government; Bannon and Miller clearly indicated such.

    The "prove" is there already with the Muslim ban, which was an "test" to see how far they could go. The checks and balances are being "hollowed" out on all sides. ( undermining oversight; undermining laws; undermining the election system; undermining the intelligence units etc. this is only an start) Once he gets all the other 2 government "branches of control" dancing to his tune, then an dictatorship is not far away. I've said so many times that an "one" party control is extremely dangerous, what is the case now.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    TJ Wrote:

    Two for two. You're correct. I am angered that just because there's no active political campaigns that the party see's no reason to be active and proceeding with a purpose and plans. Virtually looking as weak as last November and no effort showing anything resembling leadership.

    Take a minute because there's a 5 per day limit on new threads.

    The problem is that there is no "guidance" from the DNC; the party is divided and has no clear direction. So the "bully" gets what he wants; "protests" mean nothing for him, if nothing actually can be done to stop him, because the other "party" is in disarray.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Dutch Wrote: Lonely absolutely correct. Jared has the habit to "paint" everything over like he did with Hillary. He had it wrong that time as well this time.

    Not entirely. She did win the popular vote by 3 million...

    Dutch Wrote: The truth is that as stated Trump and his cronies want an "dictorial" government; Bannon and Miller clearly indicated such.

    The "prove" is there already with the Muslim ban, which was an "test" to see how far they could go. The checks and balances are being "hollowed" out on all sides. ( undermining oversight; undermining laws; undermining the election system; undermining the intelligence units etc. this is only an start) Once he gets all the other 2 government "branches of control" dancing to his tune, then an dictatorship is not far away. I've said so many times that an "one" party control is extremely dangerous, what is the case now.

    All I pointed out is that you start losing rationally minded people when words like fascism and robber barons are carelessly used.

    I get the anger and I get the passion, but claiming that our government is run by greedy robber barons while at the same time being a fascist dictatorship just isn't based in reality.

    Not just that, but they are two entirely different arguments. Capitalistic "robber barons" and fascist dictators wouldn't mix very well.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    lonely bird Wrote: Fascist state? Probably depends upon who (whom?) you talk to. Are corporations running the country? Of course not. Is Capital running the country? Define "running the country". We have had 36 years of economic theology that originated out of the fevered mind of Von Hayek and the Austrian school as well as the Chicago school. Yet this theology has yet to be shown the door despite its failure. And by failure we must use the only reasonable definitions which devolve down to upward transfer of wealth combined with a financial system that blew up every decade. We cannot speak of capitalism and democracy as though they are compatible. They are not. Particularly the so-called free market virus version of capitalism is not compatible with democracy. Market justice and social justice are diametrically opposed. The Republican Party is a party of market justice. They play upon social issues to slip through an economically violent agenda. The Democratic Party prior to the alleged Bernie Revolution was only slightly less a market justice party. Look at Bill Clinton's actions regarding welfare. Look at the ACA. I grant that a public option was likely doomed to defeat seeing how the electorate is blind, deaf and dumb but the ACA while providing healthcare payment for millions more is still a boon overall for insurance and pharma.

    Economic theory and the history of capitalism in America isn't what I responded to. I was simply suggesting that throwing around loaded words like fascism and robber barons without actually taking the time to understand if they are accurate clouds a conversation and turns otherwise open minded people away.

    Fascism and capitalism (or should I say robber barons?) are entirely different things. The last person a multinational corporation would want to work with is a fascist dictator. So saying we are a fascist state while at the same time saying that robber barons run everything literally makes no sense.

    lonely bird Wrote: As for robber barons? I don't know about you but I don't know what else to call the Kochs, the Waltons and the various billionaire hedge fund guys.

    Andrew Carnegie, John Rockefeller, J. P. Morgan, Charles Schwab, Marshall Field, and countless other real robber barons of the late 19th and early 20th Century would laugh in your face if they were equated with the Koch Brothers and the Walton family.

    I am no fan of Koch Industries, so I don't buy any of their products. I also am no fan of Walmart, so I don't shop there.

    That's entirely different than Andrew Carnegie cornering the steel market or John Rockefeller having monopoly of our nations oil supply.

    This is the point I'm trying to get across. Yes. There are bad people out there who take advantage of our system. But calling any rich person a robber baron or a major political party fascist just muddies the argument and turns people away.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Pensacola, FL
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    People that actively protest are different than people that negotiate. A successful movement has to have both plus a coalescing leader. Improper demonstrations can turn more people away than recruit.

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    I've wondered what the civil rights movement of the 60s would have been without MLK, who took his lead from Gandhi. Without him insisting on non-violent resistance, the moment could have gone much differently where those who were oppressed demanding equal status by showing they could be just as violent\cruel\intolerant as those who demanded they stay second class citizens.
  • Independent
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    lonely bird Wrote: Fascist state? Probably depends upon who (whom?) you talk to. Are corporations running the country? Of course not. Is Capital running the country? Define "running the country". We have had 36 years of economic theology that originated out of the fevered mind of Von Hayek and the Austrian school as well as the Chicago school. Yet this theology has yet to be shown the door despite its failure. And by failure we must use the only reasonable definitions which devolve down to upward transfer of wealth combined with a financial system that blew up every decade. We cannot speak of capitalism and democracy as though they are compatible. They are not. Particularly the so-called free market virus version of capitalism is not compatible with democracy. Market justice and social justice are diametrically opposed. The Republican Party is a party of market justice. They play upon social issues to slip through an economically violent agenda. The Democratic Party prior to the alleged Bernie Revolution was only slightly less a market justice party. Look at Bill Clinton's actions regarding welfare. Look at the ACA. I grant that a public option was likely doomed to defeat seeing how the electorate is blind, deaf and dumb but the ACA while providing healthcare payment for millions more is still a boon overall for insurance and pharma.

    Economic theory and the history of capitalism in America isn't what I responded to. I was simply suggesting that throwing around loaded words like fascism and robber barons without actually taking the time to understand if they are accurate clouds a conversation and turns otherwise open minded people away.

    Fascism and capitalism (or should I say robber barons?) are entirely different things. The last person a multinational corporation would want to work with is a fascist dictator. So saying we are a fascist state while at the same time saying that robber barons run everything literally makes no sense.

    lonely bird Wrote: As for robber barons? I don't know about you but I don't know what else to call the Kochs, the Waltons and the various billionaire hedge fund guys.

    Andrew Carnegie, John Rockefeller, J. P. Morgan, Charles Schwab, Marshall Field, and countless other real robber barons of the late 19th and early 20th Century would laugh in your face if they were equated with the Koch Brothers and the Walton family.

    I am no fan of Koch Industries, so I don't buy any of their products. I also am no fan of Walmart, so I don't shop there.

    That's entirely different than Andrew Carnegie cornering the steel market or John Rockefeller having monopoly of our nations oil supply.

    This is the point I'm trying to get across. Yes. There are bad people out there who take advantage of our system. But calling any rich person a robber baron or a major political party fascist just muddies the argument and turns people away.

  • Independent
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    lonely bird Wrote: Fascist state? Probably depends upon who (whom?) you talk to. Are corporations running the country? Of course not. Is Capital running the country? Define "running the country". We have had 36 years of economic theology that originated out of the fevered mind of Von Hayek and the Austrian school as well as the Chicago school. Yet this theology has yet to be shown the door despite its failure. And by failure we must use the only reasonable definitions which devolve down to upward transfer of wealth combined with a financial system that blew up every decade. We cannot speak of capitalism and democracy as though they are compatible. They are not. Particularly the so-called free market virus version of capitalism is not compatible with democracy. Market justice and social justice are diametrically opposed. The Republican Party is a party of market justice. They play upon social issues to slip through an economically violent agenda. The Democratic Party prior to the alleged Bernie Revolution was only slightly less a market justice party. Look at Bill Clinton's actions regarding welfare. Look at the ACA. I grant that a public option was likely doomed to defeat seeing how the electorate is blind, deaf and dumb but the ACA while providing healthcare payment for millions more is still a boon overall for insurance and pharma.

    Economic theory and the history of capitalism in America isn't what I responded to. I was simply suggesting that throwing around loaded words like fascism and robber barons without actually taking the time to understand if they are accurate clouds a conversation and turns otherwise open minded people away.

    Fascism and capitalism (or should I say robber barons?) are entirely different things. The last person a multinational corporation would want to work with is a fascist dictator. So saying we are a fascist state while at the same time saying that robber barons run everything literally makes no sense.

    lonely bird Wrote: As for robber barons? I don't know about you but I don't know what else to call the Kochs, the Waltons and the various billionaire hedge fund guys.

    Andrew Carnegie, John Rockefeller, J. P. Morgan, Charles Schwab, Marshall Field, and countless other real robber barons of the late 19th and early 20th Century would laugh in your face if they were equated with the Koch Brothers and the Walton family.

    I am no fan of Koch Industries, so I don't buy any of their products. I also am no fan of Walmart, so I don't shop there.

    That's entirely different than Andrew Carnegie cornering the steel market or John Rockefeller having monopoly of our nations oil supply.

    This is the point I'm trying to get across. Yes. There are bad people out there who take advantage of our system. But calling any rich person a robber baron or a major political party fascist just muddies the argument and turns people away.

    Screwed up my response so I will try again.

    We'll start with this: real robber barons vs what, fake robber barons. Yea, the Kochs are real robber barons. So are the Waltons. That they didn't corner the oil business a la John D. or the steel business like Carnegie means nothing. Their goals of distortion of the political economy are very real. And their positions regarding labor harken back to those of the late 19th century. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it isn't a penguin.

    As for corporations working with dictators look into United Fruit. Look into much of the oil business in Western Africa. Look into the oil business in the Middle East or Russia. Hell, yes corporations will work with fascists. But the actual question is looking at it from the national as opposed to international perspective. Do you think that capital, and that is the way it must be viewed because corporations are merely the vehicle, does not seek to distort the political process known as democracy? Of course it does. It is the Von Hayekization of America. It is the shift from tax state to debt state to consolidation state with market justice reigning. That is the very definition of fascism.

  • Independent
    Ft.myers, FL
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    jaredsxtn Wrote:
    Dutch Wrote: Lonely absolutely correct. Jared has the habit to "paint" everything over like he did with Hillary. He had it wrong that time as well this time.

    Not entirely. She did win the popular vote by 3 million...

    Dutch Wrote: The truth is that as stated Trump and his cronies want an "dictorial" government; Bannon and Miller clearly indicated such.

    The "prove" is there already with the Muslim ban, which was an "test" to see how far they could go. The checks and balances are being "hollowed" out on all sides. ( undermining oversight; undermining laws; undermining the election system; undermining the intelligence units etc. this is only an start) Once he gets all the other 2 government "branches of control" dancing to his tune, then an dictatorship is not far away. I've said so many times that an "one" party control is extremely dangerous, what is the case now.

    All I pointed out is that you start losing rationally minded people when words like fascism and robber barons are carelessly used.

    I get the anger and I get the passion, but claiming that our government is run by greedy robber barons while at the same time being a fascist dictatorship just isn't based in reality.

    Not just that, but they are two entirely different arguments. Capitalistic "robber barons" and fascist dictators wouldn't mix very well.

    Jared, I was not talking about "robber barons" but about an "one party system" which leads to "totaliarism" (dictatorship) Thus answer that.
  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    lonely bird Wrote: We'll start with this: real robber barons vs what, fake robber barons. Yea, the Kochs are real robber barons. So are the Waltons. That they didn't corner the oil business a la John D. or the steel business like Carnegie means nothing. Their goals of distortion of the political economy are very real. And their positions regarding labor harken back to those of the late 19th century. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it isn't a penguin.

    It means everything if the words we use are supposed to have meaning. Throwing out loaded, emotional words without actually caring to understand if it's an accurate depiction or not only turns people who may be sympathetic to your cause away.

    lonely bird Wrote: As for corporations working with dictators look into United Fruit. Look into much of the oil business in Western Africa. Look into the oil business in the Middle East or Russia. Hell, yes corporations will work with fascists. But the actual question is looking at it from the national as opposed to international perspective. Do you think that capital, and that is the way it must be viewed because corporations are merely the vehicle, does not seek to distort the political process known as democracy? Of course it does. It is the Von Hayekization of America. It is the shift from tax state to debt state to consolidation state with market justice reigning. That is the very definition of fascism.

    Not really.

    There's a huge difference between a dictatorship and fascism.

    A dictator doesn't have to be fascist, but fascism requires some form of dictator. The dictators multinational corporations work with are more concerned about enriching themselves and their friends while fascist dictators are more concerned about racial heritage and nationalism than multinational trade policy. The closest thing resembling a major fascist state would be Russia, but I would call Putin more of a totalitarian than a fascist.

    This is what I'm trying to get across. Words have meaning. Definitions matter. We are not a fascist dictatorship just because the Republicans are in control of the government and robber barons don't pull all the strings in our country simply because some billionaires take advantage of our tax code.

  • Strongly Liberal Democrat
    Democrat
    Portland, OR
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    Dutch Wrote: Jared, I was not talking about "robber barons" but about an "one party system" which leads to "totaliarism" (dictatorship) Thus answer that.

    One party control in our country has never led to totalitarianism. If that were the case then the Republicans would be able to void the Bill of Rights and take away our right to freely express our opinions on this website.

    We have had one party control over the Executive and Legislative Branches many times throughout our short history and yet we still kept chugging along while guaranteeing the minority the ability to protest and have their voices heard. Most recently the Democrats had full control from 2009-2011 and the Republicans had full control during separate times in George W Bush's tenure. The Democrats also had one party control from 1961-1969 while the Republicans had full control during various times in the 1950's. The list goes on and on (and on).

    So no - one party control has not and likely never will turn into totalitarianism.